Yep that’s what the thread title says, “Be Happy We Don’t Have a Freshman”. So now, you’ve been told what to do. Be happy!!!
Freshman Led Teams Just Aren’t Winning The Titles Anymore
- Thread starter I’m The Village Idiot
- Start date
Freshmen led teams never really won
Mah out scouting the first game was eye opening. He's a confident dude that knew tonight was gonna happen the way it did. His transfers weren't the greats either, other than yaxel. Mara was a bench rider at UCLA 13 mins a game
Johnson and Burnett the same. Our fans would not be happy getting those guys in portal
Yeah you’re right. But subjective inferences can be made based on objective facts. For example, saying McKinney can be replaced (subjective) is based on the fact that he’s the fourth leading scorer on his team (objective). That is to say he isn’t asked to shoulder the volume of a primary, secondary or even tertiary star. He fills the role of a supplemental piece.
UK isn’t a statistical average kinda place.
Got there…then got turbo clocked there. Results matter.
You could make an argument Florida didn’t have more talent. That Golden has just done a better job developing guys in his system:
Florida with just 3 former top 100 players vs UK with 8 (5 if you take away Hawhtorne, JQ and Lowe)
2025-26 Florida Gators Men's Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com
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I agree with most of what you said though and have been saying it for months. Popes weaknesses are more than recruting. Far more.
I was one of those. Hated Cal at the end and believed he had to go.
Hated the Pope hire and it has proven to be validated feelings.
Both can be true.. And are.
Not far worse. But also much closer to on par than far better. Given the resources, pretty concerning.
The engine was cadeau, but man don't Michigan have a complete team. They are fun to watch.
It's a fool's errand to think you'll discover the formula for the perfect team based on a handful of games in a single-elimination tournament. People want to take this season, dominated with freshman success, and want to dismiss it based on a game here or there. If anything, this season proved that top freshmen should be the strategy.
"But Michigan beat Arizona!" Right but how many upperclassmen-laden teams did Arizona's freshmen dismantle along the way? If ONE single games goes different in 2014 (UK vs. UConn), the entire narrative is shot when a five freshmen team wins it all.
We've had VERY few teams loaded with elite freshmen throughout the years, and most of them made the Final Four!
"But Michigan beat Arizona!" Right but how many upperclassmen-laden teams did Arizona's freshmen dismantle along the way? If ONE single games goes different in 2014 (UK vs. UConn), the entire narrative is shot when a five freshmen team wins it all.
We've had VERY few teams loaded with elite freshmen throughout the years, and most of them made the Final Four!
Nobody said he was the driving engine but he impacted a final four as a freshman no you can't just throw any role player in your full of it that's what top talent does seen many untalented role players that would look ridiculous playing in a game like that even with experience you either have it or you don't . When given the choice top coaches always choose talent first because they are able to coach them up to make up for the lack of experience does Ron Mercer ring a bell 20 pts in a national championship game against Syracuse and many many more examples every where.Yes we watched the same game and I saw a five star freshman shredding Arizona's defense to the applause of the announcers Some people can't see the forest for the trees.
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Literally not close. Only thing that looks close to the same regarding literal W/L records (historically bad SEC during BCG era) and that falls apart quickly when you dig further. You’re biased on both ends of this topic. You hate Pope and you love Gillispie. No one rational would think it is even remotely close. Pope’s worst year was significantly better than Gillispie’s best year. If you want to debate this, you’re welcome to but you’re going to get wrecked.
You have three cards: record is similar, BCG went 12-4 in a historically bad SEC, he got Patterson signed as a recruit. All three of those will be dismantled faster than you can say “coaches who love co-Ed’s.”
Then why so many inferences about losing Kam, the 7th leading scorer, had so much effect. Or Lowe? How would the Cats have been without MO, the actual 4th leading scorer? See what I mean. Subjective can be skewed anyway you so desire.
While McKinney being the 4th leading scorer doesn’t mean much in your viewpoint, he keeps the 9th or 10th leading scorer on the bench. Opportunity cost is a real thing, even in basketball.
Find a post of me definitively saying what we would or would not have been without injuries. You won’t find them…I was one of the loudest people outspoken against doing that either way. We have no idea what Kentucky would have been with a healthy roster either way.
And yes, I think McKinney is good. If that would have been a quality rotation player in his place, Michigan would still be a machine.
Correct. All 26 mother effing losses in 2 yrs. You don’t get to Cherry pick the good and ignore the bad. Dude has lost 26 GAMES IN TWO YEARS. Got effing tubo’d in a S16 and R32 game and there are still rubes on here that will defend him. And why? Great coaching history? Negative. Showing signs of improvement? Nada. Because he was some bit/insignificant piece (way down the list given your previous subjective stance) of a title team that would’ve rolled without him. Bingo! Rubes.
Results matter. Make all the excuses you want. Pope was better, barely. Cool. But he’s nice. And was like 9th man on a title team. Let’s let him run the program in the ground for it. Crush away Mr know it all. Don’t forget Google and ChatGPT for your references.
You evidently don’t understand opportunity cost. Google it. Or ask AI.
You just cherry picked things right there.
Too many losses? Sure
Too many blowouts? Sure
Those things aren’t even disagreed about. The issue is full body of work. You’re one of the posters who rarely says ANYTHING good about the coach, his performance etc. I’m one of the ones who is regularly critical and regularly praiseworthy toward certain aspects. This is the whole point right? Not to cherry pick. Yet I’ve seen you absolutely dogpile someone for saying the first year was good considering the circumstances….give me a break. If you’re always banging the same gong, don’t tell me about cherry-picking. I can at least draw a line and be fair, considering ALL the bad and ALL the good. I haven’t seen much of that from you. Frankly, I’d hate to see if fellow coaches handled your coaching the way you handle Pope’s. Very skewed toward being unfair. Often very nasty about it. Mind you this is someone who, for better or worse, has achieved a level of much higher professionally than almost every high school coach, not just D3 or D2 — a high level D1 coach. He’s earned more respect from a coaching standpoint than you give him credit for and that’s really a sharp rebuke from me. Spent time with Jeff Neubauer and other coaches and i have to tell you there’s a healthy level of respect for most people in that fraternity. Your approach to Pope is kind of weird in that regard. Very biased and often hateful.
I wouldn't have a problem not landing good 5 star high school talent IF we were landing (healthy) top-tier transfer talent. I honestly think Pope is still recruiting the level he needed at BYU through the portal. I don't think he understands how to evaluate talent for a program with this level of expectations.
Mr Know it all? lol. I didn’t have to Google any of that. You seem to be a little upset. Did I insult you by saying BCG was BY FAR the worst coach at Kentucky? Coz it’s true.
So Pope is just the second worse coach we ever hired? Well that sure makes me feel much better.
Freshmen led teams have never dominated. Plus everyone loses n the ncaa tourney except one team. It'd hard to win titles, unless your uconn apparently.
We need experienced top tier talent to win. The issue is Mr. Popette can't recruit it I'm afraid.
We need experienced top tier talent to win. The issue is Mr. Popette can't recruit it I'm afraid.
Yep, Duke is in the title game minus a boneheaded move and a miracle shot
They have some balling recruiters and guys who can project a team.
Who was it that hit the miracle shot against Duke to send Uconn to the F4? And hasn’t he also been one if their leaders all year?
Wasn't Illinois led by a freshman?
Wasn’t Zona also led my Freshman?
And Michigan also has a freshman who plays a ton.
I would say highly ranked freshman are still contributing or leading teams pretty far.
Could be there’s 4 to 5 times more upperclassmen than freshmen.
Well, frankly, people are assuming that’s what you meant, because otherwise what is the point of this silly thread?
Everybody already knows that hotshot freshmen don’t mean as much in this new era full of NIL mercenaries eager to stay in CBB as long as possible. You’re not telling us anything new.
But just because they’re not quite as important as they were a few years ago doesn’t mean you don’t need them at all. Every final four team this year had freshmen playing a significant role in getting there (Keaton Wagler, Braylon Mullins, Brayden Burries, Koa Peat, Trey McKenney, etc.).
UConn wouldn’t even be here if it wasn’t for Mullins, a freshman. Koa Peat was one of Zona’s top players all year.
To me it’s less about class and more about talent. You need talented players and coaches. That's it. With Cal we always had talented players but a mediocre coach. Now we have mediocre everything.
To me it’s less about class and more about talent. You need talented players and coaches. That's it. With Cal we always had talented players but a mediocre coach. Now we have mediocre everything.
And also Brayden Burries. Arizona had two essential freshmen starters.
The only one of these FF teams that might have gotten there without freshmen is Michigan. The other three could not have it done without their frosh (Illinois, especially, would’ve likely been awful without Wagler).
The championship point guard matchup is between Georgia’s castoff and a kid from UNC who couldn’t throw it in the ocean his first two years.
The center matchup is between a guy who never averaged more than 9 points before this season and a 7’3 project who didn’t start for UCLA last season.
Player development matters.
The center matchup is between a guy who never averaged more than 9 points before this season and a 7’3 project who didn’t start for UCLA last season.
Player development matters.
I've been a fan of UK since the 70's and I can tell you that if UK had the same results as either Scheyer or Lloyd it would be brutal on this board. Fans are still talking about how Pitino blew the inbounds pass and how Hall choked against Georgetown and how Tubby left his best rebounder on the bench and how Pitino didn't play Anderson...Unless UK wins the title, the fans are furious and that fury is still burning hot after decades.
This board was sick, sick, sick of the one and done model once they started to see actual results. Before that, I had been told over and over how talent beats experience and the one and done model was the way to win. That was over after 2012.
And the only reason 2012 worked is because we had an alien at center.
You don’t change out a coach who wins an average of over 30 games a season, who makes an average of an E8 or FF, and who has had back to back National Players of the Year, I don’t care how long he goes without winning a championship!
Forget he essentially hand picks any player of his choosing, and learned the ropes from one of the greatest to ever coach the game!
Otherwise, you might be on to something
Really it is all about roster construction at this point in time. Obviously Dusty did ten times better roster construction with less money than Pope. Pro ball is similar in that roster construction is the key. Pros are limited by the draft but we are not. We had more money but made choices that were simply wrong. And perhaps Mark Pope is just not the type of coach players want to play for when given a choice ? Roster construction in year three will be the key to Pope's career.
Strength and maturity seem to be outdoing wirey and inexperienced, regardless of the talent. Boozer was one of few examples who was young, but strong and mature for his age. Youth bit him and his team collectively in the end though.
Johnson was very highly thought of, Mara was ranked 50th best transfer so they obviously knew he could be great. McKinney was a fantastic freshman pickup. Burnett was a surprise, but they obviously scout guys who fit their style very well.
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