I was just told by a GOP source...

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11thEagleFan

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That it’s happening tomorrow. My source is in the legislature. Says that unless something changes between now and then, the votes are there. There were 3 senators who were holding out, and two of them came over to the side of reason. The third was hemming and hawing but finally committed to vote to change the rules. Should hear about it tomorrow around 3 PM. Fingers crossed. Also, pretty much all the dumb **** you’ve heard about McDaniel is true. Mind blowing.

Delbert and Gunn worked hard on this, from what I’m told. The big money donors in the state were influential, as were the coaches from all 8 public universities.
 

11thEagleFan

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I’d be skeptical if I were you too. Look at my posting history. This is the first time I’ve ever had a “source” on anything, ever. I’m praying that my buddy is right. He’s still nervous that some eleventh hour ******** will go down.
 
Sep 9, 2012
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Please let this be true.

I unfortunately decided to take the plunge into the dark world of Chase McDaniels’s Facebook page and Rick Cleveland’s twitter mentions tonight after he noted that Faith Hill is pro-flag change...

Holy hell, I had no idea so many morons lived among us. I’m beginning to see how doing something as seemingly simple and common sense as this has been such a pain in the ***.
 

msstatelp1

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I’d be skeptical if I were you too. Look at my posting history. This is the first time I’ve ever had a “source” on anything, ever. I’m praying that my buddy is right. He’s still nervous that some eleventh hour ******** will go down.

Tell your buddy that I'll happily pay his bail and his fine if he will kick Chris McDaniel in the nuts on the Senate floor. I'd even be willing to start a GoFundMe to see how much we could raise.
 

11thEagleFan

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*UPDATE*

Another domino just fell for the good guys. Previously uncommitted senator from south MS is voting to change the flag.
 

horshack.sixpack

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His video is great. Some of the comments on the page let you know why we are in this situation. People complaining about minorities having a voice and insisting that the war was over state's rights. Correct, the state's right to own slaves. It really makes you wonder how people literally deny the truth. It can only be that they simply don't want to find it...
 

Cousin Jeffrey

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His video is great. Some of the comments on the page let you know why we are in this situation. People complaining about minorities having a voice and insisting that the war was over state's rights. Correct, the state's right to own slaves. It really makes you wonder how people literally deny the truth. It can only be that they simply don't want to find it...
When it came to slavery, the Confederacy actually did NOT allow “state’s rights”. All states were required to allow slavery and could not restrict its citizens from having slaves.

The Confederate Constitution stated in Article I, Section 9 (4):
“No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.”

Also, in Article IV, Section 2 (1):
“The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.”

And Article IV, Section 3 (3):
“The Confederate States may acquire new territory...In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress...”

Source: https://www.libs.uga.edu/hargrett/selections/confed/trans.html
 

ronpolk

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May 6, 2009
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His video is great. Some of the comments on the page let you know why we are in this situation. People complaining about minorities having a voice and insisting that the war was over state's rights. Correct, the state's right to own slaves. It really makes you wonder how people literally deny the truth. It can only be that they simply don't want to find it...

Yeah, I think it takes about 3 sentences in Mississippi’s article of secession before you get the mention of slavery.
 

woozman

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Not sure which Senator just made the switch but Senator Jeremy England posted an emotional video on his Facebook page. Long but worth a watch. Respect to you Senator England. https://www.facebook.com/JeremyEnglandSenate/videos/1205885876421021/

My guess would be Brice Wiggins from Pascagoula/Gautier (who is my Senator). I think he was one of the non-committal ones. Then Ingalls shipyard and Chevron both came out against the flag, which are both huge employers. Then also rumors that the Navy might cancel some contracts with Ingalls.
 
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blacklistedbully

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His video is great. Some of the comments on the page let you know why we are in this situation. People complaining about minorities having a voice and insisting that the war was over state's rights. Correct, the state's right to own slaves. It really makes you wonder how people literally deny the truth. It can only be that they simply don't want to find it...
You still beating this dead horse? For Pete's sake, there is AMPLE evidence it was about more than just slavery. Slavery was absolutely the overriding factor, but to deny state's rights was also one of the significant straws that broke the camel's back is ridiculous. Can you not understand that people can believe slavery was an evil institution and that the non-admittance of additional slave states was the driving factor for secession, yet also factually state that state's rights & the balance-of-power in the senate were also big factors?

Sure, for the slave-holders the biggest desire for both the continued addition of 1 slave state for every 1 free state, and ultimately for secession was to prevent having slavery outlawed. But for those who did not, and never had hope of owning a slave, or didn't even want one, the issue of state's rights was a HUGE factor. There is proof of this in the battles between northern & southern politicians decades prior to the Civil War.

Rather than post a TLDR novel, let me suggest you simply look up:
Tariff of 1828
Tariff of 1832
Ordinance of Nullification
The United States Force Bill
The Nashville Convention
The Kansas-Nebraska Act
- Tensions had been high since the 1820's at least due to tariffs/import taxes that blistered the South & helped the North. And the taxes were being used on projects in the North. This act was the one that put the nail in the coffin. Was not about tariffs, but whether "popular sovereignty" would be continued in our Westward expansion. The overwhelming issue determined by the popular sovereignty doctrine was whether those territory's settlers would be allowed to choose by popular vote if they would allow slavery or not. Contentious debate between those Northern delegates who wanted the Federal Gov't to decide (and to decide no-slavery), and Democrats, mostly Southern, who wanted to retain popular sovereignty would throw gas on the fire.

It passed the Senate easily. The floor debate in the House was handled by Alexander Stephens, of Georgia, who argued that the issue was whether republican principles, "that the citizens of every distinct community or State should have the right to govern themselves in their domestic matters as they please," would be honored. The vote in favor was 113 - 110 due to Northern Democrats joining with Southern Democrats to pass it.

The Whig Party of the North pretty much collapsed over this, leading to the formation of the Republican Party whose platform more vigorously opposed either just further expansion of slavery, or both that and the abolition of it in the existing slave states. Refusing to accept the passage of the KN Act, they took the fight to the Northern public in particular, not only to speak out against slavery, but to also increase fear in the North that the South might gain insurmountable power over the government. It worked. Of course Kansas became a nasty battleground between free-soilers and pro-slavery advocates that resulted in the violence that came to be known as Bleeding Kansas, Bloody Kansas or The Border War.

Elections were held, with pro-slavery advocates winning, but never validated as it was claimed 95% of the pro-slavery votes were fraudulent (probably were). A later election was won by free-soilers, with Kansas admitted to the Union on a vote of the Senate after Southern delegates resigned to join their secessionist states.

So, yes...the overriding reason for the Civil War and the secession that preceded it was slavery, both due to plantation owners with political power wanting to protect their ability to own slaves and maybe expand into new states, and to also not lose balance-of-power in the Senate. For the greater than 95% of white southerners who did not own any slaves, they were primarily motivated by what would happen to them if 4 million slaves were suddenly freed and given the same rights. They were scared about what happened with John Brown, & in the Nat Turner rebellion where 56 escaped slaves killed over 55 people before they were captured. If 56 with no rights and no ability to buy weapons could kill over 55, how many could thousands or even millions kill? This thought was of course preached to them by plantation owners and their politicians/allies. In addition there was an element of racism that made them also chafe at the thought of blacks being made their equals. They were also convinced cities, services, etc. would fall apart with sudden abolition resulting in chaos.

So sure, even the 95% who didn't own slaves could be argued to have fought over slavery, but not in the sense they wanted to own them, but that their safety/lives depended on the slave-owners maintaining control and order. It is also true that for them state's rights had long been an issue that affected them via the aforementioned unfair tariffs/taxes imposed on them by the North.
 
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QuaoarsKing

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I sure am I glad we had you to come around 120 years later and tell us that Mississippi was wrong when it explicitly said slavery was the only reason it seceded.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp
You can read the rest of it here. Spoiler - the rest is about slavery too.
 

blacklistedbully

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I will add that had it not been for Eli-Whitney's invention of the Cotton Gin, the South would not have been nearly as dependent on slave labor, slave ownership would have continued to decline as it had been, and there would have been no war over slavery. There would not have been the explosion of slaves in the South, the plantation owners would not have been nearly so profitable, and this would most likely have resulted in more white farmers owning land they worked themselves .

It is also hard to imagine the non-slave owning population caring nearly enough about slavery to secede from the union, much less risk their lives fighting a war over it.
 

JungRebel

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I'm sure white supremacists would've gladly ceded their position of power over black people in the name of sound economic principles. That's why we immediately integrated our society after the Civil War and never tanked our economic present and future by building the money pit known as "separate but equal."
 
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travis.sixpack

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If you’re trying to convince me that the Civil War *was* fought wholly over slavery, you’re doing a great job.
 

Hump4Hoops

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Great job disproving your own thesis.

The reasons the south seceded, according to you:

1. Slavery
2. Wanting to own slaves in new states
3. Not wanting slaves to be freed.
 

GhostOfJackie

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Apr 20, 2009
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Chris McDaniel's Facebook page is definitely an eye opener.

No kidding. I said this in the past, but I’ve been watching his daily update videos just to see what we’re up against. It’s absolutely mind boggling to see what some of the people say. And I guess I didn’t realize there were so many of them. I thought I surrounded myself with what you would consider “normal Mississippians” but I clearly do not.

There is a whole gaggle of people in our state that just don’t have a clue. Is gaggle the right word?
 

blacklistedbully

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I sure am I glad we had you to come around 120 years later and tell us that Mississippi was wrong when it explicitly said slavery was the only reason it seceded.



https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp
You can read the rest of it here. Spoiler - the rest is about slavery too.
I didn't say I was posting about just Mississippi. I was posting about the entire South, and gave FACTS about the progression. Nothing in your reply counters any of the facts I posted.

Not at all surprised.
 

blacklistedbully

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I'm sure white supremacists would've gladly ceded their position of power over black people in the name of sound economic principles. That's why we immediately integrated our society after the Civil War and never tanked our economic present and future by building the money pit known as "separate but equal."
You need to do a deeper dive. Separate but equal was wrong, and a tool used by Jim Crow to discriminate. But would it surprise you to learn freed slaves wanted separate but equal?
 

blacklistedbully

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I have no words
Thank God! Facts have a way of making blowhards either shut up or post emotional and/or straw man arguments not based in facts or reputing the points made. I'm gonna guess you didn't bother to actually do the research yourself. That would be too much work and might lead to to realize you may have it a little twisted.
 

blacklistedbully

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If you’re trying to convince me that the Civil War *was* fought wholly over slavery, you’re doing a great job.
Whatever, dude. Easy to go on believing the standard line you've been told. Takes a little effort and intelligence to realize it's not all black & white. There is almost always some gray.

Frankly, any of you who could be somehow offended by the points I posted above just don't appear to think at a very high level. Nothing I posted should cause anyone heartburn. It's certainly not apologetic or even making excuses for slavery. It didn't discount or minimize the effect of slavery being the central cause of the war.

It simply challenges this ridiculous claim that it was the ONLY reason for the war and for so many non-slave holders fighting and dying for the Confederacy.

If I had claimed slavery was secondary at best next to state's rights, you'd have a point. But I didn't, and for any of you suggesting that is what I am doing, you're just being willfully ignorant, or too caught up in your "outrage" to see the truth.
 

blacklistedbully

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The reasons the south seceded, according to you:

1. Slavery
2. Wanting to own slaves in new states
3. Not wanting slaves to be freed.

Didn't expect you to be capable of grasping the nuances. Because I'm intellectually honest, I of course listed slavery as the main reason. Again, my point was IT WAS NOT THE ONLY REASON the North & South ended up in a Civil War.

If you actually read all the states secession documents, you would see references beyond just ensuring slavery. Every one obviously listed slavery as the main point...the actual secession came on the heals of the South losing power in the senate due to Kansas going in as free, and Nebraska undoubtedly going that way, and Southern Democrats and plantation owners knowing this would soon result in the abolition of slavery, especially when Lincoln won the election. But there were also mentions of "balance-of-power", "state's rights for self-government", usurping of power by the federal gov over state gov (this absolutely did happen, too), and abuses they felt the North forced on the South in the decades prior.

Nothing the North did justifies or excuses slavery. That's not a claim I have made. But as a point of fact, it is clear for anyone to see who is willing to actually read about what happened from the 1820's on in particular, that the South was getting bent over by the North regarding tariffs & taxes that sent money from the South to the North. The South was getting pissed well before the abolitionists became a threat, and decades before the Republican Party was even formed.

Anybody who says slavery was the overriding cause of the war is correct. Anybody who says it was the only thing that put our country on the path to war is just ignorant on the subject and probably too lazy to do their on in-depth research.
 

JungRebel

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No because I've read probably a lot of the same history as you, and black opinion was mixed on the subject. There's a big difference in what motivated Kennard and Meredith. None of that makes a bit of difference to the fairytale argument that slavery would have died a natural death, and bringing in the fantasy that the cotton gin might have never been invented or been invented later is meaningless. Why did slavery end in the West Indies after the cotton gin's invention? It wasnt because Britian and France couldn't get their hands on one.
 
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mcdawg22

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Sep 18, 2004
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No kidding. I said this in the past, but I’ve been watching his daily update videos just to see what we’re up against. It’s absolutely mind boggling to see what some of the people say. And I guess I didn’t realize there were so many of them. I thought I surrounded myself with what you would consider “normal Mississippians” but I clearly do not.

There is a whole gaggle of people in our state that just don’t have a clue. Is gaggle the right word?
I don’t want to derail this, but maybe that’s why a lot of people can’t understand the protest and the feelings of angst. We just assume everyone person, cop, retail employee is a decent person like us so it doesn’t make sense why people of color are so up in arms. On the flip side those terrible people make the biggest impression on poc in their daily life so they may forget that the majority of Caucasian people are good, decent, human beings. The riots suck and are ********. Tearing down statues violently is not the way to go. But these protest and conversations have opened up a tough dialogue between the two sides and the good guys on one side and the good guys on the other side can see eye to eye and slough off the **** that needs to be left behind and slowly dies with every generation.
 

dog12

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Sep 15, 2016
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It appears that there is much discussion in this thread about why the Civil War was fought.

Does that topic have a significant bearing over whether we change the state flag today?

If I remember correctly, the Civil War was fought 1861-1865.

It is now 2020.

In my opinion, the reasons why the Civil War was fought has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether we should change the state flag TODAY.


We can debate the Civil War after the flag is changed.
 

QuaoarsKing

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I didn't say I was posting about just Mississippi. I was posting about the entire South, and gave FACTS about the progression. Nothing in your reply counters any of the facts I posted.

Not at all surprised.

The other states made similar declarations. Secession was 100% about slavery, as they feared newly elected President Lincoln would make it illegal. Had Douglas won, they would not have seceded, even though the tensions you describe would have still existed.
 
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