Do you have examples of all the undocumented that have voted in federal elections? Been a lot of recounts, so just curious how many you've found.
Birthright Citizenship
- Thread starter TigerGrowls
- Start date
Idk. Maybe grandfather some in. It basically becomes a birthright unfortunately. That’s the result of our politicians taking advantage of those laws I suppose.
I actually want to hear this. In states where they don’t have voter ID. How are they so certain there’s no voter fraud. My understanding is that there are many states that just require the name of a citizen and that person can vote. How is that secure and how can they possibly claim there’s zero fraud? That seems crazy.
I'm not an investigator. I look at what's occurring over a number of years and use common sense.
I just know that to get any document that is considered proof of citizenship, outside of naturalized citizens, it is required to provide a birth certificate. So if it is deemed that that is not what the constitution says, then none of us are citizens or have a way to prove anything, unless I suppose we have a naturalized citizen somewhere in our family tree, that then passed down that "parental birthright" that I think y'all are describing was the supposed intention of the constitution.
Now, if there was an act of congress or something, you could maybe actually change how it works, and maybe have a law that says to get a birth certificate, you have to have a parent with a birth certificate, or something like that.
I’m genuinely curious and want to hear the reasoning behind the certainty of no voter fraud. I made a similar point - if a state decides to no longer require driver’s licenses, then they start telling everyone they never have any problems with people driving without a license - that doesn’t add up. Like, of course you don’t have problems because you don’t enforce the rule. Maybe I’m just dumb.
Above my paygrade. My only opinion is birthright citizenship is dumb as hell. It needs to be changed. Idc how they do it.
I am not saying there is zero fraud, but there are republicans every year that are arrested or charged with voter fraud (no doubt dems too). But they aren't at any discernable level to worry about and change any laws or show the need to federalize anything. So if we're talking about federalizing voting, which is actually against the constitution, I am saying there should be clear evidence of the fraud. I tend to think that a single vote isn't nearly important enough for someone undocumented to risk being caught and being deported. Maybe there are some out there that are crazy enough, or even confused enough to think they are able if they were given a drivers license or something. But the claim is that its both happening and is a huge threat to our democracy, an invasion, and yet, no one can provide the thousands of examples that there must be! They did a huge hand recount audit in Arizona, a high undocumented state near the border, and yet we aren't hearing about all the undocumented fraud. I don't understand how y'all aren't questioning that. I get that it feels like people should have ID to vote. I really do. And I am not flipping out about the states where they've decided it is required. But I just think its a bunch of uproar about something that isn't happening.
Would think if there are thousands and is such a huge issue there would be examples.
You just likely wouldn't be able to prove your citizenship without it. Which is my point.
I bet I could. I’ve got family members buried here from pre 1700, we were here before it was America.
I appreciate the reply. This should be a simple thing to be able to discuss. The fact that states are allowing people to vote with no ID is nuts and there’s no way to track fraud, that’s probably the entire point. I had to show my ID to buy a Sudafed pill but you can just claim your someone else and vote. That makes no sense to me. And when I see stuff like that, where over 90% of the population wants something and politicians are unwilling to budge, the absolute first thing I think is, this is fraud. That’s the only answer in my book. There’s a reason, beyond virtue, that so many politicians want no voter ID.
That is cool (always like hearing people's genealogy research stuff, always interesting), but still sounds like you're proving you're American due to someone's birth, unless there is some constitutional or original starting point where everyone here at a certain point of time is a citizen. Which, would be curious where that is in the constitution.
There are still ways without ID. Even in states that don't require ID, there aren't just open tallies. They still have to have a voter roll, where they have to match to a particular citizen, etc. So the only way I can think of is you'd have to create thousands of actual citizens on the rolls, then you'd have to pair up a single undocumented to a single fake citizen. And you'd have to coordinate all that communication to all the undocumented people who they need to be to vote, and then you'd need not a single one of those people to communicate about this plan and get caught.
I think you’d just need a drivers license and a list of citizens. It’s pretty simple. I go to a church to vote, they have a piece of paper with names. I tell my name, they confirm my DL, I go vote. If my names not on the list, that’s happened, I get a provisional ballot to submit. I just think doing something simple like this would help everyone. It would make a lot of us dumb uneducated people feel better about the elections too lol.
If there is no voter fraud, then why the opposition to voter ID?
That is why voter ID is so popular across all segments of our population, because it makes common sense. You can't have a secure election with no voter ID and mail in voting. Just not possible. And yes, there were several prosecuted voter fraud cases last election. It absolutely 100% happens, who cares if it is a discernible level or not? That doesn't matter. We as Americans, the most powerful country in the history of the planet, derserve fair elections.
There is no reason to oppose voter Id unless you want to cheat.
That is why voter ID is so popular across all segments of our population, because it makes common sense. You can't have a secure election with no voter ID and mail in voting. Just not possible. And yes, there were several prosecuted voter fraud cases last election. It absolutely 100% happens, who cares if it is a discernible level or not? That doesn't matter. We as Americans, the most powerful country in the history of the planet, derserve fair elections.
There is no reason to oppose voter Id unless you want to cheat.
That was precisely my point. If the majority of the citizens want it and the leaders or certain states don’t then something is up. We are a representative democracy, those politicians should represent what its constituents want. When politicians fight so adamantly for something that 90% of the population wants, you better pay attention, because something’s not right.
You get papers that say you are at the end of the process...
I really am not intending to call you dumb and uneducated, if that is the implication.
And I do get why people feel like it should be required. IF, along with the law there was money put aside for a campaign to get everyone a valid ID, I could get behind it. People keep saying they don't understand the opposition other than I must want fraud, but I have shared studies and numerous sources as to the reasons why a bunch of times, but people always look right past it, dismiss it, and go back to saying people must want fraud. (it really is a google away, I noticed this same argument from FP below this post).
It was tongue in cheek, many of my fans on here love to call me dumb. The only reason I’ve ever heard is that it’s too difficult for people to get IDs and I don’t buy that. Now, getting a Real ID is certainly a ***** but that shouldn’t be the litmus test for if something is implemented. Furthermore, the people want it, that’s all that really should matter honestly. The people paying the bills have asked for it repeatedly.
I hear you. And I personally, the world that I live in and the people I regularly interact with, would obviously have no issues. And they already have one. But I know that studies have shown there are people affected, and they have the same constitutional rights as others to vote (they don't have the right to go into the Grammy's or buy sudafed). Which is why I said I would support putting money behind a campaign to get all the people affect, mostly in rural areas, etc some form of ID.
What are those studies pointing to as the hindering factor? Transportation or costs?
Ulster Scots from the borderlands. Settled in Appalachia sometime around 1670-1680. Are you familiar with the folkways of America?
Have you ever seen the movie Songcatcher?
It's a fictional story based on historical studies I've the music of the Appalachian mountains and the connections with folk songs and history of the English Isles. Really cool movie.
Having grown up a huge Braveheart fan, thats fun lol
I definitely am not. Haven't gotten into much Appalachia history in general.
Here are a lot on voter fraud itself: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/debunking-voter-fraud-myth (I don't know much of anything about the Brennan center, but there are a ton of links to the actual sources for their claims)
Here was one study I found: https://esra.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/1556/2020/11/hajnal.pdf
On other thing that I think is important is the rights of the many vs the few. To say that we all should accept unsecured elections and all the consequences that flow from them because some infintesimally small amount of actual citizens truely can't get ID even though they want one really badly (which i dont buy) doesnt seem consistent with how everything else works.
I don't see how the rights of the many have been violated. If voter fraud was happening and an issue, I would agree, and be fully behind it (while would still likely want some form of campaign to get affected people ID).
It’s American history bro. Not Appalachian. The education system fails us by not teaching appropriate history. Check out Albion’s Seed.
in a nutshell.
The Four Folkways
- Puritans (New England):
From East Anglia, they established a culture focused on community, work ethic, and corporate structures, laying foundations for New England's society. - Cavaliers & Servants (Virginia):
From the South of England, they brought a hierarchical, aristocratic culture to the Tidewater region, influencing the South's social structure. - Quakers (Pennsylvania):
From the English Midlands, they established a society based on pacifism, equality, and religious tolerance, shaping Pennsylvania's culture. - Borderers (Appalachia):
From the contentious Scottish-English borderlands, they brought a culture of fierce independence, clan loyalty, and martial tradition to the Appalachian region.
Exactly. You can make a study say pretty much whatever you want.
If voter fraud is not an issue then there should be no reason to oppose ID.
The myth that ID is hard to obtain may have had more credence before the digital age. However, that is no longer a valid excuse. ID is required to do anything. Democrats wanted you to have ID to walk into a fvcking grocery store during covid. Go walk the streets and talk to low income people, they all have ID and are usually insulted when you insinuate they are too stupid to go get an ID.
Yeah. I'm sure that telling them they are too stupid would lead to them being insulted.
Nobody required ID to go into a grocery Store. Stop with the idiotic Whataboutism
Good Lord dude.
We dont know if it is and more importantly, ID makes it harder for fraud to happen going forward. ID is required for so much. Just hard for me to understand why this is an issue, thats all.
we already know that there is voter fraud..people have been convicted...the question is have enough votes to change the outcome of an election, and so far the answer apparently is no.
I'm not downplaying the necessity for us to secure our elections to make sure only the proper people vote.
Sure, but there is deep history in every region is all. My son loves all things "Army" so we've done battlefields around us, watched lots of documentary's etc. Just meant that I haven't gotten into history at that granular of a level is all I meant.