Dan Kane: NCAA Rejects UNCheat Arguments in Enforcement Case

[catdance]

I don't know if the NCAA read message boards, but if they do, that might be enough to get their smug asses hung. The same goes for UL.

 

[Bkocats]

not going to count on anything though
gotta see it to believe it, for both of the cases we are discussing here

 

[nickhorvathsuxazz]

Some UNC honk on the main board is trying to say Kane got all of his information from some message board dude. I believe Kane knows as much of this mess as most UNC administrators.

It's taking me forever to get to the end of this thread because every time I get to one of your posts I...linger...

 

[jrpross_rivals]

I accept the general premise of Bilas's "outside their jurisdiction" argument, but if they don't even have the authority to rule on a bunch of classes that
a. never meet
b. have an advisor "grade" a single assignment due the whole semester
c. adjust the grade at their leisure for eligibility purposes, even if the assignment was plagiarized

...then the NCAA has literally no purpose. That's the basic baseline that should define a "student athlete".. some type of education, even a modest one.

They're sitting there patting themselves on the back that they don't let snacks get too deluxe on a recruiting trip.
Or like the OSU kid who signed a jersey in exchange for a tattoo. He's taking a tiny chunk of the millions of dollars that he's worth to the university... They came down on him for that, but far be it from them to look at the eligibility of kids who aren't learning a damn thing in either English or Swahili.

Very well said. I also find it preposterous that the NCAA can deem a kid ineligible because he went to the wrong prep school, or can even retroactively vacate an entire season because there were "questions" about one player's SAT score. But once at the university itself, they have no jurisdiction over eligibility? How does the national COLLEGIATE athletic organization have more jurisdiction over high school than college?

 

[LadyCaytIL]

I hope UL and UNC are happy with themselves. Their smugness and corruption is why Russia and China are prepping world war 3 against us..............

Dont try to tell me other wise lol

 

[downw/ball-lineD]

It's an argument in semantics at this point. If UNC can figure out some way, ANY way, for the NCAA to call this entire affair by some other name and be able to justify it, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

But if justice is served, the greatest academic/eligibility scandal in NCAA history has taken place. And yes, even hookers for recruits isn't as bad as this, though both UNC and UL should be hammered. But I digress... if the NCAA has even a SHRED of integrity regarding what it SAYS it's all about, which is STUDENT-athletes, they should give UNC the death penalty. That won't happen, but that would be justice for 30 years of academic fraud, conspiracy to commit academic fraud, and also the damage done to the lives of these student athletes. Now, I know Rashad McCants didn't care about education when he was at Chapel Hill, but he managed to get through (made the Dean's list- ha!) without receiving any education, other than being taught how to lie, cheat, and conspire, from the school. Others got the same. As I say, if the NCAA has a shred of integrity, UNC can't just get away with this. It would be a travesty and, in my mind, the NCAA would lose all credibility and cease to hold any authority in my mind and, I would wager, in the minds of ADs and coaches everywhere.

This is a wonderful post! I agree whole-heartedly. That said, I confess my utter hatred for everything UNC, so my "want" for punishment may outweigh the likelihood of actual punishment handed down by the NCAA. I can only hope that UNC's arrogance throughout this process serves as their undoing with the NCAA. I agree with the poster above, in a way, UNC's position is a total affront to everything the NCAA has claimed it stood for. Maybe (I pray) the NCAA actually fights back in this case and does the right thing.

 

[ruppcat]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article110315307.html

Hillary got away with far more serious crimes.

 

[KyFaninNC]

Hillary got away with far more serious crimes.

True Dat, but I still want UNC hammered, and their arrogant, pompous fan base in tears.

 

[*CatinIL*]

Vitale is a

 

[Blueblood410]

NCAA issues the first ever vacating of a title at Louisville, and they use that new precedent to strip 3 titles from UNC.

Laughs for days.

Unfortunately there is about a .00000001% of all this happening.

 

[kybassfan]

Face saving on part of the NCAA. This sets them up to blast the Scum of NC for lack of sucking up. The penalty is harsh. 40 lashes with a wet noodle and 10 minutes standing in the corner of smoke and mirrors. I'm guessing the tiddlywinks team at Scum NC is in deep do do if one of the winkers showed up for class unexpectedly.

Seriously, this is prep for a minor charge. The NCAA clearly lacks the nads to take a stand against the blatant disrespect of the student athlete. All hail the North Carolina way to academic hell. It is a path well trodden.

 

[TheDude1]

Just because I am not sure you all follow this... The district attorney who dropped charges on Julius N, Deb Crowder, and the tutor who was charged with being an agent is a UNC grad whose office is covered in signed UNC athletics gear. And the judge who would have presided in those cases? The son of UNCs former AD during all of this.

The whole damn state is rigged.

 

[westerncat]

Just because I am not sure you all follow this... The district attorney who dropped charges on Julius N, Deb Crowder, and the tutor who was charged with being an agent is a UNC grad whose office is covered in signed UNC athletics gear. And the judge who would have presided in those cases? The son of UNCs former AD during all of this.

The whole damn state is rigged.

Not a bit surprised, much like the Presidential election.

 

[uky8unc5]

This thing has grown legs....finally. The word down here in Tar-Hell land (from my 2 well-connected enemy friends) is that UNC-CH is stunned by the U-turn that has happened.

There is a God in Heaven!!

 

[Clive Gollings]

boo ****ing hoo. They were cheating for 30+ ****ing years. Who gives a **** how long it drags on?

They need to be water dripped to insanity. Then when they can't take it anymore, they need to be hanged, drawn and quartered.

The whole damn state is rigged.

Agree.

 

[KyFaninNC]

Just because I am not sure you all follow this... The district attorney who dropped charges on Julius N, Deb Crowder, and the tutor who was charged with being an agent is a UNC grad whose office is covered in signed UNC athletics gear. And the judge who would have presided in those cases? The son of UNCs former AD during all of this.

The whole damn state is rigged.

Has been for years untill Dan Kane showed up and started looking around. UNC has many friends and alum in very high places. UNC is like an incestuous family, they keep inbreeding and setup a protective ring.

 

[JPScott]

I accept the general premise of Bilas's "outside their jurisdiction" argument, but if they don't even have the authority to rule on a bunch of classes that
a. never meet
b. have an advisor "grade" a single assignment due the whole semester
c. adjust the grade at their leisure for eligibility purposes, even if the assignment was plagiarized

...then the NCAA has literally no purpose. That's the basic baseline that should define a "student athlete".. some type of education, even a modest one.

I agree completely that without holding schools accountable to even a modicum of academic integrity, then the NCAA serves absolutely no purpose.

But honestly I'm curious at your comment as to why you accept Bilas' "outside their jurisdiction" argument?

FWIW, I made the "outside their jurisdiction" argument with regard to Penn State (and still stand by that) because there's literally nothing in the NCAA manual which relates to what their coaches and administration did.

But academic integrity and its use toward confirming player eligibility is not only a clear part of the NCAA's rules, it's a core principle mandated and clearly stated in multiple places of their manual.

Bilas is completely wrong on this count, and I can only conclude is a paid shill who lacks integrity and has no regard for the damage to his professional reputation going forward. (either that or he's so opposed to the NCAA that he will reflexively and pathologically disagree with anything and everything they do regardless of the facts.)

 

[UKrazycat2_rivals]

Phony posturing by the NCAA to try to convince the world that they truly want to see justice here.

Phony posturing by UNCheat to act as though any penalty(s) coming from the ncaa would be too much.

All, while both sides are working overtime together to make sure minimal damages are done to either.

UNCheat= Any punishment is an outrage.
NCAA= We are fair, we really are. :flush:

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Phony posturing by the NCAA to try to convince the world that they truly want to see justice here.

Phony posturing by UNCheat to act as though any penalty(s) coming from the ncaa would be too much.

All, while both sides are working overtime together to make sure minimal damages are done to either.

UNCheat= Any punishment is an outrage.
NCAA= We are fair, we really are. :flush:

Well, that wouldn't make sense to me. Why get everyone's attention with such strongly and directly worded statements when the fire had already died down? It was set up for minimal damages, now the whole pot has been stirred again.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I agree completely that without holding schools accountable to even a modicum of academic integrity, then the NCAA serves absolutely no purpose.

But honestly I'm curious at your comment as to why you accept Bilas' "outside their jurisdiction" argument?

FWIW, I made the "outside their jurisdiction" argument with regard to Penn State (and still stand by that) because there's literally nothing in the NCAA manual which relates to what their coaches and administration did.

But academic integrity and its use toward confirming player eligibility is not only a clear part of the NCAA's rules, it's a core principle mandated and clearly stated in multiple places of their manual.

Bilas is completely wrong on this count, and I can only conclude is a paid shill who lacks integrity and has no regard for the damage to his professional reputation going forward. (either that or he's so opposed to the NCAA that he will reflexively and pathologically disagree with anything and everything they do regardless of the facts.)

I think Bilas may have simply been talking about the classes themselves. He is right, the NCAA has no direct jurisdiction over classes. However, the NCAA isn't really talking about the classes, they are talking about the intent behind the classes and the effect the classes had, a scheme to maintain eligibility. That does fall under their jurisdiction.

 

[UKrazycat2_rivals]

Well, that wouldn't make sense to me. Why get everyone's attention with such strongly and directly worded statements when the fire had already died down? It was set up for minimal damages, now the whole pot has been stirred again.

The ncaa has to make this look like they are doing the right thing all while working along side UNCheat to do as little damage as possible. Both sides already know that very little punishment (if any) is coming.

Remember the first NOA uncheat received? Keep minimizing and minimizing things long enough and it will damn near disappear. Both have the same goal; look all concerned even though the whitewash goes on and on.

 

[JPScott]

I think Bilas may have simply been talking about the classes themselves. He is right, the NCAA has no direct jurisdiction over classes. However, the NCAA isn't really talking about the classes, they are talking about the intent behind the classes and the effect the classes had, a scheme to maintain eligibility. That does fall under their jurisdiction.

This is what I call a distinction without a difference.

The problem with Bilas is that he's put his lawyer hat on and has tried to view the NCAA Manual as if it was a strict legal document, and then proceeds to try to parse and ignore the bits that doesn't square with his bidders desires.

In this case, the NCAA manual is quite clear that the organization's intent is to be built on foundation of honesty, academic integrity and sportsmanship. In other words each institution is basically held to a standard that they will act in a professional, honest and forthright manner. UNC clearly was not keeping their end of the bargain in any of those aspects.

Bilas' argument is that in his opinion there isn't a specific rule that one can cite that for example says that the school can't utilize classes that are clearly fraudulent to keep their athletes eligible, but he's ignoring the the whole basis and core principles of the organization in making this case.

Beyond that, there are specific rules which can still be applied, but he ignores. For example there's a stipulation that every year the school is required to certify to the NCAA that their athletes remain in good academic standing and are on course to graduate. Mary Willingham herself has admitted that she's submitted such paperwork knowing full well it was based on fraudulent classes!

That by itself should be enough for the NCAA to rule against UNC and their scheme to defraud athletes of an actual eduction, in favor of giving their sports teams an advantage by allowing otherwise ineligible players to play.

 

[Jkwo_rivals113955]

I agree completely that without holding schools accountable to even a modicum of academic integrity, then the NCAA serves absolutely no purpose.

But honestly I'm curious at your comment as to why you accept Bilas' "outside their jurisdiction" argument?

FWIW, I made the "outside their jurisdiction" argument with regard to Penn State (and still stand by that) because there's literally nothing in the NCAA manual which relates to what their coaches and administration did.

But academic integrity and its use toward confirming player eligibility is not only a clear part of the NCAA's rules, it's a core principle mandated and clearly stated in multiple places of their manual.

Bilas is completely wrong on this count, and I can only conclude is a paid shill who lacks integrity and has no regard for the damage to his professional reputation going forward. (either that or he's so opposed to the NCAA that he will reflexively and pathologically disagree with anything and everything they do regardless of the facts.)

I'm saying that I accept it in principle - like with your example, saying that the NCAA had no place in the Penn St. case is an unpopular stance for moral reasons, but it's the correct one.

But I don't think it applies here. He's being legalistic about the whole thing, where any judgement made by the NCAA regarding the quality of any class for any reason is outside their purview. My argument is that he'd be right if it were about evaluating the content of a class, but you don't need to do that. To call these classes is essentially a category error for the reasons I described.

This is more like if you held some kind of race, and you said "absolutely any car is eligible" - then if somebody shows up on a motorcycle, you haven't gone against your principles to reject them.

You said any car - you're not judging a car to be unworthy, you're noting that it's not a car.

Similarly, you're not evaluating the content of the class - you're noting that a "class" that nobody shows up to where kids are being handed arbitrary grades for often plagiarized papers doesn't fit any working definition of a "class".

I don't agree that Bilas is a shill. I think he's a dyed-in-the-wool lawyer type who loves fighting anything that he sees as wielding arbitrary power, and I think his loathing of the NCAA is clouding his rationality here.

 

[wromanp7]

I'm certain it's been answered a thousand times, but what is the NCAA defense of UNC's fake classes being outside their jurisdiction but an ACT or SAT being within their purview?

 

[wromanp7]

They "believe someone might have taken the ACT" for Rose. Hammer.

They know the classes didn't exist and school admin did work on behalf of players. Ignore.

 

[TheDude1]

Yeah, Willie and the other mouthbreathing UNC fans on the national board are just idiots. Walden is all over the case (just look on page 62 of the latest) and the NCAA isn't trying to argue the validity of the classes at all; they say it isn't their jurisdiction, or even what they are doing. But they ARE saying the athletes got an advantage that regular students didn't when it comes to TAKING those classes, and that is FIRMLY in their jurisdiction.

UNC won't lose the cheating banners, which they should, but they will eat some sort of punishment.

 

[sefleming]

If the ncaa in their infinite wisdom (sarcasm) does nothing to unc**** how can they punish any other school for any infraction at all. IMHO colleges are designed to educate people and if they are not doing this something is wrong.

 

[preacherfan]

I'm certain it's been answered a thousand times, but what is the NCAA defense of UNC's fake classes being outside their jurisdiction but an ACT or SAT being within their purview?

This is not an answer to your question but an added issue: Did UNLV ever vacate any games when a player had his test score invalidated? Strict liability says that they should.

 

[Bill@ModernThirst]

I'm certain it's been answered a thousand times, but what is the NCAA defense of UNC's fake classes being outside their jurisdiction but an ACT or SAT being within their purview?

It's not. They don't decide if your SAT is legit or not. They just require you take that or the ACT to gain initial eligibility. But if they found out someone was setting up fake testing centers and submitting scores for players who didn't actually take the test so they could gain eligiblity, there would be troubles with the NCAA.

 

[wromanp7]

It's not. They don't decide if your SAT is legit or not. They just require you take that or the ACT to gain initial eligibility. But if they found out someone was setting up fake testing centers and submitting scores for players who didn't actually take the test so they could gain eligiblity, there would be troubles with the NCAA.

So there is no real defense?

 

[Bill@ModernThirst]

So there is no real defense?

The NCAA rejected UNC's argument out of hand. They basically told them "you can't make up classes for athletes and claim the NCAA has no jurisdiction."

 

[jrpross_rivals]

If UNC skates because the NCAA has no jurisdiction over what constitutes an "actual class", every other university should begin a class called "what doggies and kitties say 101".

 

[topps coach]

Best case is that the scandal keeps going and screws up their recruiting for another five years and they get their butts kicked on the court

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

This is what I call a distinction without a difference.

The problem with Bilas is that he's put his lawyer hat on and has tried to view the NCAA Manual as if it was a strict legal document, and then proceeds to try to parse and ignore the bits that doesn't square with his bidders desires.

In this case, the NCAA manual is quite clear that the organization's intent is to be built on foundation of honesty, academic integrity and sportsmanship. In other words each institution is basically held to a standard that they will act in a professional, honest and forthright manner. UNC clearly was not keeping their end of the bargain in any of those aspects.

Bilas' argument is that in his opinion there isn't a specific rule that one can cite that for example says that the school can't utilize classes that are clearly fraudulent to keep their athletes eligible, but he's ignoring the the whole basis and core principles of the organization in making this case.

Beyond that, there are specific rules which can still be applied, but he ignores. For example there's a stipulation that every year the school is required to certify to the NCAA that their athletes remain in good academic standing and are on course to graduate. Mary Willingham herself has admitted that she's submitted such paperwork knowing full well it was based on fraudulent classes!

That by itself should be enough for the NCAA to rule against UNC and their scheme to defraud athletes of an actual eduction, in favor of giving their sports teams an advantage by allowing otherwise ineligible players to play.

I always enjoy your posts JP.

 

[dynastydreamuk]

FU#K NORTH CAROLINA

YEA I SAID IT..

UNC*** and the NCAA are the sole reason i got rid of cable tv and dish and im on the brink of giving up watching the corrupt to hell sport i love.

Favoritism and money buys this and that...

It's a big joke... punish one for tiddle this and let the other off cheating murder they capitalized on for 20 plus years..

NcAa isnt touching UNC mbb

 

[Xception]

If UNC skates because the NCAA has no jurisdiction over what constitutes an "actual class", every other university should begin a class called "what doggies and kitties say 101".

Pull my finger , what it do 101

 

[trav55_rivals214556]

A couple huge parts of this story.
"Tuesday, when newly released correspondence showed the NCAA no longer views the university as a partner in the investigation. It instead cited the university’s “willful violations” and “blatant disregard” for NCAA regulations."

“It is now clear that the institution did not provide the (NCAA) enforcement staff with the entire body of pertinent information at that time, and the NCAA relied to its detriment on the thoroughness of the institution’s production,” the NCAA’s enforcement staff wrote.

This is everyone's argument that it completely IS related to athletics and therefore is in the NCAA's jurisdiction to penalize the athletic programs.....obviously.

"But the NCAA maintained that the allegations against UNC were “tethered directly to athletics” and the anomalous courses in question “provided student-athletes with advantages that others simply did not have,” which it said was a violation of NCAA rules.

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2016/10/ncaa-rejects-uncs-response-as-without-merit

 

[ukcatsfan1]

Is it too late?

UNC: By the time the NCAA either re-opened or began a new investigation into the classes, the four-year statute of limitations had expired.

NCAA: The four-year limit can be waived when there is a “blatant disregard” of NCAA bylaws.

 

[ukcatsfan1]

This is what I call a distinction without a difference.

The problem with Bilas is that he's put his lawyer hat on and has tried to view the NCAA Manual as if it was a strict legal document, and then proceeds to try to parse and ignore the bits that doesn't square with his bidders desires.

In this case, the NCAA manual is quite clear that the organization's intent is to be built on foundation of honesty, academic integrity and sportsmanship. In other words each institution is basically held to a standard that they will act in a professional, honest and forthright manner. UNC clearly was not keeping their end of the bargain in any of those aspects.

Bilas' argument is that in his opinion there isn't a specific rule that one can cite that for example says that the school can't utilize classes that are clearly fraudulent to keep their athletes eligible, but he's ignoring the the whole basis and core principles of the organization in making this case.

Beyond that, there are specific rules which can still be applied, but he ignores. For example there's a stipulation that every year the school is required to certify to the NCAA that their athletes remain in good academic standing and are on course to graduate. Mary Willingham herself has admitted that she's submitted such paperwork knowing full well it was based on fraudulent classes!

That by itself should be enough for the NCAA to rule against UNC and their scheme to defraud athletes of an actual eduction, in favor of giving their sports teams an advantage by allowing otherwise ineligible players to play.

JP - Send this to Bilas and ask him to read entirely before he opens his mouth again....

 

[thepip]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article110315307.html

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article110315307.html

Vital=Irrelevant