Anyone who would expect more in a one loss tournament format really isn't an "expert" at sports at all.
Stephen A. Smith Makes The Case That Cal Is Underachieving
- Thread starter ZaytovenCat
- Start date
I'm not making the argument you think I am. I'm merely saying that I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to have that opinion. You don't need to quote Cal's resume to me. I would make an argument against anyone who said that Cal has underachieved. But I would certainly understand why they felt that way.
Reasonable minds can differ, you know...
I certainly don't think Cal or anyone else should get credit for playing by the rules. Playing by the rules should be the assumption and not the story. My point is that there are a lot of stories out there that are really, really important and timely, and yet it seems that once again, an attack on Kentucky, or it's coach, gets the air time.
I can understand why some might say he is underachieving, but I don't agree with it yet. Let's be fair... You aren't going to win it every year, but I do expect to have a chance at it. So far in the Cal era there have been two disappointing seasons that have not been up to par, the NIT year and last year. That is an upgrade from what we were getting out of the Tubby Smith era. I think if Cal doesn't get another championship before he leaves, then we can call it a failure. Until then, keep recruiting and competing. That's all I ask for.
It's true.
Everyone expected more than 1 title by now.
I know it's unpopular to talk about, but when you start your seasons with an NBA showcase where 90 pro personnel show up, end your seasons with a good showing on draft night, and all throughout the NBA season have alum making highlights, then 1 title leaves room for discussion.
Everyone expected more than 1 title by now.
I know it's unpopular to talk about, but when you start your seasons with an NBA showcase where 90 pro personnel show up, end your seasons with a good showing on draft night, and all throughout the NBA season have alum making highlights, then 1 title leaves room for discussion.
Preseason, Duke had 3 freshmen projected higher in the draft than any of ours, plus all that returning talent.
KU had Josh Jackson plus the player of the year at pg.
UCLA had Ball and Leaf plus talented upperclassmen.
Don't even get me started on Washington and NC St.
Cal doesn't necessarily get the best of the freshmen available. He just tends to get the most out of his freshmen.
If anything, Cal is penalized for having too much success. He is held to a different standard that he has essentially created for himself.
You won't see Cuonzo Martin getting much grief next year, when they miss the tournament or lose in the first round.
KU had Josh Jackson plus the player of the year at pg.
UCLA had Ball and Leaf plus talented upperclassmen.
Don't even get me started on Washington and NC St.
Cal doesn't necessarily get the best of the freshmen available. He just tends to get the most out of his freshmen.
If anything, Cal is penalized for having too much success. He is held to a different standard that he has essentially created for himself.
You won't see Cuonzo Martin getting much grief next year, when they miss the tournament or lose in the first round.
There are 300 plus D1 schools, put his resume up against anyone's and get back to me
There's only three active coaches with more national titles but Cal is a "failure." Yeah, okay.
Well Cal is doing more than any other coach in the country with brand new teams every freakin year. Wake up Stephen A.
Lol, he's not the only one saying it..if you didn't spend your time in an echo chamber around here you'd realize that Cal underachieving yet again is the narrative all over the national media today..it's CBSsports writers, Fox Sports writers, ESPN analysts and about a dozen others..I know it's hard but spend a couple days outside the echo chamber without your blue sunglasses on so you can get an objective perspective on how ppl view this program
I'm not sure if you remember way back in the offseason but the talk all offseason was how great this team was and how we were the favorites to win the title..it's funny how quickly we seem to forget these things after our earlier than expected tournament exits..our fanbase is able to rationalize underachieving like no other
Take your head out of the sand for just one minute and understand that people nationally are starting to see a growing disparity between Cal's talent and the number of titles he has to show for it.
Stop living in the echo chamber. The truth hurts, but that doesn't mean it's not the truth. The disparity has gotten too big to ignore. No one besides Fox should be going pro off of this year's team yet because of the culture we've created we're going to lose our top 8 players.
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As a fan of a less than stellar program, i feel i can be objective. The run Cal is on at UK is insane. Guy basically starts over each year. To expect more from him is a problem that starts with the man in the mirror. UK fans are known for their passion and lofty expectations, Cal has been everything a fan would want in their coach. To those that expected more than one title at this point, have you thought about how unreasonable your expectations may be? Coach K been at Duke 36 years and has 4 titles....Roy been at 2 blue bloods for 29 years and has 2 titles...Pitino 24 years in state with 2 titles...Izzo has 22 seasons with 1 title. Cal puts himself and the program out there, so takes like this are gonna be made.
Maybe if we quit running into Higgins. We complain about the draw when they put out the brackets, its not the teams we draw, it is the refs.
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This narrative became solidified in the national broadcast and sports media during the Tubby era (if it didn't start then), i.e., those racist fans at at Kentucky are completely unrealistic and expect a national title every year.
I know hundreds of Kentucky fans and that's a very egarious assumption. The Kentucky fan base is so big that any generalization is impossible, but most of us expect to be in the conversation (the way Duke and North Carolina are always in the discussion) most years, and no one sane "expects" a title every year.
If Cal had this class for another couple of years..adding some younger five star talent along the way...i'd have to be honest and say that in year three or so I'd get pretty antsy about a championship. But in the current framework of the system I think he's done awfully well.
Having a combine is not the same as a great team. That said, we had a great team this year. One more possession and we are in The final four and you have to wait a little longer to make this post.
"That narrative is only going to get louder and louder as the years go by."
Well, among sour malcontents, trolls, ingrates, whiners and professional instigators like Smith that is true. Certainly the OP is firmly in their ranks.
As for me, even on the day after a very tough loss, I see this as a fantastic year, another one in which Kentucky was in the conversation for a championship and met those expectations. I appreciate Cal, understand as a fan of 50 years just how hard winning it all is, and hope that we keep Cal at least another decade.
Who would you like to see as Kentucky's coach OP? Or are you just a full time crybaby without a solution, but a huge sense of entitlement.
Well, among sour malcontents, trolls, ingrates, whiners and professional instigators like Smith that is true. Certainly the OP is firmly in their ranks.
As for me, even on the day after a very tough loss, I see this as a fantastic year, another one in which Kentucky was in the conversation for a championship and met those expectations. I appreciate Cal, understand as a fan of 50 years just how hard winning it all is, and hope that we keep Cal at least another decade.
Who would you like to see as Kentucky's coach OP? Or are you just a full time crybaby without a solution, but a huge sense of entitlement.
Another great post. Puts it in to perspective when you name other coaches and what they have done. Yet Cal is the underachiever when he has done just as much, if not more, in 8 years than most coaches in their F'ing careers.
Another great post - it's good to see we still have some rational fans after what happened yesterday.
Yeah. The same guys who beat the drum for certain conferences depending on which sport is being played and who their network has contracts with. Which team other than the Wall, Cousins, Blesdoe team underachieved? If anything this team overachieved. We ended the season as one of the top 2-3 teams and without a good 4 spot or any real depth other than 1-3 guys. Maybe you'd be better off to stay away from writers looking for hits on their websites.
Has any coach done it better using the same method (OAD)? I don't think so. It's easy to take a poke at Cal but it's intellectually lazy as well. The young men are here for one year and as we can all clearly see, they have not yet fully matured physically. Sure they are tall but they aren't yet NBA bodies and they are ONLY 18 years old. We've all seen how they've developed after leaving - if they stayed at UK for 4 years, we'd be talking about 40-0 every freaking year.
Give me a break. SAS is wrong on this one.
Give me a break. SAS is wrong on this one.
But see, that's where you're wrong. It is unreasonable, because it's lazy. For those who hold this opinion, it's either born out of unreasonable expectations (a few on this board), or it comes from simply not following/understanding the college game at all, but needing to come up with something to talk about during the tournament (as is the case with SAS).
Let's start with the short-term. Yesterday, UK started 4 McDonalds All-Americans. So they had this amazing talent edge, right? Well, actually UNC started 5 burger boys. So not only did they have more, ours were 3 freshman and 1 sophomore; they had 3 juniors and 2 seniors. The game came down to a last second shot. That's just basketball; it has nothing to do with one team/coach underachieving. It shows just how incredibly hard it is to win a title, and how a number of factors -- draws, officiating, etc. -- play just as big a role as "talent."
But there's a long-term view as well, and it should be obvious. That's why I say those who don't see it are just lazy. Cal starts with a new team EVERY year. That's his choice; I get that. But it doesn't change the fact that anyone who knows anything about basketball knows that talent alone rarely wins. You have to have "chemistry" as well, and that generally comes from playing together over a longer period of time. The reality is Cal as OVERACHIEVED in getting the results he has gotten. If you don't believe me, just listen to other high caliber coaches. They are amazed at what he's able to do year in and year out, and I'll trust their take over Stephen A. Smith's any day.
Incredibly horrible take.
Duke was the favorite, not us.
Just, ya know, too much suck to talk about here. Insanely bad.
Stephen A. Smith is underachieving.
He has a modern job where you don't have to know anything or do anything besides make noise. If this were ancient times, he would starve.
He has a modern job where you don't have to know anything or do anything besides make noise. If this were ancient times, he would starve.
Underachieving? I'm not sure. Go back and forth on it. Chances were there for 2-3 more and they were missed for whatever reason. Is that underachieving?
However, in 2009 if I would have told you Cal would have the #1/2 recruiting class every year for 8 seasons and a 1/2 seed 5 times I think most would have expected more than one title.
However, in 2009 if I would have told you Cal would have the #1/2 recruiting class every year for 8 seasons and a 1/2 seed 5 times I think most would have expected more than one title.
Jesus...are you serious....you put that much into preseason guesswork based almost entirely on recruiting rank?
Stephen A., oh that means it is not worth reading, listening to, or caring about.
Everyone looks at this talent and thinks it's like the NBA version of these kids and it's not. It's hard to win with freshmen against veteran players. Our 2012 title came with three freshmen, two sophs and an important senior. It wasn't just all kids.
But even then, look at how long it took some prestigious coaches to win titles and how long in between titles it is for some programs.
Boeheim has coached for 41 years yet Syracuse has been to the title game only three times and he's won it once.
Roy Williams coached at Kansas for over 15 years and didn't win it. Went to UNC and won it in 2005 then 2009 and then nothing since.
Coach K won back-to-back in 1991 and 1992 when teams stayed together for three or four years and then went to 2001 before winning another and then to 2010 before getting another one.
Pitino won his in 1996 and then it took him until 2013 to get another one.
Calhoun's were more frequent with 1999 to 2004 and then to 2011 and Ollie getting one in 2014. Once they won it, it took another five years and then seven years and then three years.
Izzo won it in 2000 and has only got back to the title game one time. Has yet to win it again.
Who exactly is Calipari being compared to? College basketball's tournament is like a simulation where your team comes out this one time. It's hard as hell to win it in a one and done format. That's why we often get ridiculous outcomes like George Mason, Butler, VCU, Wichita State and South Carolina in Final Fours. Were those teams ever the four best teams? Nope. It's just the way it goes.
But even then, look at how long it took some prestigious coaches to win titles and how long in between titles it is for some programs.
Boeheim has coached for 41 years yet Syracuse has been to the title game only three times and he's won it once.
Roy Williams coached at Kansas for over 15 years and didn't win it. Went to UNC and won it in 2005 then 2009 and then nothing since.
Coach K won back-to-back in 1991 and 1992 when teams stayed together for three or four years and then went to 2001 before winning another and then to 2010 before getting another one.
Pitino won his in 1996 and then it took him until 2013 to get another one.
Calhoun's were more frequent with 1999 to 2004 and then to 2011 and Ollie getting one in 2014. Once they won it, it took another five years and then seven years and then three years.
Izzo won it in 2000 and has only got back to the title game one time. Has yet to win it again.
Who exactly is Calipari being compared to? College basketball's tournament is like a simulation where your team comes out this one time. It's hard as hell to win it in a one and done format. That's why we often get ridiculous outcomes like George Mason, Butler, VCU, Wichita State and South Carolina in Final Fours. Were those teams ever the four best teams? Nope. It's just the way it goes.
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Good points and I agree with all of them. But I don't think it's lazy for someone to feel that Cal has underachieved. I understand the argument. Still, I get your point.
Cal has been his own worst enemy. First, the "players-first" approach has hurt him just as much as it has helped him. And Cal himself said this paraphrased quote when he was hired: "Why have I been given this opportunity at UK? .....maybe it's so we can catch UCLA in titles..."
When you get the number one recruiting class every damn year (practically) and you make a habit of being Swaggy Cal every time a mic is put in front of you, you have to back it up. And many people just think he hasn't done that to the degree he needs to. I see their point, although I would argue differently as you have.
Regardless, this is the bottom line for me: If he gets ONE more title, his reputation is sealed. Period. If he doesn't, then there can be a debate and I can understand both sides of that debate.
I would expect you of all people to post this !! Why don't you just shut the hell up and find another team, I mean really your act gets old.
It's his norm as it is Zaytohovab. They were bothbbummed by the UCLA victory.
Skip is this you? Man you have some bad takes, if he wins another how do you spin it then? You need to go cheer for whoever hires Tom Crean. you would have a great season then
I don't know how his ip address hasn't been perma banned
If he's underachieving who's overachieving and how far do you have to move the goalposts to come to that conclusion?
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