North Carolina Scandal Etc

[hotelblue]

True.

And beyond that they need to maintain a certain grade point average to remain eligible. For many of these athletes these bogus classes was what allowed them to stay above the minimal line necessary to compete.

Beyond that, the school is required by the NCAA by-laws to certify that these athletes are indeed eligible to compete. If these staffers are aware that the classes are bogus, yet proceed to certify that they are eligible, then IMO they are committing fraud.

The NCAA manual doesn't have a lot of specific rules because it's based on an assumption of integrity and honesty. When a school like UNC blatantly disregards all these things throughout, then they open themselves up to whatever the NCAA wants to do with them.

believe it or not this is where i give credit to unc for the wainstein report. skewed and the tip of the iceberg maybe, but that was imo solely due to scholastic pressure (pofs etc) from within the university. there has still been no leader in the athletic department to do anything. this is the problem from the beginning.

when the university initially did nothing to the ath. dept. despite them already being on probation, they risked their academic reputation. you could see it then. someone high up felt the pressure to protect the ath. dept. by dragging this out. all they had to do was clean house in the athletic dept. with a post season ban for 1-2 years until there was an ncaa verdict. that would have guaranteed a slap on the wrist and probably a quick investigation. it (joint investigation with the ncaa) would have taken care of itself. and dare i say a lot of the past incidents would have been under the same umbrella in the verdict symbolically speaking - letting them skate on many years of cheating. and people probably would have been fine with that honestly.

it's the ncaa that dragged this out mainly. which will cost them both. this was their hurricane katrina. they weren't ready for it. they have no scope on how bad it is. this more than anything is unc's best allie right now (the magnitude). i think unc students/faculty actually want resolution. they are afraid to open their own closet because this has them at the core. i think they are begging the ncaa to open the door. the problem is all the chit is going suffocate investigators because it is so bad. that's one thing we need to give credit to the ncaa for. who'd want to investigate that dumpster fire? decades and decades of cheating. good lord. they should have been swift. you have a fan vs scholar problem that has kept leadership's hands tied imo. all they had to do was clean house and they'd be working on their third recruiting class AFTER probation.

the ncaa looks bad for waiting and unc has been forced to watch everything leak slowly via media sources. i said it three years ago and i know it has to be true that this will end up worse for both parties being dragged out (hoping it goes away). there will be a legitimate backlash for both unc and the ncaa if there isn't some sort of restitution to the sporting and education communities. this was a sports driven scandal that contaminated unc's academic prestige. it didn't have to be that way.

 

[Aligned_for_9]

The Wainstein Report was intended to be another whitewash....just like the Martin Report. Wainstein was supposed to put this scandal to rest. However, once Wainstein got busy and saw just how f'ed up the mess was...he decided to salvage his professional reputation...and essentially stab UNC in the back.

 

[Ghettobird]

The Wainstein Report was intended to be another whitewash....just like the Martin Report. Wainstein was supposed to put this scandal to rest. However, once Wainstein got busy and saw just how f'ed up the mess was...he decided to salvage his professional reputation...and essentially stab UNC in the back.

Appreciate all the info your sharing.

 

[Aligned_for_9]

This is from the NCAA.....sometimes I am confused at exactly how this works out with Summer classes, etc:

In Division I, student-athletes must complete 40 percent of the coursework required for a degree by the end of their second year. They must complete 60 percent by the end of their third year and 80 percent by the end of their fourth year. Student-athletes are allowed five years to graduate while receiving athletically related financial aid. All Division I student-athletes must earn at least six credit hours each term to be eligible for the following term and must meet minimum grade-point average requirements that are related to an institution’s own GPA standards for graduation.

It is well-documented that Summer sessions were primarily filled with bogus classes. Whether it be Summer, Fall, or Spring... UNC athletes were being kept "eligible" based on fraudulent classes. Based on the three leaked transcripts that we have...bogus classes were absolutely applied in order to boost an athlete's GPA to the bare level of eligibility.

 

[KopiKat]

It is well-documented that Summer sessions were primarily filled with bogus classes. Whether it be Summer, Fall, or Spring... UNC athletes were being kept "eligible" based on fraudulent classes. Based on the three leaked transcripts that we have...bogus classes were absolutely applied in order to boost an athlete's GPA to the bare level of eligibility.

so what about their "degrees" ?? Obviously an off-topic discussion, but it would certainly seem like that would be the biggest matter to square with the house . . . with SACS.

Can you imagine the horror . . . or getting that letter in the mail notifying you that your college degree has been invalidated? How in the world does THAT process occur?

 

[Aligned_for_9]

so what about their "degrees" ?? Obviously an off-topic discussion, but it would certainly seem like that would be the biggest matter to square with the house . . . with SACS.

Can you imagine the horror . . . or getting that letter in the mail notifying you that your college degree has been invalidated? How in the world does THAT process occur?

SACS made it very clear that UNC had "make whole" the degrees resulting from fraudulent classes. UNC's response was that the transcripts were sealed and could not be altered. Thus, we're left with UNC not making whole the degrees as SACS mandated.

 

[preacherfan]

SACS made it very clear that UNC had "make whole" the degrees resulting from fraudulent classes. UNC's response was that the transcripts were sealed and could not be altered. Thus, we're left with UNC not making whole the degrees as SACS mandated.

Meanwhile, a player like Sean May or King Rice gets hired to coach when a degree is required for the position. Another former player, who actually earned a degree, is passed over for the job.

 

[HICATFAN]

The thing people need to keep in mind is that the way UNC's College of Arts & Sciences is intentionally designed to be open to disparate classes etc. So just because someone ends up with a Communications degree (for example) doesn't mean that they haven't taken a ton of AFAM courses.

There was an interview a few years ago with a UNC football player who noted that he wasn't even sure whether he had 'graduated' in AFAM Studies or Communications until they sent him his diploma in the mail. (if someone remembers who that was let me know.)

UNC defenders like to talk about the claim that Roy Williams didn't like to see his players clustered in AFAM studies, and afterwards this became less and less an issue for the basketball program. That's partly true, but what's not mentioned was that 1.) basketball players continued to rely on these bogus AFAM studies classes to earn credit and maintain their GPAs (at least until Wayne Walden and Crowder left the school) and 2.) in terms of graduation, many of them moved over to Communications, so in effect they were still clustered. (if that was truly what Williams was 'concerned' about.)

JP was it....Michael McAdoo that made the comment?

AlohaCat

 

[Aligned_for_9]

UNC's solution to "making whole" the fraudulent degrees was to supposedly send letters to every AFAM Major and offer them to ability to retake the bogus classes as real classes....tuition-free. However, the degree remain in tact whether or not anyone took UNC up on the offer to retake classes.

If you already had the diploma in your hand...would YOU go back to college and retake the classes?

 

[preacherfan]

JP was it....Michael McAdoo that made the comment?

AlohaCat

I don't think he graduated so he can't be the answer.

 

[KopiKat]

UNC's solution to "making whole" the fraudulent degrees was to supposedly send letters to every AFAM Major and offer them to ability to retake the bogus classes as real classes....tuition-free. However, the degree remain in tact whether or not anyone took UNC up on the offer to retake classes.

If you already had the diploma in your hand...would YOU go back to college and retake the classes?

I would not. Yet if I am the institution, I would effort to make certain that my actions are adequate to satisfy the "make whole" mandate issued by the accreditation agent.

I would love to see a copy of one of those letters unc sent . . . . hi, please come back to unc . . . do some class work this time . . . no charge . . . have a nice day.

 

[Shawn (uk7spd)]

UNC's solution to "making whole" the fraudulent degrees was to supposedly send letters to every AFAM Major and offer them to ability to retake the bogus classes as real classes....tuition-free. However, the degree remain in tact whether or not anyone took UNC up on the offer to retake classes.

If you already had the diploma in your hand...would YOU go back to college and retake the classes?

I think the "what to do about the degrees" is an entirely separate issue from the NCAA issues, and a much more difficult one. The NCAA issue, at this point, should be pretty straightforward now that UNC's and the NCAA's backs appear to be against the wall. But the degree issue is about people's lives and livelihoods. Yes, clearly a huge number of people -- likely mostly athletes -- had to know that they classes were fraudulent, and therefore it would seem fair to make them take a class again to validate their degree. However, I have no doubt that some of the students (again, likely the non-athletes) in fake classes thought they were legitimate (maybe just easy) and turned in legitimate papers without any sense that they were part of something nefarious. At this point, it is impossible to go back and determine who did real work.

Again, before a UNC fan tries to run with this, the NCAA issue is separate. Just because there is a chance that SAs did real work doesn't matter. The system was fraudulent and the sports programs should pay the consequence for setting up the system to maintain eligibility. The degrees issue is a much more difficult question and one that can't be dealt with so simply. I think offering the opportunity to take free classes is a decent first step, and I honestly don't know what else could be done. I just think invalidating hundreds or thousands of degrees would be silly at this point and could impact a lot of lives. Perhaps a line could be drawn in terms of how many fake classes a person took, or maybe you just invalidate AFAM degrees. Difficult issue.

 

[Aligned_for_9]

Agreed. It is impractical to make a ton of students retake classes once they have embarked on their professional careers. However, the fact remains that UNC used the fake classes for a disproportionate number of athletes. UNC violated its own policy for those athletes. UNC used those fake classes to manufacture eligibility.

 

[Spanish Radio]

believe it or not this is where i give credit to unc for the wainstein report. skewed and the tip of the iceberg maybe, but that was imo solely due to scholastic pressure (pofs etc) from within the university. there has still been no leader in the athletic department to do anything. this is the problem from the beginning.

when the university initially did nothing to the ath. dept. despite them already being on probation, they risked their academic reputation. you could see it then. someone high up felt the pressure to protect the ath. dept. by dragging this out. all they had to do was clean house in the athletic dept. with a post season ban for 1-2 years until there was an ncaa verdict. that would have guaranteed a slap on the wrist and probably a quick investigation. it (joint investigation with the ncaa) would have taken care of itself. and dare i say a lot of the past incidents would have been under the same umbrella in the verdict symbolically speaking - letting them skate on many years of cheating. and people probably would have been fine with that honestly.

it's the ncaa that dragged this out mainly. which will cost them both. this was their hurricane katrina. they weren't ready for it. they have no scope on how bad it is. this more than anything is unc's best allie right now (the magnitude). i think unc students/faculty actually want resolution. they are afraid to open their own closet because this has them at the core. i think they are begging the ncaa to open the door. the problem is all the chit is going suffocate investigators because it is so bad. that's one thing we need to give credit to the ncaa for. who'd want to investigate that dumpster fire? decades and decades of cheating. good lord. they should have been swift. you have a fan vs scholar problem that has kept leadership's hands tied imo. all they had to do was clean house and they'd be working on their third recruiting class AFTER probation.

the ncaa looks bad for waiting and unc has been forced to watch everything leak slowly via media sources. i said it three years ago and i know it has to be true that this will end up worse for both parties being dragged out (hoping it goes away). there will be a legitimate backlash for both unc and the ncaa if there isn't some sort of restitution to the sporting and education communities. this was a sports driven scandal that contaminated unc's academic prestige. it didn't have to be that way.

The UNC president, Tom Ross, was forced to resign after the release of the Wainstein report. He hired Wainstein and there is suspicion that since Ross did not control the Wainstein report to completely benefit UNC he was told to leave.

 

[KopiKat]

The UNC president, Tom Ross, was forced to resign after the release of the Wainstein report. He hired Wainstein and there is suspicion that since Ross did not control the Wainstein report to completely benefit UNC he was told to leave.

unc BOGs to Ross: because you allowed one iota of truth to be revealed you made us look bad in the process, therefore you're FIRED!

 

[KopiKat]

Yes, clearly a huge number of people -- likely mostly athletes -- had to know that they classes were fraudulent, and therefore it would seem fair to make them take a class again to validate their degree. .

Is a student not a customer? Yes, the concern of "making whole" is certainly separate from the ncaa issues. That is between the institution and the accreditation agent - unc and SACS. But is there not a point that the student (customer) is allowed to believe the institution they are doing business with is on the up and up? If McDonald's cooks a burger and the health dept. later determines customers have been infected is it the customer's responsibility to go back to the franchise and make sure they cook them one from fresh ground beef the next time? Of course, that is a flawed comparison, because in that situation the customer actually did receive a burger. Point being, just can't go along with putting ANY onus on former students. They were the victims of fraud. Any responsibility applied to them serves to protect the culprit.

Edit: what unc is looking at here is the identification of numerous invalid degrees and resultant harm. Harm that extends to numerous individuals and families and, quite frankly, generations. Many wasted years affecting many human lives. Grounds for class action lawsuit against unc by former student athletes and students not to be believed. If I'm litigating that case, I'm making an argument of an environment of modern slavery, where numerous individuals, most often always black, were made to serve, and were systematically forbidden to receive what they were promised.

 

[Spanish Radio]

Not sure if everyone had seen the interview with John Swofford, current ACC commissioner and former UNC Athletic Director from 1980-1997 being questioned about the UNC scandal. Since 1989-2011 is being targeted looks like he was the AD during 9 years of the cheating.

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article37131252.html

 

[jrpross_rivals]

I don't believe in typing "lol". It's overused and rarely does it mean someone actually laughed out loud.

However "Cheater McDicknose" made me belly laugh out loud.

 

[Lumpy 2]

Thanks for the link martinism. I hadn't seen that interview. Swofford reminded me of a squirrel caught in traffic trying to dodge Kane's questions

 

[Spanish Radio]

Thanks for the link martinism. I hadn't seen that interview. Swofford reminded me of a squirrel caught in traffic trying to dodge Kane's questions

I am surprised he hadn't developed a stutter by the end.

 

[mebeblue2]

Not sure if everyone had seen the interview with John Swofford, current ACC commissioner and former UNC Athletic Director from 1980-1997 being questioned about the UNC scandal. Since 1989-2011 is being targeted looks like he was the AD during 9 years of the cheating.

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article37131252.html

thanks
i have to say, he was about as uncomfortable in that interview as a man can get
his lower lip was even trembling

 

[zannmann]

Ol' Roy will give Emmeret a Moon Pie and a Coca Coler and everything will be done.

 

[KyFaninNC]

Swofford was knee deep in this, squirming like a worm in hot ashes.

 

[preacherfan]

Yes, clearly a huge number of people -- likely mostly athletes -- had to know that they classes were fraudulent, and therefore it would seem fair to make them take a class again to validate their degree. However, I have no doubt that some of the students (again, likely the non-athletes) in fake classes thought they were legitimate (maybe just easy) and turned in legitimate papers without any sense that they were part of something nefarious.

There are multiple problems with the bold statement above. First, we have to keep in mind that UNC is a "public ivy" and admits a select quality of student. It is hard for me to believe that an average student wouldn't recognize the class as fake from the get go.

Second, I had a no show class in HS and I knew it was a total fraud. And, I was from a family in which I was the ONLY person to ever graduate with a traditional HS diploma.

Third, while a college freshman might be fooled into thinking the class was legit, an upperclassman wouldn't.

Fourth, isn't it funny that NOBODY ever complained about the classes? Not one athlete or student ever went to his or her coach and said there is something wrong!? Not one student ever went to the Dean and said that a secretary was running sham classes!?

Finally, Crowder was handpicking the students who could take the fraudulent classes. JPScott has said that nobody has ever investigated who the regular students were in the classes. They may well have been former athletes, girlfriends, and other athletic related students who were just trying to get a free degree. We do know that the "frat boys" were not invited to the sham.

 

[akaukswoosh]

Fourth, isn't it funny that NOBODY ever complained about the classes? Not one athlete or student ever went to his or her coach and said there is something wrong!? Not one student ever went to the Dean and said that a secretary was running sham classes!?
[thumb2]

 

[Bkocats]

I'm trying very hard to maintain a realistic outlook on this; not get the hopes up that something will actually be done. But y'all are sure making that difficult.

and I thank you

 

[Shawn (uk7spd)]

This is getting interesting reading different boards because now that it appears the ANOA has been sent (or is close to being sent), opinions are all over the place. There are several UNC folks saying they don't see much damage to MBB but then there are others (e.g., RCCPMD and Align for 9) that are going the complete other way with it. Some people are going to be very wrong one way or the other.

 

[Aligned_for_9]

This is getting interesting reading different boards because now that it appears the ANOA has been sent (or is close to being sent), opinions are all over the place. There are several UNC folks saying they don't see much damage to MBB but then there are others (e.g., RCCPMD and Align for 9) that are going the complete other way with it. Some people are going to be very wrong one way or the other.

Which of the two "opinions" is being perpetuated by a multi-million dollar PR campaign?

 

[Aligned_for_9]

The actual NOA will list "multiple sports." UNC PR will go after the fact that MBB was not specifically named (although biggest offender amongst "multiple sports"). However, the "Factual Information" that is attached to the end of the NOA is full of MBB references.

Regarding the "Factual Information" tacked on to the end of the NOA... UNC will no doubt heavily redact as many references to MBB/staff/personnel as possible. Even though we as the public will not be able to see the MBB references as they will be heavily and unjustly redacted....the MBB references are there in abundance. The NCAA will punish UNC based on the NOA it issued to UNC...not the redacted version that UNC will release to us.

Do not fall for UNC's spin and PR tactics.

 

[Shawn (uk7spd)]

Which of the two "opinions" is being perpetuated by a multi-million dollar PR campaign?

Oh, I get it...completely. But it is interesting nonetheless. I mean, when the **** is about to hit the fan (especially to the degree that you are talking), PR can only do so much. At some point, they are going to be forced to hire this guy:

 

[KopiKat]

The actual NOA will list "multiple sports." UNC PR will go after the fact that MBB was not specifically named (although biggest offender amongst "multiple sports"). However, the "Factual Information" that is attached to the end of the NOA is full of MBB references.

Regarding the "Factual Information" tacked on to the end of the NOA... UNC will no doubt heavily redact as many references to MBB/staff/personnel as possible. Even though we as the public will not be able to see the MBB references as they will be heavily and unjustly redacted....the MBB references are there in abundance. The NCAA will punish UNC based on the NOA it issued to UNC...not the redacted version that UNC will release to us.

Do not fall for UNC's spin and PR tactics.

Obviously then, unc is super confident of no possibility that an un-altered, original, non-redacted amended notice will ever be made available to the public, leaked or otherwise? I can just imagine is this were happening at UK. Never in a million years would such a redaction process be considered, as almost assuredly the exactness would somehow be made known. Probably all it would take is Forde making a call . . . hi, could you email me a scanned pdf of the original notice on UK? The ncaa's response for our consideration likely something like . . .oh yeah, sure, why not?

 

[IdaCat]

Fourth, isn't it funny that NOBODY ever complained about the classes? Not one athlete or student ever went to his or her coach and said there is something wrong!? Not one student ever went to the Dean and said that a secretary was running sham classes!?

Are you kidding? At UNC***, the only time anybody would notice anything strange is if a class actually meets!

 

[KopiKat]

Fourth, isn't it funny that NOBODY ever complained about the classes? Not one athlete or student ever went to his or her coach and said there is something wrong!? Not one student ever went to the Dean and said that a secretary was running sham classes!?
.

How do we know that none of the students and / or student athletes complained? Because they have not made available any record of a complaint? Because they've given us their word that no student complained? Because unc would have a virtuous and moral process to ensure that if anybody did complain about this corrupt process that it would be handled by an independent "student concerns" staff that would protect the student and not the institution? We're taking their word on this? unc's word? Think about that.

 

[Lumpy 2]

This is getting interesting reading different boards because now that it appears the ANOA has been sent (or is close to being sent), opinions are all over the place. There are several UNC folks saying they don't see much damage to MBB but then there are others (e.g., RCCPMD and Align for 9) that are going the complete other way with it. Some people are going to be very wrong one way or the other.

It's not only who's talking, but also who's not talking. A lot of the people who have been saying mbb won't be punished have now gone silent. That makes me believe that Aligned_for _9 and RCCPMD have a pretty good idea of what's in the amended NOA.

 

[preacherfan]

How do we know that none of the students and / or student athletes complained? Because they have not made available any record of a complaint? Because they've given us their word that no student complained? Because unc would have a virtuous and moral process to ensure that if anybody did complain about this corrupt process that it would be handled by an independent "student concerns" staff that would protect the student and not the institution? We're taking their word on this? unc's word? Think about that.

I think you nailed the intent of my post. UNC has a strong honor code that was being violated on multiple levels. The athletes were obviously cheating to remain eligible and certain university employees were in in on it.

Either there was a complete code of silence for 20 or so years while the cheating went on OR someone did complain and was told to shut up or simply ignored. Either way, that fact is damning to UNC.

 

[treyforuk_anon]

Oh, I get it...completely. But it is interesting nonetheless. I mean, when the **** is about to hit the fan (especially to the degree that you are talking), PR can only do so much. At some point, they are going to be forced to hire this guy:

Hopefully there isn't enough lipstick to smear on this pig.

 

[KopiKat]

I think you nailed the intent of my post. UNC has a strong honor code that was being violated on multiple levels. The athletes were obviously cheating to remain eligible and certain university employees were in in on it.

Either there was a complete code of silence for 20 or so years while the cheating went on OR someone did complain and was told to shut up or simply ignored. Either way, that fact is damning to UNC.

and I think you nailed it with the shut up part, Preacher.

 

[KopiKat]

Hopefully there isn't enough lipstick to smear on this pig.

unc makes pigs from lipstick

 

[KyFaninNC]

Re: Cheaters Scandal, SIATGR edition: ANOA 1989-2011? Manalishi
Yesterday at 9:55 PM
(10 votes)
This may be it for awhile.
I see where some of the usual unc apologists have been attacking RCCPMD on Twitter.

That’s wasted time and misplaced blame… not to mention whistling past the graveyard.



I can tell you for a fact that athletic departments from around the country have been displeased at what unc has not only gotten away with for over two decades – but more pointedly because of their administration’s insistent stonewalling. Compliance officials have moved past displeased, and closer to irate, I’d say.



Though I’ve never conversed with him, it appears that RCC doesn’t really have any sort of personal axe to grind. Rather, it’s that he takes his job (and the moral responsibilities held therein) personally. So I applaud him for speaking out on an issue and profession that should be fronted with integrity, and I’m sure others in his specified area are doing the same.



But getting back to the ANOA -- attacking RCC is unfortunately just an ill-guided attempt to make those attackers feel better. Because whatever he shares or doesn’t, the information is out there. RCC did nothing wrong, and certainly hasn’t crossed any legal lines; all you have to do is look through the NCAA’s (and specifically, the Committee on Infractions’) actual bylaws and procedures.



Here’s a breakdown that should help to shine some more light on the situation:



For an idea as to who has access to a decent amount (though not all) of the information contained in the ANOA, I would suggest reviewing Chapter 3-6 of the Committee on Infractions’ Internal Operating Procedures.



There are other people (other than Bubba and Folt, for example) who are also privy to information within the ANOA – pay careful attention to Chapter 3-12-3-1. “Involved individuals” is a very broad term, and can apply to anyone who is a current (or past) collegiate employee and might be facing any sort of show-cause penalty.

Now think… who was interviewed the first go-round who might one day have aspirations to work with college athletes (in ANY capacity) again at some point? How many can you count? If they are deemed “involved individuals”, they have copies. Hmm.



One last bit, and it’s just to give further explanation as to how we’ve reached this particular point in time.



Sticking with the Procedures, there are several events that have exacerbated UNC’s problems and burned any bridges of “gentlemanly courtesy” that might have once existed.

One is pretty obvious, and is covered in Chapter 3-13-1. They gambled, but Nova won.



The other instances are ones that the specifics of which likely won’t ever be publicized; I certainly have no interest in doing so. But they fall under Chapter 4-5.



There is some bad news, though.

Three “banners” likely aren’t at risk.

..… It could be a lot closer to 15, if some of the chatter is correct.



There’s a decent chance that I’m going to be out of pocket for a bit; will find out soon.

Na zdrowie.


Wuffie




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Re: Cheaters Scandal, SIATGR edition: ANOA 1989-2011? Manalis...
Yesterday at 9:57 PM

 

[P.PattersonISwalkingthruthatdoor]

I freaking love using Swahili phrases when discussing the UNC scandal :joy: