I think your anti-Carmel bias could use some exponential smoothing.
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MC 49 PC 14 Final nm
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I think your anti-Carmel bias could use some exponential smoothing.
Who says Lynch would leave due to being fired? Maybe a better opportunity would present itself
I don't know how many years are involved, but PC didn't belong there in any of them.
First of all, they were taking the place of a small or medium level team that deserved to be there. Secondly, any victory they had came at the expense of an actually deserving deserving school.
If they played for the championship regardless of outcome, again, they were usurping someone actually deserving.
Maybe they overlooked the small time opponents. Maybe they shoulld have been seeded at the bottom of 7A.
The worst example of all is Montini in 3A. How humiliating.
Note to Chitown Iish -- CCL big time is anyone usually in the top two levels
Please overlook typos.
He did
"Mt. Carmel better work harder in the offseason, stop their sloppy play, and hire a better coach."
The year pc won in 5a was 2002. That same year mc won in 6a. I guess they are both small class title merchants.
You can’t fault anyone for playing by the established rules. I have the utmost respect for MC, but as far as I know, they never petitioned up when they were in 6A or 7A. Honestly, Rita and ESL (this year) are the only teams I can think of that play up for better competition. Most of the other recent instances were to avoid competition.
I don’t get how Montini playing in 3a is any different than MC winning in 7a. They played in a class based on their enrollment according to the rules. MC titles shouldn’t count by your logic bc they could hang with 8a teams but they didn’t play in 8a. This is a stupid talking point.
I’ll just leave this here. Go Provi! Lol. I’m curious if Provi does indeed win 5A, and if ESL wins 7A, if both teams will move based on those victories. Meaning PC will be moved to 6A and ESL will stay in 7A (since they asked to be moved there this season). I’m still a little confused how the multiplier and winning championships affect playoff seeding. I apologize
Provi would go to 6A based on success factor after making 2 consecutive title games in the same class in consecutive years and ESL will be 7A regardless of how far they go in the playoffs since petitioning up is a 2 year commitment.
I don't recall MC ever being in 6A....not since they went to 8 classes, I maybe wrong but not in the last 20 years probably.
Rita went to 5A in 2019 and lost to Rochester for State. They moved from 4A to 3A in baseball and with Laurence, BR and MC in 4A with Libertyville I get it. Your program needs to have success to drawn in players. Without the multiplier in Football Rita would be 4A, MC would be 5A and BR would be probably 6A. So student wise they are all playing up.
As I mentioned in a post, without the multiplier we are all playing well above our classes. People will always find fault in teams that win....they recruit, they pouch players, they play down. Never ending unwinnable arguments on this board, it's like arguing Religion or politics, very rare do successful teams get a tip of the cap.
I understand why programs stay in their assigned classes. If that class gives them the best chance to win State and promote their program, so be it. Montini is trying to draw kids away from good, free, public programs like York, Hinsdale and Willowbrook, in areas where families pay high property taxes for those suburban public schools. Providence and JCA are fighting against the Lincoln Ways, Plainfields, Morris....if winning a State title draws in students, then so be it. 12 and 13 year olds aren't going to ask "what class?". They are going to see the trophy case and list of alums playing in College and see the Ring and hopefully buy in.
It's not the 20 years ago where there was plenty of students to spread around. Families aren't pumping out 5 or 6 kids anymore like it was back in the days. I know the ins and outs of what these schools need to continue and thrive and whatever the school thinks will help them the so be it.
Only the adults who aren't refereeing or (for the most part, there are certainly some that do) coaching care about classes. In my 30 years of refereeing I never heard a player complain about who they had to play, or where they had to play them. The loudest complainers are sitting in the stands.
A State Championship came out of that. I certainly will take it, and so will the Cascia.
I thought Rita should go to 6A in Football this year. If it helps the program and brings in students, go for it.
This is why there will never be a voluntary split. No out matched public schools to be up on in playoffs if there is a split.
For years, MC has played a 7A/8A schedule ... and played that same level in the playoffs Montini plays basicallly a 6A/7A schedule. but then it's 3A in the playoffs. When's the last time Montini played 3A opponent in the regular season? Use "never' in a sentence. They should be in 6A at least ... they have no business beating up on less sophisticated programs.
Male enrollment should not be the only criterion in playoff placement. Level of your regular season schedule should be considered - although that woul llikely be a bit difficult. Thr in-class seeding is in need of asan overhaul, ads well.
MC has been playing much larger schools in the playoffs for many, many years. Caare to join us?
But MC is much larger than Montini and Provi. Montini doesn’t have a lot of football players on their roster at all and needs guys starting both ways. 45 total Senior, Junior and Sophomore players. MC has 87 players just on varsity. Why doesn’t MC petition up to 8a every year? Is it because they are scared? Probably not it’s just where they are placed based on the rules. If they really wanted to challenge themselves they would petition up to 8a according to your logic.
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Will see next year what class they are all in. There will be your proof. Rita in particular had no issue being in 5a but once they were in 6a with ESL it was time to petition up.
You are correct. MC has never petitioned up. In fact, LA petitioning up from 7A up to 8A a few years back is what actually allowed both programs to win a title. They should have both been in 7A together.
I'm not sure why or when we got placed in 6A that year, but we got out of 6A as soon as we could ... only one season there.
IHSA went to 8 classes in 2001. MC was 6A in 2002 (champions), 2003 (got blown out by GBS in round 1), and 2004 (fell in an epic semi to PC).
Three seasons there. A championship in 02, a drubbing in round one from GBS in 03, and a close loss to fellow trophy shopper PC in a great 2004 semifinal.
They did not ask to get out. Their enrollment dictated they be bumped up in 2005.
MC has never petitioned up. Loyola has. Rita has. I am not aware of any other CCL schools ever petitioning up, but perhaps I am forgetting one.
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I’m aware. That was my point. ESL and Rita are the only schools I can think of that did it to face tougher competition.
Antioch did it to avoid Naz/JCA in 5A. Richards did it to avoid ESL. I thought that was common knowledge?
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Loyola petitioned up to 8A in 2022 (I might be off one year).
Are you saying Loyola petitioned up to avoid Mt.Carmel? Loyola petitioned up because they see themselves as an 8A school and always want to play in the toughest class.
Nobody is saying that at all.
I believe they petitioned up for the reasons you stated, as do most people.
It is unfortunate that it worked out where it deprived the state of a great playoff matchup between LA and MC as those were clearly the best two in the state that year and they played a great regular season game as well.
Loyola opted to petition up. MC did not. I respect LA's choice to play up. I simply wish it either wasn't an option for them (which would force the two best teams in the state to have been in the same 7A class that year) or that MC had chosen to petition up (which would have had the same desired outcome of a LA-MC playoff game, just in 8A).
Again, no knock on anyone. As has been pointed out, nobody really petitions to play up to seek out better competition. ESL, LA, and Rita seem to be the only exceptions.
If an ardent, outspoken supporter of ESL, LA, or Rita wants to go on a multi year long rant against trophy shopping, that would be coming from a place of moral authority. Coming from an ardent, outspoken supporter of a school that has never petitioned up itself is the issue here.
And I don't fault MC or anyone for not petitioning up. It is just interesting that the only big CCL advocate of petitioning up comes from a school who has never petitioned up and who benefitted when Loyola petitioned up to give his school a clearer path to a title.
Good on Loyola for petitioning up in the past.
All this talk of teams not petitionin up or petitioning up to avoid certain teams is why Illinois will never have an open class. Teams don't care about winning at the highest level possible they care about state titles and the easiest path to get those trophies.
Agree to an extent. But if you did make an 8 or 16 team open class, I do feel teams like MC or ESL or Rita or Rice or Batavia may be more likely to opt into the open class if the perception became that the open class is the real title and the largest remaining classification is the highest NIT title.
Right now schools rightfully don't distinguish between an 8A title, 7A title, or 4A title. They are all titles from classes teams were placed into from some objective enrollment measure.
But an open class tiers that to a degree. I agree we won't see an open class anytime soon, but I would love to see it.
MC was in 8A last year and a rematch with BR in 7A would have been the game of the playoffs. As it so often goes with MC, damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Not so sure that was Rita's motivation from the past; they've been 7A for a long time now.
Having typed that, I do agree with McCaravan that Rita should stay in 6A next year. See how that goes. Not sure if the coaching staff will do that because they love the competition, but I think it would be prudent.
However, Rita has done quite well in 7A.
Not a knock on MC at all. I wouldn’t have petitioned up if I were them either. It’s the lone rangers “trophy shopping” quest that loses all self awareness.
kind of a glass houses thing. Don’t worry, there is only one dude throwing stones and it’s not you.
I have a way to fix this problem, sure to make even me mad. We take the Maxpreps rankings (since people love them so much) and we take the highest ranked 8 private schools and put them in 8A. The next 8 go into 7A. So on and so forth. Can adjust the number based on the amount that make the playoffs. We may need to adjust it so that no private goes into a class that its enrollment is larger than, but I am willing to wait and see if it matters.
Honestly, I doubt it. If a team like ESL volunteers then teams like BR and Batavia will be more than happy to battle it out for a 7A title. Schools don't care about the perception of others when it comes to titles, they just want to win them to keep communities, donors, parents, and players happy. Otherwise why haven't schools like LeWin, Wilmington, or Rochester ever volunteered to play up? Hell, even MC has never voluntarily moved up a class and neither has Naz, PC or JCA during years they were winning multiple titles.
