Don't know about drivers/warehouse workers, but they treat other employees very well.
OT: Madison data center tax fight
- Thread starter horshack.sixpack
- Start date
******' A, I live right next door to our county tax ***-essor.
Sir that is Madison The City not Madison The County. The county supervisor majority is decidedly aGAINST Madison the city.
I know I know but I was all jacked up on Chick Fil A this morning and felt the need to make a brick joke
So, does this mean that Cannady’s assessment of each data center building at $292 million included approximately $172 million ($860/5) per building in personal property?
Total assessment was $292 million for the real property & $860 million for the personal Property.
Look at the transcript of the meeting at the kingfish link in the OP. Cannady’s assessment of each of the 5 buildings was $292 million. That’s each.
He’s basically got them valued at 4X what ADS says they’re worth.
There seems to be a real disconnect between what Amazon is saying they spent (these are new construction after all) and what the assessor believes they spent.
True, I do hope once this gets reconciled they’ll publicly indicate what the massive difference can be attributed to.
So it seems data centers may not be as bad as some have made them out to be.
Industry insider here- the reason that AWS does not want to share their actual internal cost numbers is because they have several unique sweetheart deals with certain equipment manufacturers, which if exposed, would piss off every other big name in the industry and ultimately end a massive strategic advantage for the company. As it pertains to the discrepancy in tax assessments, they have a whole team dedicated to arguing for lower property taxes across the entire portfolio. They dig for data at each site to build the best argument for lowering the taxes. But I can tell you- they don’t lie. They don’t fabricate data to defraud the public. Let Madison and AWS work it out, but you have to understand, irrespective of the outcome of this individual event, Madison has won the economic development lottery. Every municipality should be knives out against each other to fight for these deals. Especially for a poor state like Mississippi, the amount of investment, capital, and money coming from the big tech companies (who functionally have the vast majority of investable cash and overall market value of the US Stock Market) is going to be so transformative for the state. Not to mention the high paying jobs that come with this and the support industries which pop up but never get counted in the press releases. Data centers are fantastic for communities. You don’t want to live within 200 feet of one because of sound, but I want my city and county to have as many data centers as can fit.
So you're telling me the tax payer is trying to pay the least amount possible and the tax collector wants the max possible? Wow, breaking news there. They'll wind up in the middle somewhere. Yawn.
Even less surprising is a sixpacker running to the board (sports board, btw) trying to start a political debate. Less surprising than that is who started the thread. Football season is like 2 weeks away. Man I hope we're good.
Even less surprising is a sixpacker running to the board (sports board, btw) trying to start a political debate. Less surprising than that is who started the thread. Football season is like 2 weeks away. Man I hope we're good.
I can tell you about a political party that’s actively rooting for us to build as few data centers as possible. The Chinese Communist one.
I work hard for myself, thanks. For the record, I have no involvement with the AWS data centers in Mississippi. Just am able to provide some insight into the stupidly opaque data center industry.
Seems like smart development of data centers is the way to go.
As far as running out of power, I mean I think we're constantly working on the grid, that won't ever stop.
The resident shill.
This is not a popular product for good reason. As a result quickly becoming politically toxic as well (See the Texas data center moratorium) and the Ohio letter just released
I don't know much about their US datacenter perspective, but I'm not a fan of them. I think we need a measured approach. A bubble is building that will pop. I hope that technology improvement/invention will offset/overcome the drain on natural resources. Typically, the tech curve has stayed ahead of the concerns of depletion, but pretending that these data centers aren't here to take advantage of our willingness to do nearly anything to find a way off of the economic bottom is what frustrates me. Let's at least admit that they laid a dollar on the table and our politicians are dancing without considering what that lifestyle might mean long term...
I’m certainly no expert, but I don’t quickly jump to the tech bros taking advantage of the yokels as the reason for their interest in Mississippi.
Yes, they’re probably hoping to get less pushback here, but I suspect it’s more to do with an abundance of relatively cheap land, water and power.
It’s absolutely because of the abundance of land and infrastructure. It’s exactly where data centers should be. That’s a great position to be in.
“Taking advantage of yokels” is ridiculous framing. Municipalities have competed for these projects for years just like automotive plants or advanced manufacturing projects. They provide more tax revenue than any other use and require less services from the jurisdiction than any other use. For instance, you don’t have to build any new schools due to the data center coming into town. Its operations don’t cause traffic backups. I campaigned for years that data centers be built in Mississippi because I wanted to see the state rise up economically.
Interesting. I think that your 2nd sentence supports the taking advantage position. I don't expect that they will be all bad. I do expect that we will have some unintended negative consequences and there is a possibility that some of those are not ones we would have accepted had we known about it in advance. Below are just a few examples of things we've seen pumped up over the years that were failures and what stands out to me about those is that, in stark contrast to the data center craze, these were not also being built on every piece of flat earth in the world (i.e. direct competition at scale was not as big of a factor). Don't get me wrong, I hope we all win. However, this datacenter building craze is going to be an expensive game of musical chairs, and we all aren't gonna get a piece of Ms Doris' chocolate cake.
I just don't trust our politicians to look much beyond the end of their noses (perhaps as far as their wallets).
| Period | Project | What state leaders expected | Public exposure and outcome |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2003–2004 | Mississippi Beef Processors, Yalobusha County | A state-supported beef-processing operation intended to create an agricultural market and manufacturing jobs | The plant failed shortly after opening. The State Auditor treated it as a long-running taxpayer-loss investigation; six individuals were convicted or pleaded guilty, and only $617,115.86 had been recovered by March 2014. The auditor specifically called for greater oversight of state-supported economic-development programs. |
| 2010–2012 | Twin Creeks Technologies, Senatobia | A solar-technology manufacturing facility expected to invest at least $132 million and create at least 500 jobs | Mississippi provided approximately $26 million through building, equipment, site and infrastructure assistance. The company reportedly never employed more than 25 people and liquidated in 2012. The State Auditor later classified $23,480,239 in public funding as associated with the failed project. |
| 2010–2014 | KiOR, Columbus | A high-profile biofuel refinery that would convert wood chips into transportation fuel and was promoted as creating approximately 1,000 jobs | Mississippi provided a $75 million state loan. The facility did not operate as designed, most employees were laid off, the company defaulted and entered bankruptcy in 2014. The State Auditor’s later accounting classified $76.25 million in public funding as connected to the failed project. |
| 2010–2017 | Kemper County Energy Facility | A first-of-its-kind “clean coal” power plant using Mississippi lignite, coal gasification and carbon capture | The expected cost grew from approximately $2.4 billion to $7.5 billion, and the coal-gasification portion was abandoned in 2017. Under the eventual settlement, Mississippi Power took a reported $6.4 billion write-down, while customers were responsible for approximately $1.1 billion associated with the natural-gas portion. This was primarily a ratepayer/shareholder loss, not an MDA loan default. |
| 2011–2017 | Stion Corporation, Hattiesburg | A solar-panel manufacturing operation expected initially to invest $400 million and create 1,000 jobs | MDA provided a $75 million loan. After the requirements were subsequently reduced, Stion still had only 137 employees when it closed in October 2017. The State Auditor found the company in default, classified $74,760,199 as public funding tied to the failed project and issued a total demand of $92,943,780.86, including principal, interest, local fees and recovery costs. |
| 2011–2017 | GreenTech Automotive, Tunica/Robinsonville | An automobile manufacturing operation expected to invest $60 million and create 350 full-time jobs | The project received $3 million from MDA, while another $2 million state loan went to Tunica County for land. The State Auditor found that GreenTech failed to make loan payments, make the promised investment or create the promised jobs, and issued a demand for $6,360,019.60. The auditor’s broader review identified $4,879,292 in public funding associated with the failed project. |
I’m old enough to remember all these too. The biggest difference between data centers and those are: investment grade credit backstops from the most valuable companies on the planet are behind the data center construction. It’s not musical chairs, and the state isn’t holding the bag.
I’m old enough too. We’ve definitely had some boondoggles, but I also see few similarities between those and data centers being built by massive, extremely credit worthy companies.
The disaster list also leaves off many major economic wins that MDA has been a part of through the years.
A question I’ve been meaning to ask here. This Gabriel Prado guy that did TopGolf in Ridgeland seems to be everywhere lately and seems to have just risen from the ground to save old things in Jackson.
What’s the story with him?? He seems to have a lot of access to capital, but when observing from a distance like me that’s often a faulty assumption.
What’s the story with him?? He seems to have a lot of access to capital, but when observing from a distance like me that’s often a faulty assumption.
Why did they not settle this through fee-in-lieu agreements on the front end?
The FILOTs don’t prevent assessment fights. The language simply spells out the “rules of engagement.”
The better question is why did the company reps and the assessor/staff let it become a public spectacle? Should never have gotten to that point.
Assessor indicated that they have not been forthcoming with cost info and they both indicate that the Amazon tax specialist that did some of the initial work is no longer there.
Wouldn’t be surprised if this is a way to get Amazon back on task and responsive to what the locals need to complete a proper assessment. Who knows??
There are fee in lieu agreements. But those are always based on assessed value.
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A few thoughts I had last night (sad that i woke up in middle of night & this is what came to mind).
Amazon is going to have to give up the information to support their claim. I’m sure they know that. You can’t just appeal your assessment & not provide documentation to support your claim. This is likely all about getting it protected under a court secrecy order. The tax assessor had offered to sign a non-disclosure agreement, but apparently Amazon wants it under a court order. The assessor will subpoena it, Amazon will get the court order, then they’ll provide it and it will either be negotiated out or go before the judge. Also, one reason the assessor is assessing it so high is these are highly specialized buildings with materials & components ordinary buildings don’t have.
Amazon is going to have to give up the information to support their claim. I’m sure they know that. You can’t just appeal your assessment & not provide documentation to support your claim. This is likely all about getting it protected under a court secrecy order. The tax assessor had offered to sign a non-disclosure agreement, but apparently Amazon wants it under a court order. The assessor will subpoena it, Amazon will get the court order, then they’ll provide it and it will either be negotiated out or go before the judge. Also, one reason the assessor is assessing it so high is these are highly specialized buildings with materials & components ordinary buildings don’t have.
If I'm Madison (city or county), I don't really care. They are already the most desirable place to live in central MS. Amazon is already there and it doesn't appear Nissan is going anywhere. Let other folks get all the 'development'.
Great question. Like I said - not knowing much about how this came about - it seems like a huge miss on the part of the AWS attorneys not to have this issue answered before they signed up.
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