Freshman Led Teams Just Aren’t Winning The Titles Anymore

[I’m The Village Idiot]

I would say if we measure overall success in the last 26 years that most teams I would think have some freshmen as part of their rotation. I am not using a NC as the model for success because winning a natty is not the norm for any school.

I would look at winning your conference for the regular season, conference tourney championship, EE etc. I bet there are/were freshman who contributed to that success .

Nobody here thinks you can’t have a freshman as part of the rotation. The point is about NECESSITY. Freshman are not a NECESSITY. There is no specific requirement that your fourth or fifth best player be a freshman, a sophomore, a junior or a senior.

 

[TALtruthatlast]

What a moronic post. UConn doesn’t even make the final four without a freshman. Specifically one Pope basically turned down to pick bum over.

It takes both freshmen and transfers to win. UConn has won with a clear formula. 1-2 highly talented freshmen, 2-4 returnees and 2-3 real good transfers.

Problem is Pope can’t get either one of talented freshmen or good transfers.

I think there’s a difference between having freshmen as your key go to guys versus having freshmen as key role players. No one said freshmen are invalids and one hitting a shot to win a game is hardly a stunner or disproves the argument that relying overly on OAD’s is a bad idea.

 

[FLBBNFAN]

Nobody here thinks you can’t have a freshman as part of the rotation. The point is about NECESSITY. Freshman are not a NECESSITY. There is no specific requirement that your fourth or fifth best player be a freshman, a sophomore, a junior or a senior.

Ok but you do realize our coach disagrees with you on that point and that they are a necessity. Pope has spent the past 2 seasons criss crossing the entire country trying to reel in every top 5* .

Just because we cant land a top freshman recruit doesn't imply they aren't needed in our rotation. A big difference there.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Ok but you do realize our coach disagrees with you on that point and that they are a necessity. Pope has spent the past 2 seasons criss crossing the entire country trying to reel in every top 5* .

Just because we cant land a top freshman recruit doesn't imply they aren't needed in our rotation. A big difference there.

You must not know my post history.

One of my biggest criticisms of Pope is that he prioritized raw talent over fit in year two.

We also saw Kelvin Sampson finally drop big time in quality when he started building around more freshman.

Freshman as supplementary pieces (a la Karaban in 2023 or McKinney in 2026) are fine, but when you have to depend on them to lead you through a one and done tournament, it has not proven to work in this era.

 

[AJG-15]

Greatest freshman class of all time and yet the national championship game is going to be between two veteran led teams.

Michigan’s fourth leading scorer is a freshman.
UConn’s fifth and sixth leading scorers are freshman.

I wonder why things have changed so much. What do you think caused it?

UConn freshman says hello.


takes a talented freshman to take down other talented freshmanteam that could win the Title.

all the champs in the last 15 years had super talented freshmen.

you need both experience and super talented freshmen to win a championship.

experience can run the coach’ system but talent takes over the game when other coaches block the system.

super talented players are typically freshman other emise they are already in nba .

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

UConn freshman says hello.


takes a talented freshman to take down other talented freshmanteam that could win the Title.

all the champs in the last 15 years had super talented freshmen.

you need both experience and super talented freshmen to win a championship.

experience can run the coach’ system but talent takes over the game when other coaches block the system.

super talented players are typically freshman other emise they are already in nba .

Hello to the fourth leading scorer.

P.S. no one thinks you can’t have a freshman as your fourth or fifth leading scorer.

To be the “most knowledgeable fanbase in CBB” we sure do have a lot of people that struggle to understand a basic point:

THE POINT: Overreliance on OAD freshman is a net negative if you want to cut down the nets. The teams that are winning all the titles have experienced stars leading the way. Not that hard to understand.

 

[SenseMaker_Cats]

UConn freshman says hello.


takes a talented freshman to take down other talented freshmanteam that could win the Title.

all the champs in the last 15 years had super talented freshmen.

you need both experience and super talented freshmen to win a championship.

experience can run the coach’ system but talent takes over the game when other coaches block the system.

super talented players are typically freshman other emise they are already in nba .

Mullins was 5-24 on 3s in the games leading up to the final four. 0-4 before hitting the big shot. UCONN made it to the final four because of their juniors and seniors.

 

[FLBBNFAN]

I think there’s a difference between having freshmen as your key go to guys versus having freshmen as key role players. No one said freshmen are invalids and one hitting a shot to win a game is hardly a stunner or disproves the argument that relying overly on OAD’s is a bad idea.
[/QUOTE

You must not know my post history.

One of my biggest criticisms of Pope is that he prioritized raw talent over fit in year two.

We also saw Kelvin Sampson finally drop big time in quality when he started building around more freshman.

Freshman as supplementary pieces (a la Karaban in 2023 or McKinney in 2026) are fine, but when you have to depend on them to lead you through a one and done tournament, it has not proven to work in this era.

Dude just say you like Pope and are good with him running our program versus the mental gymnastics in trying to defend his performance here on the court and off.

I would take Houstons season over our season or Dukes or even Arkansas. I dont care if we are defensive minded like Houston or more up tempo like Arizona. Don't care on the system as long as we win . I'll take scoreboard over a spreadsheet.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Genuinely asking this:

Is every discussion to you only about whether or not you like Pope?
Is every posited question a treatise on whether Pope is good or bad?

We are talking about CBB as a whole. Not Pope.

@FLBBNFAN

 

[SenseMaker_Cats]

Hello to the fourth leading scorer.

P.S. no one thinks you can’t have a freshman as your fourth or fifth leading scorer.

To be the “most knowledgeable fanbase in CBB” we sure do have a lot of people that struggle to understand a basic point:

THE POINT: Overreliance on OAD freshman is a net negative if you want to cut down the nets. The teams that are winning all the titles have experienced stars leading the way. Not that hard to understand.

I think the issue is when you say over reliance, they hear, “I don’t want any great freshman at all”. There’s no nuance to their thinking.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

I think the issue is when you say over reliance, they hear, “I don’t want any great freshman at all”. There’s no nuance to their thinking.

You’d think me constantly posting “I don’t think freshman are the devil” and “I agree you need talent” would make it pretty clear. My goodness lol

 

[UKJenning]

Freshman lead teams can still get you to the Final Four and win conference championships.

The **** Pope puts together can’t get you to the FF of the SEC tournament and can get you a 9th place conference finish.

Probably more his coaching or lack there of than anything really.

 

[FLBBNFAN]

Genuinely asking this:

Is every discussion to you only about whether or not you like Pope?
Is every posited question a treatise on whether Pope is good or bad?

We are talking about CBB as a whole. Not Pope.

@FLBBNFAN

Sorry your squirming to defend our coach. I comment on other threads without Pope all the time.There are plenty of threads on other subjects. Are you the designated hall monitor here?

Yes we are talking CBB but this is a UK board so it's pretty logical we would be discussing our past season, recruiting , performance and now portal season. Given the performance over the past year most of the threads wont be lollipops and sugar plums.

Genuinely let me ask you this. Everytime you get push back on here why is your first instinct to pick up your ball and quit or lecture everyone on how to respond on this board?

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Sorry your squirming to defend our coach. I comment on other threads without Pope all the time.There are plenty of threads on other subjects. Are you the designated hall monitor here?

Yes we are talking CBB but this is a UK board so it's pretty logical we would be discussing our past season, recruiting , performance and now portal season. Given the performance over the past year most of the threads wont be lollipops and sugar plums.

Genuinely let me ask you this. Everytime you get push back on here why is your first instinct to pick up your ball and quit or lecture everyone on how to respond on this board?

Because most people don’t stay on topic. Simple as that. If I’m debating someone and they run off to Bulverism or moving goalposts, I will call it out. And that’s what you did. Don’t take that personally. If I don’t call attention to basic rules of engagement, there really isn’t a debate to begin with. I’m trying to make sure you and I have a level playing field to debate the actual points. If the moderators would moderate this stuff, I wouldn’t be policing anything.

 

[FLBBNFAN]

Because most people don’t stay on topic. Simple as that. If I’m debating someone and they run off to Bulverism or moving goalposts, I will call it out. And that’s what you did. Don’t take that personally. If I don’t call attention to basic rules of engagement, there really isn’t a debate to begin with. I’m trying to make sure you and I have a level playing field to debate the actual points. If the moderators would moderate this stuff, I wouldn’t be policing anything.

Buddy you really over estimate your skills and you didn't call me out on anything so sorry to pop your bubble . There was nothing to moderate. I answered your question and you didn't answer mine. That's ok you and your hubris can think your levitating above everyone else on the intelligence chart.

Life will s*ck for all the excuse makers on here come next spring and analytics wont save you. Look forward to talking then .

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Buddy you really over estimate your skills and you didn't call me out on anything so sorry to pop your bubble . There was nothing to moderate. I answered your question and you didn't answer mine. That's ok you and your hubris can think your levitating above everyone else on the intelligence chart.

Life will s*ck for all the excuse makers on here come next spring and analytics wont save you. Look forward to talking then .

I think it’s pretty clear something became personal to you, so I’ll just cut it right here. Get you next time.

 

[JwUKFan11]

Who cares? It's not like the guy in charge is picking between elite freshmen and elite transfers. He has not shown the ability to get either.

 

[SenseMaker_Cats]

Buddy you really over estimate your skills and you didn't call me out on anything so sorry to pop your bubble . There was nothing to moderate. I answered your question and you didn't answer mine. That's ok you and your hubris can think your levitating above everyone else on the intelligence chart.

Life will s*ck for all the excuse makers on here come next spring and analytics wont save you. Look forward to talking then .

“Is every discussion to you only about whether or not you like Pope?”

You could have just answered yes to this and saved a lot of time.

 

[FLBBNFAN]

“Is every discussion to you only about whether or not you like Pope?”

You could have just answered yes to this and saved a lot of time.

Sorry sport but nice try. We will see over the next couple of weeks of where we are headed. I never root against the cats just like I don't root against my country so would love to be proved wrong.

 

[FLBBNFAN]

I think it’s pretty clear something became personal to you, so I’ll just cut it right here. Get you next time.

Nope not at all. Right on cue.

 

[Kantucke_rivals]

Every Kentucky men's basketball roster since freshmen became eligible in 1972 has included at least one freshman.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Every Kentucky men's basketball roster since freshmen became eligible in 1972 has included at least one freshman.

So did this past year. Last year was bad. Therefore, you can’t win with freshmen.

^ I’m obviously joking but this is the kind of logic people use on here frequently.

 

[Loucatfan30]

Neither is low end freshman with mid major transfers

 

[AJG-15]

Hello to the fourth leading scorer.

P.S. no one thinks you can’t have a freshman as your fourth or fifth leading scorer.

To be the “most knowledgeable fanbase in CBB” we sure do have a lot of people that struggle to understand a basic point:

THE POINT: Overreliance on OAD freshman is a net negative if you want to cut down the nets. The teams that are winning all the titles have experienced stars leading the way. Not that hard to understand.

You should read again what i wrote.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

You should read again what i wrote.

I just read it again. It’s unsubstantiated projection. There’s nothing to indicate freshman are NEEDED to win titles and there’s nothing indicating freshman are the most talented — unless you’re ceding that either:

A.) Talent isn’t the most important factor in winning titles since 11 years and running, no freshman are leading teams to titles.

or

B.) Titles are random. In which case, there is no point in worrying about who you get. You may laugh at the absurdity of this point, but people like Wildcat in DC have literally been using this one lol

 

[Kyhoward1]

UConn wouldn’t even be here if it wasn’t for Mullins, a freshman. Koa Peat was one of Zona’s top players all year.

To me it’s less about class and more about talent. You need talented players and coaches. That's it. With Cal we always had talented players but a mediocre coach. Now we have mediocre everything.

Strength and maturity seem to be outdoing wirey and inexperienced, regardless of the talent. Boozer was one of few examples who was young, but strong and mature for his age. Youth bit him and his team collectively in the end though.

Agree Peter

Most good to great players and, in turn, their teams have characteristics, other than talent, that lead to team success.

1. Fit - do the players on the floor have complimentary skills? Need a mix of shooters, rebounders, passers, defensive pests etc. A well rounded roster that creates problems for their opponents.

2. Basketball IQ - Larry Bird is player I think exemplifies best this trait. Great shooter yes, but maybe the most cerebral player ever. Not a leaper, yet great rebounder. Not quick, but few could guard him. Ultimate team player. High IQ players are invaluable. Can you find them in the portal or high school?

3. Experience & physical maturity - I lump these traits together as they usually go hand-in-hand. A player or team with upperclassmen is generally stronger and has been tested more often, experienced more highs and lows, learned from mistakes made allowing them to gain an upper hand on less experienced teams

4.Me or We mantra - is winning the most important goal for your player (s) OR NOT?
If not, but getting to the “league” is, I will take a pass on that player. There are thousands of high school/portal players available.. You need 10 to 12, give me those that hate to lose and will sacrifice their stats to win!

5. Basketball players or athletes? I would prefer a basketball player that is a good athlete over a great athlete that may also become a basketball player. Can you take a flyer on a player that has great physical skills (quickness, leaping ability, physical specimen)? Certainly , Nazr Muhammad was recruited out of high school by Pitino because he was big and had soft hands! Could only get down the floor occasionally but Pitino thought he might be able to develop him.

Michigan does not have the most talented team in the country IMO. I think that Dusty May is a good coach who has taken mostly castoffs from the portal, excluding Yaxel, and molded a TEAM. They seem to have the 5 characteristics I listed above. UConn will probably dismantle my argument and trounce the Wolverines. O well my $.02!

 

[20MRoster]

So I was curious on recruiting classes now that they're mostly settled -- it looks like the "disruptor" May has the 2nd ranked 2026 freshman class -- a 5 Star MCDAA, two top-50 4 stars, and then another 4-star.

interesting that the guy who built a title team exclusively through the portal is still signing elite HS talent.

Maybe he hasn't read this thread yet! Someone get him in here and show him the way!

 

[gbl97]

- A team of veterans can win
- A team led by freshmen can win
- A team led by new portal transfers can win
- A team with no roster continuity can win
- A team with a new coach who hasn't had time to "build a culture" can win

All of the above can also go home the first weekend.

Just get some ballers. I don't care about their age, their portal history... Find talented, skilled, smart ballers.