MC 49 PC 14 Final nm

[Silver Rain]

Here are some facts for the Mt. Carmel supporters to contemplate. The following information represents the results of the four games played between the top five teams in the state. To the right of each team is the won/lost record of the team in those games, and then the aggregate point differential.

1. East St. Louis (1-0) +19 points
2. Loyola (1-0) +3
3. Lincoln-Way East (1-0) +1
4. Brother Rice (1-2) +7
5. Mt. Carmel (0-2) -30 points

Mt. Carmel better work harder in the offseason, stop their sloppy play, and hire a better coach.

I think your anti-Carmel bias could use some exponential smoothing.

 

[4Afan]

This is crap. Who cares about data. They have 5 State Championships in 7 years. I don't think they will be in the market for a new coach if you referring to them firing Lynch. I've been invested in the school and the program since Reagan was in Office, I'll bet on them over the data.

Who says Lynch would leave due to being fired? Maybe a better opportunity would present itself

 

[MC63]

so now years of coming up short in 5A is further evidence of PC definitely needing to be playing well above 5A? That’s a particularly terrible argument

I don't know how many years are involved, but PC didn't belong there in any of them.

First of all, they were taking the place of a small or medium level team that deserved to be there. Secondly, any victory they had came at the expense of an actually deserving deserving school.

If they played for the championship regardless of outcome, again, they were usurping someone actually deserving.

Maybe they overlooked the small time opponents. Maybe they shoulld have been seeded at the bottom of 7A.

The worst example of all is Montini in 3A. How humiliating.

Note to Chitown Iish -- CCL big time is anyone usually in the top two levels

Please overlook typos.

 

[McCaravan]

Who says Lynch would leave due to being fired? Maybe a better opportunity would present itself

He did

"Mt. Carmel better work harder in the offseason, stop their sloppy play, and hire a better coach."

 

[chitown-irish]

I don't know how many years are involved, but PC didn't belong there in any of them.

First of all, they were taking the place of a small or medium level team that deserved to be there. Secondly, any victory they had came at the expense of an actually deserving deserving school.

If they played for the championship regardless of outcome, again, they were usurping someone actually deserving.

Maybe they overlooked the small time opponents. Maybe they shoulld have been seeded at the bottom of 7A.

The worst example of all is Montini in 3A. How humiliating.

Note to Chitown Iish -- CCL big time is anyone usually in the top two levels

Please overlook typos.

The year pc won in 5a was 2002. That same year mc won in 6a. I guess they are both small class title merchants.

 

[OnVikings!]

You can’t fault anyone for playing by the established rules. I have the utmost respect for MC, but as far as I know, they never petitioned up when they were in 6A or 7A. Honestly, Rita and ESL (this year) are the only teams I can think of that play up for better competition. Most of the other recent instances were to avoid competition.

 

[Louie1999]

I don't know how many years are involved, but PC didn't belong there in any of them.

First of all, they were taking the place of a small or medium level team that deserved to be there. Secondly, any victory they had came at the expense of an actually deserving deserving school.

If they played for the championship regardless of outcome, again, they were usurping someone actually deserving.

Maybe they overlooked the small time opponents. Maybe they shoulld have been seeded at the bottom of 7A.

The worst example of all is Montini in 3A. How humiliating.

Note to Chitown Iish -- CCL big time is anyone usually in the top two levels

Please overlook typos.

I don’t get how Montini playing in 3a is any different than MC winning in 7a. They played in a class based on their enrollment according to the rules. MC titles shouldn’t count by your logic bc they could hang with 8a teams but they didn’t play in 8a. This is a stupid talking point.

 

[Silver Rain]

nm

 

[JZ1983]

I’ll just leave this here. Go Provi! Lol. I’m curious if Provi does indeed win 5A, and if ESL wins 7A, if both teams will move based on those victories. Meaning PC will be moved to 6A and ESL will stay in 7A (since they asked to be moved there this season). I’m still a little confused how the multiplier and winning championships affect playoff seeding. I apologize

 

[4Afan]

I’ll just leave this here. Go Provi! Lol. I’m curious if Provi does indeed win 5A, and if ESL wins 7A, if both teams will move based on those victories. Meaning PC will be moved to 6A and ESL will stay in 7A (since they asked to be moved there this season). I’m still a little confused how the multiplier and winning championships affect playoff seeding. I apologize

Provi would go to 6A based on success factor after making 2 consecutive title games in the same class in consecutive years and ESL will be 7A regardless of how far they go in the playoffs since petitioning up is a 2 year commitment.

 

[McCaravan]

You can’t fault anyone for playing by the established rules. I have the utmost respect for MC, but as far as I know, they never petitioned up when they were in 6A or 7A. Honestly, Rita and ESL (this year) are the only teams I can think of that play up for better competition. Most of the other recent instances were to avoid competition.

I don't recall MC ever being in 6A....not since they went to 8 classes, I maybe wrong but not in the last 20 years probably.

Rita went to 5A in 2019 and lost to Rochester for State. They moved from 4A to 3A in baseball and with Laurence, BR and MC in 4A with Libertyville I get it. Your program needs to have success to drawn in players. Without the multiplier in Football Rita would be 4A, MC would be 5A and BR would be probably 6A. So student wise they are all playing up.

 

[JZ1983]

Provi would go to 6A based on success factor after making 2 consecutive title games in the same class in consecutive years and ESL will be 7A regardless of how far they go in the playoffs since petitioning up is a 2 year commitment.

Appreciate the info

 

[McCaravan]

I don’t get how Montini playing in 3a is any different than MC winning in 7a. They played in a class based on their enrollment according to the rules. MC titles shouldn’t count by your logic bc they could hang with 8a teams but they didn’t play in 8a. This is a stupid talking point.

As I mentioned in a post, without the multiplier we are all playing well above our classes. People will always find fault in teams that win....they recruit, they pouch players, they play down. Never ending unwinnable arguments on this board, it's like arguing Religion or politics, very rare do successful teams get a tip of the cap.

I understand why programs stay in their assigned classes. If that class gives them the best chance to win State and promote their program, so be it. Montini is trying to draw kids away from good, free, public programs like York, Hinsdale and Willowbrook, in areas where families pay high property taxes for those suburban public schools. Providence and JCA are fighting against the Lincoln Ways, Plainfields, Morris....if winning a State title draws in students, then so be it. 12 and 13 year olds aren't going to ask "what class?". They are going to see the trophy case and list of alums playing in College and see the Ring and hopefully buy in.

It's not the 20 years ago where there was plenty of students to spread around. Families aren't pumping out 5 or 6 kids anymore like it was back in the days. I know the ins and outs of what these schools need to continue and thrive and whatever the school thinks will help them the so be it.

 

[RetiredReferee]

As I mentioned in a post, without the multiplier we are all playing well above our classes. People will always find fault in teams that win....they recruit, they pouch players, they play down. Never ending unwinnable arguments on this board, it's like arguing Religion or politics, very rare do successful teams get a tip of the cap.

I understand why programs stay in their assigned classes. If that class gives them the best chance to win State and promote their program, so be it. Montini is trying to draw kids away from good, free, public programs like York, Hinsdale and Willowbrook, in areas where families pay high property taxes for those suburban public schools. Providence and JCA are fighting against the Lincoln Ways, Plainfields, Morris....if winning a State title draws in students, then so be it. 12 and 13 year olds aren't going to ask "what class?". They are going to see the trophy case and list of alums playing in College and see the Ring and hopefully buy in.

It's not the 20 years ago where there was plenty of students to spread around. Families aren't pumping out 5 or 6 kids anymore like it was back in the days. I know the ins and outs of what these schools need to continue and thrive and whatever the school thinks will help them the so be it.

Only the adults who aren't refereeing or (for the most part, there are certainly some that do) coaching care about classes. In my 30 years of refereeing I never heard a player complain about who they had to play, or where they had to play them. The loudest complainers are sitting in the stands.

 

[Wittymoniker1]

I don't recall MC ever being in 6A....not since they went to 8 classes, I maybe wrong but not in the last 20 years probably.

Rita went to 5A in 2019 and lost to Rochester for State. They moved from 4A to 3A in baseball and with Laurence, BR and MC in 4A with Libertyville I get it. Your program needs to have success to drawn in players. Without the multiplier in Football Rita would be 4A, MC would be 5A and BR would be probably 6A. So student wise they are all playing up.

A State Championship came out of that. I certainly will take it, and so will the Cascia.

 

[McCaravan]

A State Championship came out of that. I certainly will take it, and so will the Cascia.

I thought Rita should go to 6A in Football this year. If it helps the program and brings in students, go for it.

 

[mc140]

You can’t fault anyone for playing by the established rules. I have the utmost respect for MC, but as far as I know, they never petitioned up when they were in 6A or 7A. Honestly, Rita and ESL (this year) are the only teams I can think of that play up for better competition. Most of the other recent instances were to avoid competition.

Teams who petitioned up to 7a were to avoid ESL. Not better competition.

 

[mc140]

As I mentioned in a post, without the multiplier we are all playing well above our classes. People will always find fault in teams that win....they recruit, they pouch players, they play down. Never ending unwinnable arguments on this board, it's like arguing Religion or politics, very rare do successful teams get a tip of the cap.

I understand why programs stay in their assigned classes. If that class gives them the best chance to win State and promote their program, so be it. Montini is trying to draw kids away from good, free, public programs like York, Hinsdale and Willowbrook, in areas where families pay high property taxes for those suburban public schools. Providence and JCA are fighting against the Lincoln Ways, Plainfields, Morris....if winning a State title draws in students, then so be it. 12 and 13 year olds aren't going to ask "what class?". They are going to see the trophy case and list of alums playing in College and see the Ring and hopefully buy in.

It's not the 20 years ago where there was plenty of students to spread around. Families aren't pumping out 5 or 6 kids anymore like it was back in the days. I know the ins and outs of what these schools need to continue and thrive and whatever the school thinks will help them the so be it.

This is why there will never be a voluntary split. No out matched public schools to be up on in playoffs if there is a split.

 

[MC63]

I don’t get how Montini playing in 3a is any different than MC winning in 7a. They played in a class based on their enrollment according to the rules. MC titles shouldn’t count by your logic bc they could hang with 8a teams but they didn’t play in 8a. This is a stupid talking point.

For years, MC has played a 7A/8A schedule ... and played that same level in the playoffs Montini plays basicallly a 6A/7A schedule. but then it's 3A in the playoffs. When's the last time Montini played 3A opponent in the regular season? Use "never' in a sentence. They should be in 6A at least ... they have no business beating up on less sophisticated programs.

Male enrollment should not be the only criterion in playoff placement. Level of your regular season schedule should be considered - although that woul llikely be a bit difficult. Thr in-class seeding is in need of asan overhaul, ads well.

MC has been playing much larger schools in the playoffs for many, many years. Caare to join us?

 

[Colin2299]

Teams who petitioned up to 7a were to avoid ESL. Not better competition.

Prove it

 

[Louie1999]

For years, MC has played a 7A/8A schedule ... and played that same level in the playoffs Montini plays basicallly a 6A/7A schedule. but then it's 3A in the playoffs. When's the last time Montini played 3A opponent in the regular season? Use "never' in a sentence. They should be in 6A at least ... they have no business beating up on less sophisticated programs.

Male enrollment should not be the only criterion in playoff placement. Level of your regular season schedule should be considered - although that woul llikely be a bit difficult. Thr in-class seeding is in need of asan overhaul, ads well.

MC has been playing much larger schools in the playoffs for many, many years. Caare to join us?

But MC is much larger than Montini and Provi. Montini doesn’t have a lot of football players on their roster at all and needs guys starting both ways. 45 total Senior, Junior and Sophomore players. MC has 87 players just on varsity. Why doesn’t MC petition up to 8a every year? Is it because they are scared? Probably not it’s just where they are placed based on the rules. If they really wanted to challenge themselves they would petition up to 8a according to your logic.

 

[chitown-irish]

For years, MC has played a 7A/8A schedule ... and played that same level in the playoffs Montini plays basicallly a 6A/7A schedule. but then it's 3A in the playoffs. When's the last time Montini played 3A opponent in the regular season? Use "never' in a sentence. They should be in 6A at least ... they have no business beating up on less sophisticated programs.

Male enrollment should not be the only criterion in playoff placement. Level of your regular season schedule should be considered - although that woul llikely be a bit difficult. Thr in-class seeding is in need of asan overhaul, ads well.

MC has been playing much larger schools in the playoffs for many, many years. Caare to join us?

So do you not count your 6a title in 2002?

 

[mc140]

Prove it

Will see next year what class they are all in. There will be your proof. Rita in particular had no issue being in 5a but once they were in 6a with ESL it was time to petition up.

 

[JCHillmen10]

You can’t fault anyone for playing by the established rules. I have the utmost respect for MC, but as far as I know, they never petitioned up when they were in 6A or 7A. Honestly, Rita and ESL (this year) are the only teams I can think of that play up for better competition. Most of the other recent instances were to avoid competition.

You are correct. MC has never petitioned up. In fact, LA petitioning up from 7A up to 8A a few years back is what actually allowed both programs to win a title. They should have both been in 7A together.

 

[MC63]

So do you not count your 6a title in 2002?

I'm not sure why or when we got placed in 6A that year, but we got out of 6A as soon as we could ... only one season there.

 

[JCHillmen10]

I don't recall MC ever being in 6A....not since they went to 8 classes, I maybe wrong but not in the last 20 years probably.

Rita went to 5A in 2019 and lost to Rochester for State. They moved from 4A to 3A in baseball and with Laurence, BR and MC in 4A with Libertyville I get it. Your program needs to have success to drawn in players. Without the multiplier in Football Rita would be 4A, MC would be 5A and BR would be probably 6A. So student wise they are all playing up.

IHSA went to 8 classes in 2001. MC was 6A in 2002 (champions), 2003 (got blown out by GBS in round 1), and 2004 (fell in an epic semi to PC).

 

[JCHillmen10]

I'm not sure why or when we got placed in 6A that year, but we got out of 6A as soon as we could ... only one season there.

Three seasons there. A championship in 02, a drubbing in round one from GBS in 03, and a close loss to fellow trophy shopper PC in a great 2004 semifinal.

They did not ask to get out. Their enrollment dictated they be bumped up in 2005.

MC has never petitioned up. Loyola has. Rita has. I am not aware of any other CCL schools ever petitioning up, but perhaps I am forgetting one.