Folks, we have been that way since the Tubby days, and I suppose would have been long before the internet, but the internet makes it easier to see. The LOD started in the Tubby days let's not forget.
We Have Turned On Each Other
- Thread starter ala_kat2
- Start date
No, Jeff is being rational about the topic of injuries. I looked at the rosters of 2023 UCLA and 2019 Kansas myself. I don’t think those injuries were analogous to Kentucky’s. They just aren’t. The UCLA team had almost their entire unit for like 30 of their 37 games and Kansas did lose a big piece in Legerald Vick but the other piece they lost was a freshman Ochai Agbaji who was playing a lot of minutes but he was being depended on nowhere near the guys we are missing. There really aren’t any examples of any teams that I know of being elite (top 2 seed I’d say) that had key injuries to this degree of severity.
Jeff’s not being rational the dudes been griping at me for posts I didn’t even make
The injury excuse is old. We have Kam back who was I believe the 4th leading scorer on Tulane. JQ was always a longshot as his injury was known and IMO he could play now but is worried about his draft status. Yes we lost Lowe who was the only point on the roster which was a stupid move by Pope.
I’m not talking about the conversation at large. I’m talking specifically about the injuries. I don’t know where Richie pulled those two examples from, but Kansas pulled off a 4 seed with less injuries than us and UCLA shouldn’t have even been mentioned. That was a brutally bad example if you go look at it.
There’s a chart that has been making the rounds that shows every teams missing production due to injuries compared to team performance for this season and it it’s pretty clear — we are performing admirably for our injury situation. There are teams who were snake bitten even more than us, but they aren’t even remotely close to us, much less contention.
Are injuries an excuse or are they an explanation? Depends on who you ask. People frame how they want to frame and that’s usually dependent on proving themselves correct more than objective analysis.
You: We crush Pope for being a terrible defensive mind, Oats is worse, way worse.
Me: Average Defensive Rank (rough estimate)
• Nate Oats: ~49
• Mark Pope: ~99
Through each others entire body of work, Oats has better Kenpom numbers. Much better. Yes, pope is better this year but Oats has had multiple top 10s. Pope hasn’t.
At least you finally acknowledged I was right about Perry (by liking my post yesterday). Love to see the personal growth
If you've been reading my posts, I'm defending Pope and I'm also saying the job he is doing, isn't good enough, but injuries play a huge role in that and it’s simply not fair to ignore the injuries and say they don't matter.
If Pope has an injury free year next year and still loses 10 games, I will want him gone before the final horn sounds.
I can't simify it anymore than this.
You are not wrong that Oats has a better defensive track record. Neither is good in that area but Oats has shown top-end defensive POTENTIAL. Pope has not — that’s part of why I need to see Pope have a top 25 defense to know he can do it. We are at 28 right now. And he’s pulled it off without JQ. I think he’s doing more than fine, considering where the year started. He now needs to prove he can win big, which to me, means an Elite Eight and can he consistently win as hunted rather than the hunter? This will be crucial to determining whether he works out.
Here, let me translate this:
Jeff is a big meanie that isn't agreeing with everytbing I say, so he's being irrational.
I’m not certain about it but I respect that it isn’t a topic I have deep knowledge about. I can submit to the opinions/analysis of others where I have deficiencies. Also applies to recruiting. I don’t watch high school games and don’t have great analysis there, I depend on my brother in law and close friends for that. Not my bag.At least you finally acknowledged I was right about Perry (by liking my post yesterday). Love to see the personal growth
Repetition of the truth can be frustrating.
Not when some of it is Pope's own fault....
I’d argue JQ is fair to blame Pope for. Other coaches wanted in on that experiment too though. Coaches that have major reputations in the college game like Bill Self did. It didn’t work out, so yeah I get the frustration there.
Lowe? No history of shoulder injuries.
Williams? No history of foot injuries.
Oweh? No history of turf toe.
Dioubate — unaware on that one.
There is no training regiment that prevents shoulder injuries. It’s just buzzards luck.
I just want to know what these people see from Pope that gives so much optimism? I get we’ve had injuries but so have other teams. Over 2 seasons he’s had a mediocre final record and made a sweet 16. I feel like there are a lot of coaches that could do that here.
Not having another point guard on the roster is what I was referring to. DA never played it at Florida and he has done his best but has spent the whole season learning a new position which has hurt the team. He's just not a point at all.
That’s actually false. DA did play it at Florida as backup and he also filled in a few games as starter when Clayton was out. And he’s been outstanding as a point guard despite the early season struggles.
I've never seen a group of people work so hard to discredit legit facts to top rope a guy that is not winning at a level they want.
The bottom line is, this team is easily much better with those 3 guys in the lineup. Take 3 key players off any team and they are going to suck, especially against a top 10 schedule.
Yup, Pope rolled the dice on JQ, I wouldn't have done that, but the projection for JQ was always that he was going to be cleared to play in late December/early January. If that held up, our front court is right there with Florida's.
Crap on Kam all you want, the kid is the best stretch 4 we have and was a starter when he got injured.
And Lowe is a massive loss, that can't be denied.
Everyone on here loved it when Pope landed these 3 guys, not one single guy on here said they were garbage. Field of 68 absolutely loved these 3 guys, now that we want Pope fired, it automatically means these three guys sucked and didn't make a difference.
Let me see if I can find it for you
Edit: here it is
Wait, does that 99 include Mark Pope's years at BYU and Utah Valley State?
If so, why would you do that? Wouldn't it make more sense to filter it down to Mark's 2 years at UK?
He ended the season at 50th in defensive efficiency last year, he’s 27th now. 38.5, so call it 39th.
Alabama finished at 28th last year and is at 67th this year. That's 47.5, call it 47th.
There are your numbers. Both teams played in the same conference. UK had the #3 SOS last year, Alabama had the #1 ranked schedule.
This year, Alabama is 2nd, we're 6th. Alabama has their entire roster, even grabbed a guy from the GL for a while, we're down 3 players.
Nice try tnough.
Who's giving "so much optimism"?
Hoping Pope fixes the issues and has and has an injury free season is optimism?
We're hoping for the best, while you guys climb down into a foxhole and hurl grenades.
There's no optimism, only hope. Why is that so hard to understand?
DA played pg at Florida. He was a backup. He literally played pg minutes in the FF and national title games.
You said “oats is way worse coaching defense than pope. Look at kenpom it’s not hard.” I gave you an example of Oats having the 3rd best defensive efficiency in a season and I asked you when Pope has done that in his career? Nate Oats had Buffalo in 2019 ranked 25th in defensive efficiency. Oats has also had another season at Alabama that he finished ranked 9th in defensive efficiency on Ken Pom.
I didn’t say I wanted Oats as our coach but if you tell any one that’s a college basketball fan that Pope is better than Oats, they are going to laugh at you. I can’t simplify it any more to you.
The "I hate Pope" crowd is going to hate that one.
Anyone who loves winning and hates losing is my brother. Anyone who loves something other than winning first is not my brother and is against me. I’m not hear to watch games. I’m here to watch our team win about 75% of the time. Every other year should be an elite 8 final 4 ever 3 years and a title every 8 or so. These 10 loss seasons are unacceptable unless sandwich in between elite 8s. That’s all there is to it. I think some uk fans are young and don’t understand our tradition. Some of our fans don’t care if we win because that’s what they re used to with football. We have to get back to winning very regularly. Much more than pope. We have broke free of that perpetual quarter century loser. That’s exactly why there is this rift in the fan base is Barney. He caused it. Really it’s been going on for a long time. Too many fans were hoodwinked by Barney and protected him like he was the center of their haram. Those fans are why we are at this point. When I was you I remember coming off probation “ah Kentucky is finished” but our fan base refused it. Now they say “kentuckys finished” again. And our fan base is crickets. Everyone is resigned to the future sucking and pope deserving a 3rd year. The man has been paid plenty so he deserves nothing. From the Barron to Cal generations of winning mindsettted Kentuckians were minted into blue blooded fans. Our media had a**holes why really scrutinized UKbb. Now they placate the enablers. That night pope was hired we should have life for Mitch unbearable. Just like tamu with stoops. We should have run that snake oil salesman out of Kentucky 15 years ago. We thought cap was bad. You question Barney and he acts like a king his ego is so big. We need a governor like I’ve said that is a uk guy and opens an investigation into Barney Eli and their corruption. Eli shouldn’t even continue on as president the guy is old and the guy has been at UK too long. Last thought. We as fans need to demand Eli’s job based on Barney’s golden parachute alone. Or how about some common sense. Stop working backwards from coaches to admin. Start with admin first and the prez first so the new guy can bring in his guy. Then the new ad could bring in his coaches. Instead maybe the new prez doesn’t care for the ad or new ad doesn’t care for our fb coach or even pope. Frigging old washed out past their retirement date whatever should never make a hire. They need to be shown the door. Cal my winning minded friends was like 20% of the problem. His stupid contract and AD ego in a pissing contest sent messages that cal didn’t have to work anymore. That was Barney’s mo. Create a Cush position for all his guys and give them one sided contracts.
See post 221.
Why wouldn't we compare the last 2 seasons? Wouldn't that be the most apples to apples comparison?
Oh wait, there's one outlier, UK's injuries. Butler and JQ are elite defenders, one played with one arm last year, the other only played a couple games this year.
I stand by what I said originally.
^ Perfect post to encapsulate what I’ve been saying. Thanks for bringing it to this thread.
I’m done with it. I just don’t care honestly. I just care about the program getting back on track. I don’t think Pope can do it, if he proves me wrong that’s great. If he doesn’t it’s time for a new coach.
I actually agree with you, I don't think Pope can do it either, but that doesn't mean I'm going to turn a blind eye to the things he has overcome and done well and it doesn’t mean I can't hope he starts winning at a high level.
So many of you guys aren't satisfied with just saying he's not the guy, you discredit his accomplishments, discredit the injuries and bury him with insults.
So, just because I HOPE he does great and wins at a UK standard, it somehow means I'm lowering expectations.
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Q: what do these two guys have in common???
A: They both demand and expect excellence from their favorite sports programs.
A: They both demand and expect excellence from their favorite sports programs.
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The data also includes Oates 4 years at Buffalo lol. Nice try in saying Pope is a much better defensive coach than Oats.
Your comment is flat out wrong, but whatever. Means more to you.
Moves the discussion his way every time he is wrong. Oh. Can’t use my numbers because it includes dopes time at BYU and UV. Well the numbers include Oats time at Buffalo. But even still what does that matter? Does teaching def at a lesser school (against lesser competition) not matter.
YOU CHANGED THE PICTUREQ: what do these two guys have in common???
A: They both demand and expect excellence from their favorite sports programs.
Why would we include apples and oranges when the last 2 years are as apples to apples as you can get?
I knowYOU CHANGED THE PICTURE
. I think this one had more the effect I wanted. The previous one was two old dudes who were likely wise.