Rebels still holding on to Confederacy

[11thEagleFan]

This is a reasonable response. To be fair, I only looked on the first page and didn’t take note as to whether it was the same posters spamming. My personal opinion (that you didn’t ask for) is that the flag and the name “Rebels” need to go. Ole Miss should stay.

 

[mstateglfr]

A few schools teach history. A lot of schools teach revisionist history. This is why we have a bunch of uneducated idiots in the streets tearing **** up.

Every statue of every human ever erected is put there to commemorate something, but it doesn't mean they were perfect or were above reproach (outside of Jesus). They were human after all. It's possible that Andrew Jackson did a tremendous amount of good for this country, while also doing some bad stuff. There's nuance in everything. Today's cancel culture isn't interested in nuance.

Perhaps there are a bunch of idiots running around due to revisionist history being taught. I met an endless stream of them while in school at MSU. My goodness the revisionist history they used to tell me- it was hilarious. But I would listen patiently because it was different from what I was taught so I found it valuable to learn, if for no other reason than it was eye opening to see so many taught revised history.

Many statues commemorate something, you are correct. It ends up a lot of people think that some things shouldnt be commemorated. And it ends up that perhaps some actions and events shouldnt be commemorated.
We should probably just have less idolization overall. Maybe that would be best. Have a higher standard. Not everyone's granpappy who fought in the War of Northern Aggression should be idolized.
Furthermore, some statues were absolutely created in an attempt to continue the status quo(whites in charge). Not all were done with that intent, but come on now- dont argue none were,

I don't see Mississippi celebrating "one particular 4 year stretch of history." But then again, I'm not looking for **** that isn't there.

If you never look, then you will never see.

The state of Mississippi is entrenched in Confederate history and culture. The ties between Mississippi and slavery continue because the state hasnt been able to move on, or rather it has chosen not to move on. Instead, it tries to straddle honoring the past(which is a celebration of that 4 year stretch of history) with being open and accepting. That balance act has clearly failed.
It ends up that when you create laws to oppress a group of people for decades and also terrorize them without repercussion, you are going to have a tough time changing how you are seen. This is especially true when entertainment(books and film) continue to bring up the horrors of your past.
Removing idolized statues of racists and oppressors wont fix everything, but its a damn good start.

See...this is your problem. You talk about monuments and memorials as "Mississippi celebrating one particular 4 year stretch of history." It's offensive and dishonest. Nobody is celebrating anything. These things happened 160 years ago, and monuments were built by those who lost loved ones. It's not a celebration, and it's not all of Mississippi condoning what happened back then.

You need to cut the man bun and grow up.

Lets lets set aside any memorials that were constructed by family who lost loved ones because I could see those being done at the time with at least some intent to 'honor' relatives. How do you explain away all the statues that went up many decades after the war ended and heavily around the time when whites were slowly losing their grip on outright oppression of blacks?

On a related note, how do you justify a school named after a Civil War general or the President of the Confederacy where over 90% of students in the district are black? Take Jefferson Davis Elementary in Greenwood for example- kids attend a school that honors a man who was so against the freedom of people due to the skin color of those students, that he was was the president of the Confederacy.
How the 17 can that be justified?

 

[mstateglfr]

I could go on, but the BLM movement is being used as cover by Marxists trying to destroy history and the system to implement their Marxist system. I'm not speculating that, they've said it.

Since I know nothing about the connection between BLM and Marxism, can you explain? How will this eventually lead to the implementation of a Marxist system? Like- what does the removal of statues and names from buildings have to do with the United States converting to a Marxist system?

I dont understand the jump between the removal of statues and the conversion of our economy to Communism.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

I'm going to disagree with your first paragraph here because ironically you're painting with broad strokes and not going into nuance...

I mentioned this earlier in the thread:

Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis.

a.k.a....

Traditional historical viewpoints + Historical revisionism = Historical synthesis.

And there are instances when historical revisionism becomes predominant over traditional viewpoints. Notably US Reconstruction history.

There is sometimes confusion between historical revisionism which is okay and historical negationism-- or denialism-- which is not okay.

 

[EngDawg]

You have to be discerning in how you do it and what you do. The current statue destruction is not about erasing the confederacy. If it was, the overwhelming majority would have no problem moving confederate emblems, even then you have to be careful and discerning. The Lincoln emancipation monument they want to tear down was paid for in part by freed slaves at the time. Federick Douglas gave a moving speech at its unveiling. In Vicksburg, there is a confederate avenue and union avenue to memorialize the battle lines. Don't rename them. The monuments in the park follow the battle lines and represent both sides and all who fought there. US Grant freed his inherited slave and savagely hunted the KKK. Why tear his down? I could go on, but the BLM movement is being used as cover by Marxists trying to destroy history and the system to implement their Marxist system. I'm not speculating that, they've said it. I abhor the random confederate monuments at court houses, that's glorifying the confederacy, but at battlefields, Grant, Cervantes (who was a slave himself for 5 years), etc. those are clearly by Marxists bent on tearing down the system. So, as usual, there is some right on both sides and both sides need to be discerning. If they could come together on the common ground rather than yelling past each other, they could stamp out the crazy "Antifa" Marxists and BLM movement could stop themselves from being political pawns.

This is the correct answer. Unfortunately the discourse is either “Statue Bad!” Or “Muh Heritage!”

 

[thatsbaseball]

For all of the bashing of Ole Miss we've done on this board (most of it rightfully so) on this subject, for the life of me I'm not now sure our (MSU's) relationship with with the black community at large and more particularly our own black athletes is that much better than theirs. Am I way off base here ?

 

[CreekFishin]

I agree with this. Fanbases pretty similar. At times our university leadership has been more progressive than OM.

 

[FQDawg]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...-general-ulysses-s-grant-s-statue/ar-BB15KtqI

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/10/metro/statue-christopher-columbus-vandalized-north-end/

https://www.wbur.org/artery/2020/06/03/16-statues-memorials-damaged

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/na...0200603-xrc3akhpn5bbvehumr7v2z2com-story.html

And there is a difference between peaceful protest and the out of control rioters. Protests are welcome.

So, to review, you've posted some articles about some statues coming down... which, ok. No one disagrees that it's happening. And as I've said before, I'm not particularly bothered by statues coming down or being vandalized. I've literally never seen a statue of Christopher Columbus. I still know who he is. If every statue of him disappeared tomorrow, people would still be able to learn about him.

You then posted an article about people dying during/after the George Floyd protests, which were about police brutality. And if you read the article, several of the people were either killed by police or by business owners. A couple appear to be accidents. They are all tragedies and should be investigated. But none of them seem to be because of people who want statues to come down.

Your point was "These thugs are destroying every statue and are violent anarchists that have killed people." But nowhere in any of the articles you've posted does it connect people who want to take down statues with 'violent anarchists that have killed people.'

Also, many of the "out of control rioters" have actually found to have been connected to white nationalist groups who are pretending to be "antifa" in order to cause chaos and destruction: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/securi...-protest-disinformation-bot-behavior-n1221456

In other places, it's young, misguided people looking to take advantage of the unrest to loot stores and businesses: https://abc7news.com/protesters-antifa-white-supremacists-george-floyd-protests/6222958/

But let's ignore all that for a minute and say you're right and that there are roving gangs of violent anarchists who want to kill people... that still doesn't mean all these statues should stay up.

 

[Sapsdawg]

The founders of BLM are "trained marxists", and it's in quotes because that's a quote from them. Go look at their speeches and writing. Look at every Marxist revolution and how it started. Destroy the history, destroy the art, make the system evil to justify it's destruction, then Marxism fills the gap. Get rid of or infiltrate law enforcement, burn books, and divide people by whatever lines you can, race, wealth, education, etc. Read some authors from Venezuela and how quickly they were taken over there. It started with destroying all statues and monuments and distorting history. Venezuela was once one of the most successful economies in the Americas. Now their money is literally worthless.

I'm not saying it will be successful, I'm saying it's a coordinated effort and attempt to take down the system. I think it will fail miserably, doesn't mean they aren't trying. The well-meaning, truly racial equality protesters on both sides have seen the manipulation and spoken publicly about how the attempt to use the movement as a pawn. I wish true libertarian/conservative people would find these people and march together to stamp out both the Marxists and racists. Strong coalition it would make.

What's your explanation for indiscriminately toppling, defacing, destroying statutes of everyone of note in American history. Hell, even Stevie Ray Vaughan, that well known KKK member.

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

At times. Bless their little liberal bleeding hearts.

Hopefully, OM can withstand the assault on their heritage and tradition. Somebody in the state has got to hold out or the memory of the lost cause could be lost forever.

 

[mstateglfr]

So, to review, you've posted some articles about some statues coming down... which, ok. No one disagrees that it's happening. And as I've said before, I'm not particularly bothered by statues coming down or being vandalized. I've literally never seen a statue of Christopher Columbus. I still know who he is. If every statue of him disappeared tomorrow, people would still be able to learn about him.

You then posted an article about people dying during/after the George Floyd protests, which were about police brutality. And if you read the article, several of the people were either killed by police or by business owners. A couple appear to be accidents. They are all tragedies and should be investigated. But none of them seem to be because of people who want statues to come down.

Your point was "These thugs are destroying every statue and are violent anarchists that have killed people." But nowhere in any of the articles you've posted does it connect people who want to take down statues with 'violent anarchists that have killed people.'

Also, many of the "out of control rioters" have actually found to have been connected to white nationalist groups who are pretending to be "antifa" in order to cause chaos and destruction: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/securi...-protest-disinformation-bot-behavior-n1221456

In other places, it's young, misguided people looking to take advantage of the unrest to loot stores and businesses: https://abc7news.com/protesters-antifa-white-supremacists-george-floyd-protests/6222958/

But let's ignore all that for a minute and say you're right and that there are roving gangs of violent anarchists who want to kill people... that still doesn't mean all these statues should stay up.

Its worth quoting this in full.
Well said, all the way thru.

You stuck to the topic and addressed each point as to how it connects(doesn't, actually) to the topic.

More of these posts are needed.

 

[fishwater99]

Oh and...Guess what type of building this resides on


View attachment 16562

Is that in a Church or on the outside? Big Difference.

 

[mstateglfr]

The founders of BLM are "trained marxists", and it's in quotes because that's a quote from them. Go look at their speeches and writing. Look at every Marxist revolution and how it started. Destroy the history, destroy the art, make the system evil to justify it's destruction, then Marxism fills the gap. Get rid of or infiltrate law enforcement, burn books, and divide people by whatever lines you can, race, wealth, education, etc. Read some authors from Venezuela and how quickly they were taken over there. It started with destroying all statues and monuments and distorting history. Venezuela was once one of the most successful economies in the Americas. Now their money is literally worthless.

I'm not saying it will be successful, I'm saying it's a coordinated effort and attempt to take down the system. I think it will fail miserably, doesn't mean they aren't trying. The well-meaning, truly racial equality protesters on both sides have seen the manipulation and spoken publicly about how the attempt to use the movement as a pawn. I wish true libertarian/conservative people would find these people and march together to stamp out both the Marxists and racists. Strong coalition it would make.

What's your explanation for indiscriminately toppling, defacing, destroying statutes of everyone of note in American history. Hell, even Stevie Ray Vaughan, that well known KKK member.

First, I appreciate the time you spend typing this up.
I'm aware of Marxism as a theory and its applications thru history, but apparently I need to read further in depth as you connected a few things that I haven't connected before.

I will say that when it comes to the status of statues, road and school names, etc- history isn't being destroyed in the sense that it will be forgotten. Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis won't be forgotten if there arent predominantly black enrollment elementsry schools named after them. They won't be forgotten if there arent grand statues showing them as larger than life in town squares.

As for making the system evil- dude, people pushing for equal treatment by pointing out that the current system has flaws/is broken/needs to be changed isnt necessarily a push towards Marxism. Sure, it could be, but it isnt inherently a push towards Marxism. It could just be people pushing back against mistreatment.
Women's Sufferage, Civil Rights Movement, gender eauality, etc etc etc- we have a long history of mistreatment of certain groups and each time it is improved doesnt mean we have inched closer to Marxism.


As for Stevie Ray Vaugn, that was 3 years ago and it was tagged by a local street gang. No story there- find a different monument to cite.

 

[oxfordrebel22]

This is a reasonable response. To be fair, I only looked on the first page and didn’t take note as to whether it was the same posters spamming. My personal opinion (that you didn’t ask for) is that the flag and the name “Rebels” need to go. Ole Miss should stay.

I appreciate the fair response. It’s rare between the fan bases, but thankfully not uncommon here. I’ve been guilty of the same before. It’s very easy to allow a few to represent many. Because those few are the most vocal and demonstrative.

I will fully admit I’m very biased, and don’t want to lose Rebels or Ole Miss, but am aware that both are possible. And if that happens, I’ll still support the university, because my support has never been tied to monikers any more than it was tied to a stuffed man/animal on the sideline.

I agree with you on the flag, 100%. And to me, it’s not really debatable. The bad, far far outweighs the good. It’s time to change it. It’s beyond time to change it. It’s holding both of our beloved schools and athletic departments back. And it’s tying them up in political battles that they don’t deserve to be in. Our state leadership needs to lead.

 

[Sapsdawg]

Nice of you to ignore most of what i said. I abhor the confederate glorification, as noted earlier. No one is justifying the removal of the "honor" monuments. I specifically said the founders of BLM are trained marxism to usher it in by their own admission. You purposefully i suspect left out the US Grant monument reference, Cervantes, there was also the 54th Massachusetts, they want to tear down the emancipation monument paid for by freed slaves and reverently spoken of by Frederick Douglas.

Nice try to spin the words to discount the marxists who have openly said they are using BLM to attempt this. There are legitimate real peaceful racial equality protesters, I'd say the majority, but they aren't the main ones causing trouble. I never once mentioned Robert E Lee or Jefferson Davis, you did. I could not care less is neither have anything named after them ever or any statues whatsoever.

 

[mstateglfr]

Nice of you to ignore most of what i said. I abhor the confederate glorification, as noted earlier. No one is justifying the removal of the "honor" monuments. I specifically said the founders of BLM are trained marxism to usher it in by their own admission. You purposefully i suspect left out the US Grant monument reference, Cervantes, there was also the 54th Massachusetts, they want to tear down the emancipation monument paid for by freed slaves and reverently spoken of by Frederick Douglas.

Nice try to spin the words to discount the marxists who have openly said they are using BLM to attempt this. There are legitimate real peaceful racial equality protesters, I'd say the majority, but they aren't the main ones causing trouble. I never once mentioned Robert E Lee or Jefferson Davis, you did. I could not care less is neither have anything named after them ever or any statues whatsoever.

Woah, that escalated quickly. I didnt intentionally ignore most of what you said. I also never thought you side with confederate glorification.

I also didnt omit the Grant monument, Cervantes, or the 54th MA. I didnt even realize we were talking about those because I dont remember seeing them discussed.

Please understand that I am not disagreeing with you. I am not defending BLM. I was simply curious to know more about what you referenced so I asked.

As for the Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis references I made, I did that because you mentioned the path to Marxism is filled with destroying history. My point was that if we get rid of some history(like school names, statues, etc) of those deemed unworthy of such memorialization, it isnt necessarily a bad thing. Im saying not all destruction of history has Marxism as a motivation. That was all.

 

[Sapsdawg]

My apologies then, but I thought it was clear in my initial post that the history I was talking about were US Grant, Cervantes, the emancipation monmument, and battlefield parks. The Marxist reference, again, comes from the founders of BLM themselves, not the rank and file mind you. Further, the antifa coordinators say the same thing. I'm not speculating, just google marxism BLM founder and watch her in her own words. Finally, many writers from Venezuela have documented how their revolution started in precisely the same way, the indiscriminate destruction of history and agencies of government to overwhelm the system. They have written dire warnings here recently, that's all.

It seemed like you were trying to make me out to be a rebel sympathizer when I abhor the glorification of the confederacy and have been a flag change advocate since the 80's really. I am a libertarian/conservative and don't understand why more minorities are not. They have suffered greatly at the hands of government and yet they generally vote more and more government. Derrick Chauvin is a democrat. His chief is a democrat. His union steward is a democrat. His mayor is a democrat. His governor is a democrat. Yeah, let's vote democrat. I generally have no one to vote for in Presidential elections, but I try.

 

[johnson86-1]

Actually they did, both north and south. Almost all of the monuments both in towns and on battlefields nationwide were erected during that time. The reason was the living vets were getting old and wanted to leave something behind to commemorate what was for all of them the defining experience of their lives. They spearheaded most of it. Dig into the history and historiography of Civil War monumentation some time.

Also a good many monuments went up north and south around the 50 year anniversary of the civil war.

https://www.aier.org/article/what-the-data-say-about-civil-war-monuments/

 

[Misfit]

We have to be the only former country in the world that still celebrates the defeat that drove our country out of existence 155 years later.

 

[blacklistedbully]

I ventured over to Nafoom just to see what their thoughts are. The State and USM message boards I’ve seen are overwhelmingly in favor of changing the flag. My takeaway from the Rebel board was “But muh traditions!” Also, somehow State fans are the racist ones. It was mind blowing.

Lol. Those morons are still claiming they gave, "exemplary cooperation" to the NCAA & got screwed. Talk about willfully ignorant.

 

[Misfit]

You have never noticed the statues of Confederate soldiers in front of county courthouses all over the state, or the battle flag in the upper left corner of our state flag, or the fact that Confederate Memorial Day, Jefferson Davis's birthday and Robert E. Lee's birthday are all official state holidays. When you want to not face the facts, you can be the most oblivious person I have ever encountered.

 

[MarylandBulldog]

The reason we teach history in schools is because statues and monuments are poor excuses for history. They reflect the idolatry of their time and almost always represent a skewed view of history and the person being honored.

As a current grad student at State getting my PhD in American history, I couldn't agree more. The only time I refer to statues or monuments of any kind when teaching my undergrad classes is when I discuss examples of statues that were erected with the explicit attempt to perpetuate a revised version of events, the most common example being Confederate statues erected post-1877 that sought to advance Lost Cause rhetoric and white racial supremacy.