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The Mount(s) Rushmore of NCAA Wrestling

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Wrestleknownothing

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Shout out to @jtothemfp who asked the question.

If you had a Borglumian view of wrestling what would that look like? (paraphrasing)

Click here to find out:

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The Mount(s) Rushmore of Wrestling | Wrestling.Guru

Get out your dynamite and don't forget your chisels. It is time to turn a mountain into a monument. I was recently asked by jtothemfp of BWI fame: &quo ...
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Wrestleknownothing

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Coastal2 said:
I'm just an amateur Iowa hater. Wait until the paid ones get here.



And every fact was 100% true and verifiable.

Mitchell Mesenbrink has already exceeded Gable as a folkstyle wrestler also.
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Zzz Ok GIF by Jim Gaffigan
 
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Reslo1

Reslo1

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Wrestleknownothing said:
Shout out to @jtothemfp who asked the question.

If you had a Borglumian view of wrestling what would that look like? (paraphrasing)

Click here to find out:

wrestling.guru

The Mount(s) Rushmore of Wrestling | Wrestling.Guru

Get out your dynamite and don't forget your chisels. It is time to turn a mountain into a monument. I was recently asked by jtothemfp of BWI fame: &quo ...
wrestling.guru wrestling.guru
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This is great work! Imagine my excitement to see Gray Simons, who I have always thought was massively underrated. Thanks for putting this together.
 
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Nitlion1986

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Coastal2 said:
Dean Heil has as many NCAA titles as Dan Gable. The difference is that Heil was the impetus for a rule change...therefore Heil was more influential as a wrestler.
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Gable's chicken wing was probably the reason for the rule change about putting the elbow in the ear.
 
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Coastal2

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Wrestleknownothing said:
So in your world view Carter Starocci should displace Cael Sanderson.
posts brian GIF
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Starocci wasn't undefeated so it goes Sanderson, Uetake then Starocci then the 4 timers, then 3 timers who didn't win as freshman then 3 timers who lost the title other years then the two timers under the three years of eligibility.

If you are including freestyle results, there's a chance that Uetake would overtake Sanderson.
 
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hooraybeer

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Coastal2 said:
Starocci wasn't undefeated so it goes Sanderson, Uetake then Starocci then the 4 timers, then 3 timers who didn't win as freshman then 3 timers who lost the title other years then the two timers under the three years of eligibility.

If you are including freestyle results, there's a chance that Uetake would overtake Sanderson.
Click to expand...
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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Coastal2 said:
Starocci wasn't undefeated so it goes Sanderson, Uetake then Starocci then the 4 timers, then 3 timers who didn't win as freshman then 3 timers who lost the title other years then the two timers under the three years of eligibility.

If you are including freestyle results, there's a chance that Uetake would overtake Sanderson.
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You are completely missing the point. Re-read the question jtothmfp asked.

This is using Borglum's criteria, not what Mount Rushmore has been changed to mean.

And I quote:

"Should we sports fans also convert our largely "Top-4 / Best" usage of Mount Rushmore into these Borglum categories as well?"
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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nerfstate said:
One minor but vital correction is necessary in the article: @jtothemfp may show up here from time to time, but his fame is inexorably linked to BSD-Wrestle. With apologies to Tom and Greg, of course.
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I was pretty sure that was the case, and even went to BSD to see if I could figure it out, but in the end I doubted myself and went with here. I will change that.
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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hooraybeer said:
What about a guy like Bill Koll? 70+ wins zero losses 3x ncaa champ and then went to serve his country in Ww2 (awarded a bronze star).
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Joejitsu said:
and first wrestler to be voted most outstanding wrestler 2x at the NCAAs / legit claim to a spot!
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Matter7172 said:
Yep. Huge omission. His titles were after WWII, though. After Omaha Beach on D-Day, the NCAA wrestling tournament must have seemed like a cakewalk.
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Where would you put him?
 
nerfstate

nerfstate

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Matter7172 said:
Gable's media spotlight lasted a long time, but its impact was minimal in the long run.
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Not sure we can say Gable didn't have a lasting impact. We've all witnessed sustained resistance to the loose/resilient "Cael Way." IMO it in large part comes from a deeply ingrained toughness that Gable really brought to the foreground and permeated the sport nationally for decades and continues to. In fact, the inflexiblity of that mindset has actually helped Cael sustain his success.
 
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CowbellMan

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That looks like a ton of work done and a great read. Thank you.

I have only one comment and that is the one liner about “real debate” of whether 159-0 is better than 4 championships at 4 different weights. One is absurd (159-0) and the other did something every champion wrestler has done their entire career: win at increasingly higher weights. You know what’s more impressive than Dake’s weight gain? Pat Smith didn’t grow at all!!

This not to minimize Dake’s career and everything else mentioned in the article. Dude was and still is a monster with a brutal defense. If he had won 4 but over 3 weight classes, would that make his greatness less?? It would not.

Weight changes are fun but really unrelated data. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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CowbellMan said:
That looks like a ton of work done and a great read. Thank you.

I have only one comment and that is the one liner about “real debate” of whether 159-0 is better than 4 championships at 4 different weights. One is absurd (159-0) and the other did something every champion wrestler has done their entire career: win at increasingly higher weights. You know what’s more impressive than Dake’s weight gain? Pat Smith didn’t grow at all!!

This not to minimize Dake’s career and everything else mentioned in the article. Dude was and still is a monster with a brutal defense. If he had won 4 but over 3 weight classes, would that make his greatness less?? It would not.

Weight changes are fun but really unrelated data. 🤷🏻‍♂️
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Fair points

And as to the amount of work...it was either do this or do work. The choice was easy.
 
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nerfstate

nerfstate

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CowbellMan said:
That looks like a ton of work done and a great read. Thank you.

I have only one comment and that is the one liner about “real debate” of whether 159-0 is better than 4 championships at 4 different weights. One is absurd (159-0) and the other did something every champion wrestler has done their entire career: win at increasingly higher weights. You know what’s more impressive than Dake’s weight gain? Pat Smith didn’t grow at all!!

This not to minimize Dake’s career and everything else mentioned in the article. Dude was and still is a monster with a brutal defense. If he had won 4 but over 3 weight classes, would that make his greatness less?? It would not.

Weight changes are fun but really unrelated data. 🤷🏻‍♂️
Click to expand...
I mostly agree with you--I am definitely weary of all the breathless mentions of his weight-gains too. The only tick in Dake’s favor with his 4 weight classes is it theoretically exposed him to more talent over the course of his career. He likely beat more better guys than say Zain did because every contender left (shoutout to Sorensen) 149lbs as fast as they could after Zain’s sophmore season. Kyle moved into freakin DT’s class his final year and still did the thing. That shouldn’t necessarily detract from the Zains of the world, but it is impressive.
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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CowbellMan said:
every champion wrestler has done their entire career: win at increasingly higher weights.
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This got me thinking. Yes, it is true through grade school, and sometimes true through high school, but it is absolutely not true in college.

We all know that Dake is the only wrestler to win a title at four different weights. But he is also the only wrestler to AA at four different weights. As a matter of fact he is the only wrestler to so much as win a single NCAA tournament match at four weights. And as near as I can tell, he is the only wrestler to even qualify for the NCAA tournament at four weights.

Trivia question: There were seven wrestlers who AA'd at three weights. How many can you name?
 
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Random4598375

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Wrestleknownothing said:
This got me thinking. Yes, it is true through grade school, and sometimes true through high school, but it is absolutely not true in college.

We all know that Dake is the only wrestler to win a title at four different weights. But he is also the only wrestler to AA at four different weights. As a matter of fact he is the only wrestler to so much as win a single NCAA tournament match at four weights. And as near as I can tell, he is the only wrestler to even qualify for the NCAA tournament at four weights.

Trivia question: There were seven wrestlers who AA'd at three weights. How many can you name?
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Truax is the first that jumps to mind.

Edit: Truax also qualified at 4 different weights as well, but only wrestled in the tournament at 3 because of Covid.
 
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PennState1985

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I honestly never thought four titles at four weights was some Superman pinnacle. It was just Dake’s path. No different than any other path imho. Weight is meaningless, and no, I do not subscribe to the theory that Dake had it tougher. He knew he had DT’s number so the risk was minimal.
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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Random4598375 said:
Truax is the first that jumps to mind.

Edit: Truax also qualified at 4 different weights as well, but only wrestled in the tournament at 3 because of Covid.
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Nitlion1986 said:
Bo and Q should have come to mind quicker.
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Good work. You got the three with PSU connections. Of the remaining four, two went to Iowa State, one to Michigan, and one to Arizona State.
 
Joejitsu

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Nobody is saying Dan Gable either but he was 117-1 / had over 100 consecutive wins.... a streak of more than 25 straight pins.... and his olympic run was un heard of

Dan Hodge.... yes he was only 46-0 but he had 36 pins and did not surrender a single takedown
 
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