FC: Pete Rose removed from banned list

[Whart]

I have softened my stance on him over the years. I was 100% for his not being eligible…
but I met Pete a several years back at an event in the Lehigh Valley as he was speaking at our annual holiday charity event. He spoke about the highs and lows of his career including his banishment. He was an excellent speaker….great stories about his experience. Was positive about his career and his life. Made mistakes….tried to move on.

 

[pamdlion]

I’m fine with him not being in the HOF.

 

[Marshall2323]

Sounds like a revenue generating decision by MLB.

 

[PSU89er]

Rose was puss. Forget the whole gambling thing. While married to his first wife he was fooling around with a girl that was 14 or 15. Pete said he didn't know how young she was but it only took him about 20 years and a lawsuit to acknowledge a girl he fathered during the same marriage to another person.

Guys like Rose can rot in hell, As a father, husband, and general all around guy. He had loser written all over him, and if you paid him, he would have written "loser" on himself or anywhere else. For the right amount of money the guy would pretty much do anything.

He's about the only person I can think of that would admit to lying for years, but do it a book in efforts to profit off it. He just seemed so sincere about the whole thing.

BTW, he was a good baseball player.

 

[1995PSUGrad]

I grew up outside of Cooperstown in a one stoplight town. After my father's funeral, I said the only time that I would ever go back would be for Derek Jeter's induction into the Hall of Fame. Looks like I might go back one more time in the summer of 2028 to see Pete Rose get inducted. I just hate that Pete won't be there to see it.

 

[Mr. Potter]

At this point, I'm sure he doesn't give a sh-t, being dead.

Reiterating Marshall2323: $$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[WestSideLion]

Pete deserves to be in The Hall as a ball player. His tough, gritty play defined a generation of baseball. He won championships wherever he went. And he’s the all-time hits leader, a record that may never be broken.

He wasn’t a great human being, but was a great ball player.

 

[kgilbert78]

It applies to all deceased persons--so Shoeless Joe should be in the Hall first. But this will be, I think, a Veterans Committee decision, given the time passed.

 

[Bwifan]

I have softened my stance on him over the years. I was 100% for his not being eligible…
but I met Pete a several years back at an event in the Lehigh Valley as he was speaking at our annual holiday charity event. He spoke about the highs and lows of his career including his banishment. He was an excellent speaker….great stories about his experience. Was positive about his career and his life. Made mistakes….tried to move on.

I am with you. I have softened in my stance over the years. Just saw both the Phillies and Mike Schmidt all support the commissioners position. Hopefully now Pete will be selected to enter the HOF.

 

[troutrus]

Disrespect to those who follow the rules.

 

[MrTailgate]

I won’t say much, but this is a head scratcher. Manfred says that the death of people permanently banned by the Commissioner’s Office terminates the ban since they no longer represent a threat to the integrity of the game.

So, you then punt it to the HOF and if the Veterans Committee for ease of wording decide that any of the eight ( but really Jackson and Rose ) deserve enshrinement, they get in. If you had by chance the Banned guys and Barry era being voted on the same year, you could have an outcome that two guys who violated the golden rule get in while guys who juiced (Barry) don’t get in. Hard to reconcile that Rose and Jackson get in but you keep closing the door on Barry, Clemens, etc.

There will be a lot of support for Rose and if you vote Rose in you have to vote Jackson in. The Hall is a really screwed up organization with a figurehead that probably feels she should have been consulted on the pope’s vote. I think it’s going to be hilarious that whoever gets in by regular writer vote is going to be an afterthought to any class that includes Rose and Jackson. They have unleashed a tidal wave but the publicity tsunami will be “good for the game” I suppose.

I could go on and it really isn’t what you think of Rose, this is messy.

 

[Sluggo52]

There are no standards anymore.

 

[MaconNitt]

I won’t say much, but this is a head scratcher. Manfred says that the death of people permanently banned by the Commissioner’s Office terminates the ban since they no longer represent a threat to the integrity of the game.

So, you then punt it to the HOF and if the Veterans Committee for ease of wording decide that any of the eight ( but really Jackson and Rose ) deserve enshrinement, they get in. If you had by chance the Banned guys and Barry era being voted on the same year, you could have an outcome that two guys who violated the golden rule get in while guys who juiced (Barry) don’t get in. Hard to reconcile that Rose and Jackson get in but you keep closing the door on Barry, Clemens, etc.

There will be a lot of support for Rose and if you vote Rose in you have to vote Jackson in. The Hall is a really screwed up organization with a figurehead that probably feels she should have been consulted on the pope’s vote. I think it’s going to be hilarious that whoever gets in by regular writer vote is going to be an afterthought to any class that includes Rose and Jackson. They have unleashed a tidal wave but the publicity tsunami will be “good for the game” I suppose.

I could go on and it really isn’t what you think of Rose, this is messy.

Barry and Roger are just dying to get in

 

[Bvillebaron]

Disrespect to those who follow the rules.

Bingo. No standards any more.

 

[razpsu]

One of the greatest players to play the game. Hall of fame!!! And I hate the reds and Phillies

 

[Tom McAndrew]

I disagree with the decision. And I was a big supporter of Rose when he played for the Phillies. (I couldn't stand him when he was with the Reds, but recognized that he was a great player.)

Players, coaches, etc. have it drilled into them at every level of baseball, and repeated each year at Spring Training within MLB, that you can't bet on baseball games. For whatever reason, Rose decided the rules didn't apply to him, and bet on games while he was a coach.

I felt sorry for him that he was ineligible for the HOF, in that his performance on the field certainly warranted his being elected. But his betting on games while still a member of MLB, caused him to be banned from the game and from the HOF. IMHO, the facts of the situation haven't changed, and as such he should still be ineligible for the HOF.

In short, I disagree with this decision.

 

[Marshall2323]

The HOF and MLB baseball is in a crisis of sorts. When I took my sons to Cooperstown, I pointed to Mantle, Ford, Berra and Ted Williams. The heroes of my youth. When my sons take my grandchildren...they will talk about the best players of their youth, who aren't there. Bonds, Clemens and Mc Guire etc. Yet the commissioner who was complicit with promoting the steroids era is in the hall.
Baseball had the dead ball era, an era that for too long banned players of color...the steroids era occurred. Owners, management and the commissioner knew. It's foolish to bar steroids users when at the time no rule against it existed. Thankfully, it was eradicated. Why pretend it didn't happen?
It's okay to have racists in the hall but we draw the line at HGH?

 

[ChandlerPearce58]

Bingo. No standards any more.

Sounds like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

 

[BobPSU92]

Charlie Side-Hustle

 

[WestSideLion]

I won’t say much, but this is a head scratcher. Manfred says that the death of people permanently banned by the Commissioner’s Office terminates the ban since they no longer represent a threat to the integrity of the game.

So, you then punt it to the HOF and if the Veterans Committee for ease of wording decide that any of the eight ( but really Jackson and Rose ) deserve enshrinement, they get in. If you had by chance the Banned guys and Barry era being voted on the same year, you could have an outcome that two guys who violated the golden rule get in while guys who juiced (Barry) don’t get in. Hard to reconcile that Rose and Jackson get in but you keep closing the door on Barry, Clemens, etc.

There will be a lot of support for Rose and if you vote Rose in you have to vote Jackson in. The Hall is a really screwed up organization with a figurehead that probably feels she should have been consulted on the pope’s vote. I think it’s going to be hilarious that whoever gets in by regular writer vote is going to be an afterthought to any class that includes Rose and Jackson. They have unleashed a tidal wave but the publicity tsunami will be “good for the game” I suppose.

I could go on and it really isn’t what you think of Rose, this is messy.

But doesn’t your point underline the procedural differences in being voted in “actively” by the writers vs being voted in after death by the veteran’s committee?

I always thought the vet’s committee existed partly because of the BS games the writers played with induction voting.

Bonds, Clemens and ARod will get in via the vet’s committee. They are numbers 4, 8 and 16 on the MLB all-time WAR rankings.

Bonds is behind only Ruth, Walter Johnson and Cy Young. That’s an incredible achievement.

 

[WestSideLion]

I disagree with the decision. And I was a big supporter of Rose when he played for the Phillies. (I couldn't stand him when he was with the Reds, but recognized that he was a great player.)

Players, coaches, etc. have it drilled into them at every level of baseball, and repeated each year at Spring Training within MLB, that you can't bet on baseball games. For whatever reason, Rose decided the rules didn't apply to him, and bet on games while he was a coach.

I felt sorry for him that he was ineligible for the HOF, in that his performance on the field certainly warranted his being elected. But his betting on games while still a member of MLB, caused him to be banned from the game and from the HOF. IMHO, the facts of the situation haven't changed, and as such he should still be ineligible for the HOF.

In short, I disagree with this decision.

That’s a very fair take, Tom. One interesting dynamic is the legalization of gambling and it becoming so culturally ubiquitous.

All the leagues are in bed with gambling in some form. Sure, they don’t allow players to gamble (a good rule), but I think the hardline cultural stance on gambling has changed.

As Marshall said, MLB is struggling to stay relevant. This may be partly driven by this cultural dynamic.

 

[doctornick]

A cowardly awful decision by MLB. Betting on games is literally the worse thing you can do to undermine the integrity of a sport.

And on top of that, Pete Rose was an absolute scumbag.

 

[1995PSUGrad]

I know that the rules say you can't bet on baseball (if you are a player, manager, etc.) and there is no question that Rose bet on baseball. That makes him a bad guy, a rule breaker, or whatever else you want to call him. But him betting on baseball didn't boost his stats. Guys who took steroids gave themselves an advantage over guys who didn't. I know it's problematic because there are guys in the HOF already who most likely took steroids and others who have never been caught but pretty obviously took them. There is no way to know who took them and who didn't. I can't advocate for someone who essentially cheated. I don't think the HOF should induct it's members based on character; to me it should be about on the field performance. Gambling or not Rose had more hits than anyone else and he didn't cheat to get them.

Don't forget that OJ Simpson is in the NFL HOF.

 

[pamdlion]

T

I know that the rules say you can't bet on baseball (if you are a player, manager, etc.) and there is no question that Rose bet on baseball. That makes him a bad guy, a rule breaker, or whatever else you want to call him. But him betting on baseball didn't boost his stats. Guys who took steroids gave themselves an advantage over guys who didn't. I know it's problematic because there are guys in the HOF already who most likely took steroids and others who have never been caught but pretty obviously took them. There is no way to know who took them and who didn't. I can't advocate for someone who essentially cheated. I don't think the HOF should induct it's members based on character; to me it should be about on the field performance. Gambling or not Rose had more hits than anyone else and he didn't cheat to get them.

Don't forget that OJ Simpson is in the NFL HOF.

Simpson went in the HOF before the murders. We have a full set of information on Rose. He did far worse things than bet on baseball.

 

[PSUJam]

I grew up outside of Cooperstown in a one stoplight town. After my father's funeral, I said the only time that I would ever go back would be for Derek Jeter's induction into the Hall of Fame. Looks like I might go back one more time in the summer of 2028 to see Pete Rose get inducted. I just hate that Pete won't be there to see it.

Rose didn't do this.

 

[MacNit]

I know that the rules say you can't bet on baseball (if you are a player, manager, etc.) and there is no question that Rose bet on baseball. That makes him a bad guy, a rule breaker, or whatever else you want to call him. But him betting on baseball didn't boost his stats. Guys who took steroids gave themselves an advantage over guys who didn't. I know it's problematic because there are guys in the HOF already who most likely took steroids and others who have never been caught but pretty obviously took them. There is no way to know who took them and who didn't. I can't advocate for someone who essentially cheated. I don't think the HOF should induct it's members based on character; to me it should be about on the field performance. Gambling or not Rose had more hits than anyone else and he didn't cheat to get them.

Don't forget that OJ Simpson is in the NFL HOF.

The Juice!

 

[MrTailgate]

This is all great discussion. It’s very layered. Years ago, I heard Mike Lowell speak on this. He didn’t have personal animus against PED users but he had a very simple view. If you took PED’s you were entitled to the extra money you likely earned by better numbers but you sacrificed your legacy in the HOF consideration. There are tons of guys who played where the competition was the essence of the experience and that cheating the competition was a real issue. Some guys still feel VERY strongly about this and their voices are important.

Baseball‘s hold is its legacy. The NBA and NFL don’t honor their past nearly to the extent MLB does. Let me know how often you hear Wilt’s name or even Joe Montana’s name in GOAT talk. But Ruth, Cobb, Williams, and Mays are discussed even though these guys last played 50-100 years ago.

My guess is that all these guys eventually get in and it will be the game’s (and HOF’s) responsibility on how they want to tell the story.

 

[rudedude]

Will the Classic Era Baseball committee vote him in? I guess we shall see. He would need 12 of the 16 votes and they don’t meet until December of 2027.

 

[Connorpozlee]

Rose was my baseball idol growing up. As an adult, I realized he was pretty scummy. No real sense of accountability. I still believe in what I’ve always thought though: He deserves to be banned from baseball but he belongs in the hall of fame for his playing career. Honestly at this point, putting him in is meaningless to me.

 

[LionJim]

So all the Black Sox have been taken off the banned list. I don’t know about Rose but I’d wager that none of the Black Sox will be elected to the HOF.

Edit: The book “Eight Men Out” is not a totally reliable account of the scandal. This is an interesting link:

Eight Myths Out: The Black Sox Scandal – Society for American Baseball Research

sabr.org

 

[kgilbert78]

I suspect that Shoeless Joe has a chance for the Hall. There's a fair question about his involvement in the scandal, if any.

 

[LionJim]

I suspect that Shoeless Joe has a chance for the Hall. There's a fair question about his involvement in the scandal, if any.

Jackson did take the dirty money, $5000.

 

[Fac]

I don't have an issue with Rose as he was betting on his team to win.

I did years ago but my stance has softened.

In the grand scheme of things, who really cares.

 

[Ceasar]

So many interesting and good takes in this thread, great discussion on a divisive issue. I guess as I get older I get more mellow, I am not a big fan of lifetime bans. IMO Rose should have been reinstated sooner. I think there is a point in time when a person who has made a mistake, as Rose did, has served their punishment and can move on. The writers, veterans committee, etc, can still choose not to vote for the person, but I think the lifetime ban is too arbitrary. But to tell a guy he is ineligible for 30+ years, but as soon as he dies, he is reinstated, that seems like cruel and unusual punishment.
I would imagine Rose gets in, not sure about Jackson.

 

[BobPSU92]

Disrespect to those who follow the rules.

Rules, schmules. Just get the cash money.

 

[Bvillebaron]

I disagree with the decision. And I was a big supporter of Rose when he played for the Phillies. (I couldn't stand him when he was with the Reds, but recognized that he was a great player.)

Players, coaches, etc. have it drilled into them at every level of baseball, and repeated each year at Spring Training within MLB, that you can't bet on baseball games. For whatever reason, Rose decided the rules didn't apply to him, and bet on games while he was a coach.

I felt sorry for him that he was ineligible for the HOF, in that his performance on the field certainly warranted his being elected. But his betting on games while still a member of MLB, caused him to be banned from the game and from the HOF. IMHO, the facts of the situation haven't changed, and as such he should still be ineligible for the HOF.

In short, I disagree with this decision.

 

[Karl_Havok]

Great ball player, turd of a person. I guess it depends on what you think the HOF is for as to whether you think he should be in it. Nobody disputes his actual worthiness as a player only.

 

[kgilbert78]

Jackson did take the dirty money, $5000.

There's even a question about that, as I've heard.

 

[Bwifan]

T

Simpson went in the HOF before the murders. We have a full set of information on Rose. He did far worse things than bet on baseball.

Simpson murdered people and is still in the HOF. That is all I need to know. The NFL HOF said they will never remove a player from the HOF once enshrined. I don't agree with that in the least.

 

[Bwifan]

This is all great discussion. It’s very layered. Years ago, I heard Mike Lowell speak on this. He didn’t have personal animus against PED users but he had a very simple view. If you took PED’s you were entitled to the extra money you likely earned by better numbers but you sacrificed your legacy in the HOF consideration. There are tons of guys who played where the competition was the essence of the experience and that cheating the competition was a real issue. Some guys still feel VERY strongly about this and their voices are important.

Baseball‘s hold is its legacy. The NBA and NFL don’t honor their past nearly to the extent MLB does. Let me know how often you hear Wilt’s name or even Joe Montana’s name in GOAT talk. But Ruth, Cobb, Williams, and Mays are discussed even though these guys last played 50-100 years ago.

My guess is that all these guys eventually get in and it will be the game’s (and HOF’s) responsibility on how they want to tell the story.

To me the HOF has lowered its standard by letting people in with PEDs and other issues. Also I just think more players are getting in the HOF with numbers that in the past would not be considered for the HOF. So at this point to me Rose has paid his debt. He is no longer here, so now they should let him in. I totally get and don't totally disagree with people who hold the standards of baseball high and don't want him in. My biggest wish was the Rose was more open and remorseful about betting on baseball. I think people would have been more forgiving then.