Easy Shutdown of Power Plants

[Aardvark86]

SMFH. How about hell no Peepaw? People live there, remember??? People that Trump promised he would help....

With full disclosure that I think international law is more or less a joke, and particularly as it relates to the laws of war which are only ever enforced by the winners, yet also fully recognizing that there are in fact international norms about minimizing civilian casualties and targets, I have to say, it's a fascinating conundrum that modern precision weaponry creates.

Specifically, if you actually "have" weapons that can be reliably targeted only against "wholly" military targets:
- What is the standard for erroneous strikes (EG, faulty intel) or collateral damage? Surely you get at least one **** up, and explosions do sorta...spread outward (hence the "ex").
- Can economic/ infrastructure targets ever become legitimate military targets, despite the unavoidable impact attacking them has on civilians? (cough cough Hormuz)
- If you run out, do you have to stop or can you switch to less precise munitions
- If the other side doesn't have such weapons (or doesn't have as many or as good), are they also restricted from responding more indiscriminately, or using weapons that are less precise?
- What is the role of ground forces, where the nature of human interactions is inescapably less 'targeted'?
- If waging war means having to focus on military targets, might that actually prolong wars or make them worse? It strikes me that it creates a natural incentive to "ride out the storm" militarily, just as Iran is presently doing, in a way that 'winning' ultimately increases the likelihood of collateral damage over time, and eventually necessitates ground troop deployments to "force" final victory over a defiant yet defeated enemy.

I mean, I know I'm on a SC-based board here and all, but Tecumsah Sherman might well have been on to something w/r/t his philosophy of warmaking.

 

[Hotshoe]

Again, I don’t want them to have a nuke. I can understand why they may want one. We aren’t invading North Korea anytime soon. They are a fly in the ointment. But I don’t lose any sleep over it. I do worry about a global recession because of this war.

So Iran really does matter and means something to us.

 

[dpic73]

attacking dual use facilities is not. Don't the Iranian military get power from those plants? don't the Iranian military use bridges to move troops equipment and supplies? Didn't we bomb all these things in WWII and Vietnam?

I understand the technical definition but bombing them back to the Stone Age crosses the line from being a military "excursion" to being a full fledged war crime. He's threatening to end their civilization now. The majority of Americans are horrified this is the man that speaks for us and now we'll all be accessories to his crimes.

 

[dpic73]

Happy Electric Station and Bridge day everyone. I hope the Iranians make the right choice. That was nice of Trump to give them the chance.

All parents know one of the most effective lines for your kids. It tells them you mean business and it’s going to happen whether they like it or not. “We can do this the easy way, or the the hard way. The choice is yours.” Sometimes the kids choose the hard way for whatever reason. Life is going to be tough if they choose the hard way.

Depending om how things play out, Trump can also choose the hard way or the easy way. We can send him to the Hague or we can impeach him. Hope he makes the right choice.

 

[Hotshoe]

All the people? I saw a lot of folks hot on the trail of the downed pilot after the regime asked them too. I’m just pointing out that we don’t know what percentage want regime change. I wish they would rise up already.

People, civilians, not the military. You're just a troll at this point.

 

[kidmike41]

So there is the judgement call. You don't want it, but would be ok with Iran becoming a nuclear power. This admin and every other for almost 50yrs has said, hard no to Iran becoming a nuclear power. This particular admin however is dealing with it in different way than previously. If I accurately stated your position, then by definition even a short conflict would be a negative from that perspective. .

I think Iran saying they had a quantitiy of uranium and only needed a short time to push it to weapons grade factored in to the go decision. I think the fact that Iran's proxies are at the weakest they have ever been factored in. I think that the degredation of Iran's air defenses and other systems from the 12 day war factored in. I believe that Irans ever increasing production rates and stockpiles of offensive missiles factored in. I believe that the exact timing of the initial strikes WERE driven by Israeli intelligence having rock solid info that all Iranian leadership was goign to be meeting. It might have been sooner than we wanted, but I believe that we (the US admin) thought that we would end up needing military action anyway, so that was too good of a target to pass up. Might as well start the war from there.

The North Korean regime is actually more rational than the muslim crazies of the IRGC, IMO.

Pakistan Muslims must not be as crazy I guess?

I was ok with Midnight Hammer. I thought it was successful and so did the president apparently. I think there was a miscalculation that this would be a quick decapitation strike. I don’t see them folding and don’t want this to drag on. Iraq killed 500k of them in 1980 and they didn’t fold then either.

 

[kidmike41]

Iran has already proven you wrong due to their closing the Straight. It's literally why all of you short term thinkers are angry. So, Iran is nothing to us? Really? I suppose, since China has so many needed resources we use, yet is not at war with us, they doesn't affect us either?

Any sort of rag tag group with a couple of missiles could close the straight. It was also open before the war. The short term thinkers started the war.

 

[Aardvark86]

I understand the technical definition but bombing them back to the Stone Age crosses the line from being a military "excursion" to being a full fledged war crime. He's threatening to end their civilization now. The majority of Americans are horrified this is the man that speaks for us and now we'll all be accessories to his crimes.

While it's always easy and fun to seize on crazy rhetoric, i am pretty sure that's not what makes the case.

 

[kidmike41]

People, civilians, not the military. You're just a troll at this point.

They were offering a $50k reward to civilians who captured the airman. There were videos of lots of people after them. No troll just pointing out facts.

 

[hopefultiger13]

That brown people statement stuck in my mind too

That’s pretty racist and insulting to call them brown people in some manner of making being a brown person sound derogatory

Persians are not brown and what is wrong with being a brown person

Yet another sarcism meter is nonfunctional.

 

[PalmettoTiger1]

Yet another sarcism meter is nonfunctional.

OK my bad Now I understand that you were mocking the brown people narrative

 

[baltimorened]

If have a gun and if I can order some bullets for it but it was take a couple weeks for Amazon to deliver them. Have I threatened you? Maybe my gun is for self defense? Maybe you are jumping to conclusions. Where is the threat that so many are saying was made?

You can’t even define your logic for taking Kharg island other than that is the talking point.

While it's always easy and fun to seize on crazy rhetoric, i am pretty sure that's not what makes the case.

I'd we willing to bet, that after tonight, Iran will not have been bombed back to the stone age....Trump has a slight tendency to exaggerate things.

 

[hopefultiger13]

OK my bad Now I understand that you were mocking the brown people narrative

No worries man. I know we disagree on a lot, but I'm here to tell you that I've absolutely no interest in a person's skin color. I'll be the first to admit my communication is not the best, I thought the following paragraphs about killing lots of Iranians and having a country hating America and mentioning the girls school that we destroyed would make my sarcasm obvious, but since you are the 2nd person to say something, maybe not. I'll need to be more careful going forward.

 

[hopefultiger13]

I'd we willing to bet, that after tonight, Iran will not have been bombed back to the stone age....Trump has a slight tendency to exaggerate things.

Yep, this is a TACO moment, and Thank God for it. I don't believe that even Trump (and God knows I dislike the man) would be evil enough to order the wholesale bombing of civilian areas. This seems like a big bluff to me, but even though I don't know much about the Art of the Deal, it seems like a total case of Trump running that mouth of his and most people would know he's bluffing. It's not a good look whether he's bluffing or serious.

 

[hopefultiger13]

Let me say 200 children killed at a school accidentally and NOT TARGETED BY THE US

45,000 IRANIANS MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN MURDERED BY THE REGIME

I WOULD SAY THEY ARE 44,800 PEOPLE AHEAD ON THE REGIME KILLINGS

Absolutely. I even said it in the post you quoted. I have no doubt that was an accident. And don't mistake my opposition to the war, with somehow liking the Iranian government. They are an enemy country and whatever happens to them is OK by me generally. The folks running that country are bad, bad people. I'm against this war for the same reason I'm against the Wall between the US and Mexico. We are going to spend a shitload of money and it's not going to work. Five billion dollar wall, $49.95 aluminum ladder and some snips for the wire.

 

[tboonpickens]

 

[PalmettoTiger1]

Absolutely. I even said it in the post you quoted. I have no doubt that was an accident. And don't mistake my opposition to the war, with somehow liking the Iranian government. They are an enemy country and whatever happens to them is OK by me generally. The folks running that country are bad, bad people. I'm against this war for the same reason I'm against the Wall between the US and Mexico. We are going to spend a shitload of money and it's not going to work. Five billion dollar wall, $49.95 aluminum ladder and some snips for the wire.

Let me enlighten you a bit on me

I am a conservative middle class American and like a lot of what Trump is doing but also worry and am concerned about what has to do to deal with the messes people have created such as immigration

Totally agree with Venezuela Cuba and am wavering on Ukraine thinking the Europeans need to lead that

On Iran there was coming a day that Tel Aviv was going to be nuked by the Iranians and possible European countries would be under the threat

The zealots are really zealots and their goals are to kill

Now that being said it greatly distresses me that we have to use military force however I have to live with the knowledge that I believe based on the Mullahs behavior the US has no choice as Europe is now wearing military baby diapers and using training wheels

If the present Russian Army attacked Europe without the US they would be overrun

That’s what bothers me about the European laziness in protecting themselves Let the US pay for it

But to my point

I am praying to God and Jesus somewhere in those Iranian minds they will say let’s make a deal with Trump

No more bombing No more deaths No more terrorism

I just don’t have faith in the Iranians making the deal so I expect more war not peace

And to be sure Iran cannot threaten shipping in the Strait of Hormuz or terrorize at will across the globe

I will never find myself enjoying this mess

Let’s all pray this war ends with a just resolution and Iran and its people prosper

And I sincerely mean that

 

[LafayetteBear]

We dont need NATo or Europes or anyone else’s permission to punch the bully in the mouth.

Look, I don't believe in acts of violence against politicians. Even Cheeto Pedo. But I will not exactly cry if he gets punched in the mouth. Have at it, but be careful that he doesn't piss or sheyt on you.

 

[dpic73]

 

[baltimorened]

there are lots of these "baby trump" videos on the internet..My wife watches them and I can hear her laughing in the other room. You think they're real? How did they find someone who looks and sounds like Trump but is a baby?

 

[dpic73]

there are lots of these "baby trump" videos on the internet..My wife watches them and I can hear her laughing in the other room. You think they're real? How did they find someone who looks and sounds like Trump but is a baby?

Yes Ned, these are real people that sound just like the people they're playing.

 

[baltimorened]

Yes Ned, these are real people that sound just like the people they're playing.

I knew it. My wife said they were AI generated...thanks for validating. Now I can go tell her how wrong she is. Hope she doesn't get mad.

 

[LafayetteBear]

I understand the technical definition but bombing them back to the Stone Age crosses the line from being a military "excursion" to being a full fledged war crime. He's threatening to end their civilization now. The majority of Americans are horrified this is the man that speaks for us and now we'll all be accessories to his crimes.

dpic: Have you noticed that the Trump Cultist crowd has begun using the term "dual use" as a supposed justification for bombing civilian infrastructure? Power plants supply power to both Iranian civilians and the Iranian military, no? Bridges are used by both Iranian civilians and the Iranian military, no? It's laughable.

By that same token, Trump had better get busy bombing schools, hospitals and mosques. Schools educate the children of Iranian soldiers, no? Hospitals treat both Iranian civilians and Iranian soldiers, no? Mosques are attended by both Iranian civilians and Iranian soldiers, no?

 

[kidmike41]

dpic: Have you noticed that the Trump Cultist crowd has begun using the term "dual use" as a supposed justification for bombing civilian infrastructure? Power plants supply power to both Iranian civilians and the Iranian military, no? Bridges are used by both Iranian civilians and the Iranian military, no? It's laughable.

By that same token, Trump had better get busy bombing schools, hospitals and mosques. Schools educate the children of Iranian soldiers, no? Hospitals treat both Iranian civilians and Iranian soldiers, no? Mosques are attended by both Iranian civilians and Iranian soldiers, no?

This is the escalation trap of any bombing campaign. We are going to hit them harder we need more targets. At some point there aren't any targets so you have to start coming up with dual use stuff. Well I guess a military convoy could go over this bridge, now it is a target. This is not an inherently Trump Cultist problem.

 

[dpic73]

dpic: Have you noticed that the Trump Cultist crowd has begun using the term "dual use" as a supposed justification for bombing civilian infrastructure? Power plants supply power to both Iranian civilians and the Iranian military, no? Bridges are used by both Iranian civilians and the Iranian military, no? It's laughable.

By that same token, Trump had better get busy bombing schools, hospitals and mosques. Schools educate the children of Iranian soldiers, no? Hospitals treat both Iranian civilians and Iranian soldiers, no? Mosques are attended by both Iranian civilians and Iranian soldiers, no?

Yes, they heard this was the line they should use to absolve themselves of guilt when thousands of their citizens are bombed or later die in large numbers because hospitals and other medical facilities go down.

But remember that Trump praised the Iranian people and told them he would help them by.....obliterating their civilization? Because he cares....

 

[baltimorened]

dpic: Have you noticed that the Trump Cultist crowd has begun using the term "dual use" as a supposed justification for bombing civilian infrastructure? Power plants supply power to both Iranian civilians and the Iranian military, no? Bridges are used by both Iranian civilians and the Iranian military, no? It's laughable.

By that same token, Trump had better get busy bombing schools, hospitals and mosques. Schools educate the children of Iranian soldiers, no? Hospitals treat both Iranian civilians and Iranian soldiers, no? Mosques are attended by both Iranian civilians and Iranian soldiers, no?

Bear, I think you might be losing it...we bombed bridges, power stations and anything else that could have been used by the military during Vietnam...Democrat president, no war crimes.

Somebody else posted other "excursions" presidents have taken under the war powers act where "dual use" facilities were bombed. Here's an AI generated blurb:
Yes, American forces played a leading role in the 78-day NATO aerial bombing campaign (Operation Allied Force) against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia between March and June 1999. Aimed at halting Serbian attacks on ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, U.S. Navy and Air Force planes conducted significant sorties, targeting military infrastructure, governmernt buildings, and infrastructure across Yugoslavia.....I believe Bill Clinton was president in 1999....He's not a war criminal

The concept of dual use might be new to you but not people who plan and fight wars. You fairly, maybe, criticize others for lack of military service/knowledge, you might want to take a step back on this one.....Of course, the concept of war crimes is determined by the victor.

Israel did in fact bomb Gaza (new home of Trump city by the beach) back to the stone age. So far I haven't heard the UN or whomever pressing War crimes against them. Doesn't mean they won't, but they haven't....

boy sometimes you guys on the left get as wound up over issues feeding your biases as the guys on the right do in feeding theirs.

 

[baltimorened]

Yes, they heard this was the line they should use to absolve themselves of guilt when thousands of their citizens are bombed or later die in large numbers because hospitals and other medical facilities go down.

But remember that Trump praised the Iranian people and told them he would help them by.....obliterating their civilization? Because he cares....

please see my response to bear, below...

 

[kidmike41]

Videos and reports out about women and children lining up on bridges and outside power plants to prevent them from being struck.

 

[baltimorened]

Videos and reports out about women and children lining up on bridges and outside power plants to prevent them from being struck.

so, from all knowing board, is putting women and children directly into the CEP of a known bombing a war crime?

 

[dpic73]

Bear, I think you might be losing it...we bombed bridges, power stations and anything else that could have been used by the military during Vietnam...Democrat president, no war crimes.

Somebody else posted other "excursions" presidents have taken under the war powers act where "dual use" facilities were bombed. Here's an AI generated blurb:
Yes, American forces played a leading role in the 78-day NATO aerial bombing campaign (Operation Allied Force) against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia between March and June 1999. Aimed at halting Serbian attacks on ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, U.S. Navy and Air Force planes conducted significant sorties, targeting military infrastructure, governmernt buildings, and infrastructure across Yugoslavia.....I believe Bill Clinton was president in 1999....He's not a war criminal

The concept of dual use might be new to you but not people who plan and fight wars. You fairly, maybe, criticize others for lack of military service/knowledge, you might want to take a step back on this one.....Of course, the concept of war crimes is determined by the victor.

Israel did in fact bomb Gaza (new home of Trump city by the beach) back to the stone age. So far I haven't heard the UN or whomever pressing War crimes against them. Doesn't mean they won't, but they haven't....

boy sometimes you guys on the left get as wound up over issues feeding your biases as the guys on the right do in feeding theirs.

War crimes court issues warrants for Netanyahu and former Israeli defense minister

The world’s top war crimes court issued warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former Defense Minister Yoav Gallant. The court said they committed crimes against humanity for intentionally depriving Gazans of food and directing attacks against civilians. Israel called it an...

www.pbs.org

 

[baltimorened]

War crimes court issues warrants for Netanyahu and former Israeli defense minister

The world’s top war crimes court issued warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former Defense Minister Yoav Gallant. The court said they committed crimes against humanity for intentionally depriving Gazans of food and directing attacks against civilians. Israel called it an...

www.pbs.org

hadn't seen that, thanks...but that doesn't charge him with bombing power plants, bridges and other infrastructure as I read it.

I thought that was the issue...power plants and bridges.

 

[kidmike41]

so, from all knowing board, is putting women and children directly into the CEP of a known bombing a war crime?

I don't know. What is the best possible outcome?

 

[Aardvark86]

so, from all knowing board, is putting women and children directly into the CEP of a known bombing a war crime?

why yes, yes it is.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule97

But of course, this is a grassroots/voluntary/patriotic action, even if it is occurring in a totalitarian regime that includes martyrdom among its tenets.

 

[dpic73]

please see my response to bear, below...

I previously said I understand the technical definition but what he's threatening goes far beyond that line. This was a war of choice that we started and now that we've killed thousands of their citizens, the entire leadership, bombed 13,000 locations and caused the war to spread to neighboring countries, we need to dial back on the N Korean style saber rattling and work on a diplomatic end to this hostility that has already gone too far. The people there have suffered enough and don't have the resources to take back their country on their own. Bombing them into the Stone Age does not help them and should never be on the menu, even if it's rhetoric.

 

[Aardvark86]

hadn't seen that, thanks...but that doesn't charge him with bombing power plants, bridges and other infrastructure as I read it.

I thought that was the issue...power plants and bridges.

you left out shipping lanes.

In all seriousness, I'm really not into whataboutism, but this just underscores that combatants routinely invoke international conflict law when, and only when, it suits them.

 

[kidmike41]

why yes, yes it is.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule97

But of course, this is a grassroots/voluntary/patriotic action, even if it is occurring in a totalitarian regime that includes martyrdom among its tenets.

So what should we do?

 

[baltimorened]

I don't know. What is the best possible outcome?

I wonder if they're going to be able to stand there 24/7.

Not to be funny, but i wonder what would happen with a low level pass of a couple of F15s. It might seem less and less like a good idea at that point.

 

[Aardvark86]

I wonder if they're going to be able to stand there 24/7.

Not to be funny, but i wonder what would happen with a low level pass of a couple of F15s

not much. A-10s or an AC130, on the other hand...

 

[Aardvark86]

So what should we do?

oh, definitely file a lawsuit in the ICC...

 

[kidmike41]

oh, definitely file a lawsuit in the ICC...

Hit them with the discombobulator and then bomb then?