Jon and Dany

[engie]

It was. No question. I'd like to know a better episode than battle of the bastards and this past Episode from seasons 1-5. Hardhome was the gold standard from those first 5 seasons. There have been 4 episodes match Hardhome in ratings in seasons 6 & 7 since they got past Martin's books. I don't see where the writers are lost without Martin talk comes from. The show has improved.

I disagree. It's become a much dumber show. The ratings can only signify that the majority of people love mindless spectacle.

BotB was ridiculous in and of itself. The whole Vale deal was a huge nonsensical cop out without explanation. How did they get thru a Bolton-fortified Moat Cailin? WITHOUT a single raven or scout making it back to them from anywhere along the thousand miles of Kingsroad to warn Ramsey it was coming? The show actually mentions several times in early seasons how the moat is practically impenetrable from the south. We are to believe that the Boltons -- while committing treason against the Lannisters with Sansa -- left that very basis of their survival undefended for a Vale army to march thru?

Everything from mid season 5 on is going to play out much differently in the books.

ETA: And speaking of Hardhome -- how about them borrowing Stannis' fleet from Eastwatch to get to Hardhome, presumably sail back to Eastwatch, then after watching the massacre that had just happened, trudge their asses back to Castle Black on the wrong side of the wall with Jon knowing it's perfectly likely that Thorne doesn't let them through -- and being wide open to a WW attack? Think maybe if you apply logic there, that people would have been in a hurry to sail on around to the right side of that wall. More ignorant writing in order to set up the spectacle of Thorne letting them in.

 

[tatedog]

They don't have to trudge -- but they need to make it not be nonsensical. D&D are losing themselves here -- and they are losing my trust in their storytelling process. It's minor stuff to "fix" this.

EX: Jon and Dany talk about meaning of Bran's visions while on dragonstone in ep 4/5. Jon gets a raven from Ed when Bran crosses the wall in Ep1/2 with some of what he said to him in order to develop character "trust" in these visions from a distance.
Bran sees the coming danger beyond the wall Ep5/early6.
Bran sends raven to Dany and uses it to speak to her. "Eastwatch, eastwatch". Something that happened frequently with single words from the birds in the books and powerful in it's own right.
Jon sends a Raven that they would have logically taken with them from beyond the wall when they go under siege. Raven to Eastwatch, same story happens less nonsensically. And for goodness sake, no non-Targaryens actually get on a dragon. Drogon blazes them a path out that Jon ended up taking, just as nonsensically, with Benjen's horse.

Even then, Jon being involved in that deal from his position of power was ridiculous. Going to Dragonstone made sense, but I'm having trouble with them pretending Cersei is the only one left that matters. There's still a huge Reach army, thousands in Dorne, the Stormlands, etc. This Dragonpit meeting should see people from all of the contiguous regions sending everything they have to the neck.

Coming soon to SPS magazine: Engie teaches George R.R. Martin about fantasy fiction.

 

[engie]

Coming soon to SPS magazine: Engie teaches George R.R. Martin about fantasy fiction.

George is a master. D&D are the problem....

I think in the test of time, we are going to look back at this series feeling like they need to redo the whole thing -- giving the current budget to the basically flawless story of the first half -- and George's endgame story to the spectacle of the second half...

To be fair, at the current pace, George is about 8 years away from finishing the story. D&D have to write the seasons which ~= one book in about 10 months. Of course they wouldn't have the mastery of material that was there previously. George himself wouldn't either on this schedule. But they could definitely use some cleaning up on the logistics IMO. Outkick the Show was pretty good on this topic today.

 

[MSUDawgFan86]

I disagree. It's become a much dumber show. The ratings can only signify that the majority of people love mindless spectacle.

BotB was ridiculous in and of itself. The whole Vale deal was a huge nonsensical cop out without explanation. How did they get thru a Bolton-fortified Moat Cailin? WITHOUT a single raven or scout making it back to them from anywhere along the thousand miles of Kingsroad to warn Ramsey it was coming? The show actually mentions several times in early seasons how the moat is practically impenetrable from the south. We are to believe that the Boltons -- while committing treason against the Lannisters with Sansa -- left that very basis of their survival undefended for a Vale army to march thru?

Everything from mid season 5 on is going to play out much differently in the books.

ETA: And speaking of Hardhome -- how about them borrowing Stannis' fleet from Eastwatch to get to Hardhome, presumably sail back to Eastwatch, then after watching the massacre that had just happened, trudge their asses back to Castle Black on the wrong side of the wall with Jon knowing it's perfectly likely that Thorne doesn't let them through -- and being wide open to a WW attack? Think maybe if you apply logic there, that people would have been in a hurry to sail on around to the right side of that wall. More ignorant writing in order to set up the spectacle of Thorne letting them in.

I respect your opinion but disagree. What was so enthralling and intelligent about season 4 and 5? It was pretty much a snooze fest and wasn't very good. The unnecessary deaths of too many good characters just to be different from other books and shows are some of the blame. The other great characters left weren't at a point in their story line to be entertaining. The Dorne story line was pretty much an abortion and no one cares. Oberyn fighting the mountain was pretty much it.

A Bolton Fortified moat Cailin? How fortified would the moat be if Ramsey is defending Winterfell. Ramsey's army was probably weakened a little but from fighting Stannis so I would imagine that'd be another reason to call them back to Winterfell. I don't think he wasted resources for an ancient ruin for an attack you don't know is coming and I imagine it was unmanned. The Lannisters weren't marching North for the Boltons. Tywin was dead and so in essence the Brains of House Lannister. They wouldn't have marched North for Sansa anyway. Then why would they have to take the kings road? Could have sailed to white harbor.

I look forward to the books as well. Martin's plot isn't the end all be all for me in story telling. He could have done some things to make the story better. He's not the best writer who ever lived but I look forward to which story line I like better his or the shows.

 

[engie]

Nothing was great about season 5. They were at the point(in the books) where George lost focus and just kept world-building to the point that he, now, can't figure out how to bring it all back together and tie it in a tidy little knot. IMO that's why these last two books are taking forever. Actually, I thought season 4 was great until the final episode. They took some key shortcuts in the Tyrion/Jaime/Tywin storyline that would have added to it. The whole scenario felt rushed. Season 5 was a disaster for disaster's sake as they were beyond and/or off book. D&D took everything from a fairly logical place on the board at the beginning of the season -- and gave it illogical conclusions in a negative manner just so they could go the opposite way and do it in a positive manner in season 6. And then just posture to set up the endgame in season 7.

On Moat Cailin -- I don't think you are quite understanding what that fortification is. It's not something that requires a massive army to hold. In AGOT, Ned sent I think it was 40 archers to fortify the moat. That was enough to prevent the full force of 60,000 Lannisters from having a chance to invade the north by his calculation at the time. Furthermore -- the Moat is the only reason the north still serves the Old Gods. The Andals defeated all the other kingdoms, but never could break through the moat. It has never in history been taken from the south. And LF literally says he has the Vale army stationed at MC when he has the Molestown meeting with Sansa. The Boltons were absolutely under threat of Lannister invasion of the north and in open rebellion against the crown. They knew as much. Hell, Cersei's bidding to end them is exactly what the Vale did -- LF just swapped sides before completing the task. Both in show and book, Jaime is proving to be a brilliant tactician in his own right. The smarter route was to actually go with a FArya storyline -- that the crown is privy to -- and not putting them at odds with the Lannisters. And then a simple explanation of Howland Reed smuggling the Vale through the Neck would have sufficed. Still made ZERO sense that 5-10k Calvary could sneak up on a ruling army over thousands of miles without the ruling army ever knowing they were coming.

It was ridiculous to have Stannis go out in the stupidity that he did -- and it was ridiculous to have Roose go out how he did. Both deserved better. I do not see book Ramsey being long for the world. I think Stannis takes Winterfell with his trickeration and Roose retreats and is left holed up at the Dreadfort. I don't think Cersei ever sits the Iron Throne in the books. And the Lannisters are nowhere near the strongest army by the beginning of the Winds of Winter. They certainly have a role to play in the endgame

 

[Shamoan]

This might have already been discussed, but littlefinger's meddling narrative, doesn't make sense in the grand scheme. Perhaps I'm a dolt, (likely) but why does littlefinger even care about the relationship between the stark sisters? Why would he care if they distrusted or even hated each other, aside from some unlikely & convoluted end-game that anyone could and might imagine? It seems like a contrived and forced drama.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

This explains it in a nutshell without me typing.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/4254025/game-of-thrones-theory-bran-night-king/#comments

 

[msstatelp1]

Nothing was great about season 5. They were at the point(in the books) where George lost focus and just kept world-building to the point that he, now, can't figure out how to bring it all back together and tie it in a tidy little knot. IMO that's why these last two books are taking forever. Actually, I thought season 4 was great until the final episode. They took some key shortcuts in the Tyrion/Jaime/Tywin storyline that would have added to it. The whole scenario felt rushed. Season 5 was a disaster for disaster's sake as they were beyond and/or off book. D&D took everything from a fairly logical place on the board at the beginning of the season -- and gave it illogical conclusions in a negative manner just so they could go the opposite way and do it in a positive manner in season 6. And then just posture to set up the endgame in season 7.

On Moat Cailin -- I don't think you are quite understanding what that fortification is. It's not something that requires a massive army to hold. In AGOT, Ned sent I think it was 40 archers to fortify the moat. That was enough to prevent the full force of 60,000 Lannisters from having a chance to invade the north by his calculation at the time. Furthermore -- the Moat is the only reason the north still serves the Old Gods. The Andals defeated all the other kingdoms, but never could break through the moat. It has never in history been taken from the south. And LF literally says he has the Vale army stationed at MC when he has the Molestown meeting with Sansa. The Boltons were absolutely under threat of Lannister invasion of the north and in open rebellion against the crown. They knew as much. Hell, Cersei's bidding to end them is exactly what the Vale did -- LF just swapped sides before completing the task. Both in show and book, Jaime is proving to be a brilliant tactician in his own right. The smarter route was to actually go with a FArya storyline -- that the crown is privy to -- and not putting them at odds with the Lannisters. And then a simple explanation of Howland Reed smuggling the Vale through the Neck would have sufficed. Still made ZERO sense that 5-10k Calvary could sneak up on a ruling army over thousands of miles without the ruling army ever knowing they were coming.

It was ridiculous to have Stannis go out in the stupidity that he did -- and it was ridiculous to have Roose go out how he did. Both deserved better. I do not see book Ramsey being long for the world. I think Stannis takes Winterfell with his trickeration and Roose retreats and is left holed up at the Dreadfort. I don't think Cersei ever sits the Iron Throne in the books. And the Lannisters are nowhere near the strongest army by the beginning of the Winds of Winter. They certainly have a role to play in the endgame

As for Most Cailin whose to say they didn't just let LF through? He was leading the Knights of the Vale and he sold Sansa to the Boltons so he had a history of working with them. How do you know he didn't just ride up and proclaim that he was going to help the Boltons and was passed through.

 

[engie]

And THEN didn't let Ramsey know they were coming? Even as allies he would have had to figure out how to feed them, etc...

The whole scenario is nonsensical because they wanted the dramatic music ride of the Rohirim to save the day.

 

[Xenomorph]

That's some "Jar Jar is really a Sith lord"-level analysis. The year and a half wait is going to be excruciating.

And to everybody bashing D&D over the storyline.. remember... they were never supposed to be writing the story. Only adapting books to a screenplay. Now since GRRM can't finish the hugely complex story he started HBO is left to ask the show writers to finish it for him.

 

[PBRME]

View attachment 7599

 

[Sutterkane]

The Boat that was Promised.

 

[MSUDawgFan86]

And THEN didn't let Ramsey know they were coming? Even as allies he would have had to figure out how to feed them, etc...

The whole scenario is nonsensical because they wanted the dramatic music ride of the Rohirim to save the day.

And what is wrong with that exactly? Just curious.

 

[EurekaDog]

If you read a lot of real-life wars, you'll come across quite a number of...

I'm going to preface this by saying I know the show is about dragons and a dead army. With that in mind, there was so many unbelievable things/cop outs in this episode. It was a good episode but my god how many times are people going to get saved just in the nick of time?

... examples of soldiers, people, etc. who were saved in the "nick of time". There are also numerous examples of people being killed (in a moment) because they did or did not make a simple decision.

 

[engie]

And what is wrong with that exactly? Just curious.

It's nonsensical. It's poor/lazy writing for dramatic effect. That battle paints both Jon and Ramsey as total idiots. Jon for obvious reasons, and Ramsey for not knowing an army of 10,000 horse was on his door step uninvited, after being in his territory for a thousand miles. The point to a great story and villain is being able to place yourself in a character's shoes and them making logical choices which either succeed or fail which provide you with a theme.

When Ramsey knows the Vale is coming as he logically would -- he sits behind the walls -- and lets them all die in the attempted siege while he has a year worth of provisions(noted by Roose in season 5) inside the fortress. That is the logical decision. The only decision. Unlike how the story is unfolding -- you don't fall uphill in life -- and especially in that culture -- by consistently being an idiot -- even though it has happened non-stop in the show the last couple of seasons. While the early seasons punished stupidity greatly.

Stannis is going to take it in Winds and it's going to be quite complex involving the frozen lake and what I believe to be the pink letter ruse. And the Manderlys/Dustins at the door step unbeknownst to the Boltons because of the raging storm going on in the north. A well-written, logical victory by a superior tactician. I doubt the Boltons are totally defeated or eradicated however.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Exactly

 

[MSUDawgFan86]

It's nonsensical. It's poor/lazy writing for dramatic effect. That battle paints both Jon and Ramsey as total idiots. Jon for obvious reasons, and Ramsey for not knowing an army of 10,000 horse was on his door step uninvited, after being in his territory for a thousand miles. The point to a great story and villain is being able to place yourself in a character's shoes and them making logical choices which either succeed or fail which provide you with a theme.

When Ramsey knows the Vale is coming as he logically would -- he sits behind the walls -- and lets them all die in the attempted siege while he has a year worth of provisions(noted by Roose in season 5) inside the fortress. That is the logical decision. The only decision. Unlike how the story is unfolding -- you don't fall uphill in life -- and especially in that culture -- by consistently being an idiot -- even though it has happened non-stop in the show the last couple of seasons. While the early seasons punished stupidity greatly.

Stannis is going to take it in Winds and it's going to be quite complex involving the frozen lake and what I believe to be the pink letter ruse. And the Manderlys/Dustins at the door step unbeknownst to the Boltons because of the raging storm going on in the north. A well-written, logical victory by a superior tactician. I doubt the Boltons are totally defeated or eradicated however.

It's a show with Dragons, White Walkers, etc. and you're talking about something being nonsensical? I'm pretty sure 99.9% of people don't relate to characters in the way you do and that's ok. Everybody is different and that's awesome. Do you think everyone does things logically in Game of Thrones? Bc I don't. Everyone isn't Tywin Lannister or Tyrion Lannister. They do illogical things. Every time somebody does something stupid they don't pay for it in the show either. The early seasons didn't always punish stupidity greatly. Joffrey had Ned Stark beheaded which was incredibly stupid which erupted into the war of the 5 kings. You want to talk about nonsensical? How about there just so happened to be all these barrels of wildfire left over and just hanging out from the previous regime to blow up Stannis's Fleet and that just so happen to discover it in time. Really? It's hard for you to buy the Battle of the Bastards and you can buy that?

As far as the way Stannis died I wouldn't mind seeing that changed and having him take Winterfell. He was a master strategist and excellent military commander but you never got a chance to see that in the show. They made him a whipping boy which is idiotic. We can agree on that for sure. That could be better than the Battle of the Bastards if done correctly.

 

[MSUDC11]

Stannis had his own daughter murdered as a desperate sacrifice to the Lord of Light and half his army abandoned him for it. That's why he died like a chump. Made sense to me.

 

[engie]

People always revert to that statement when arguing about fantasy. But the rules of the game were set early on. Once those are set -- they must be followed -- or the weight of the story suffers.

You don't have to be a "master strategist" like Tywin or Tyrion to be an understandable POV(or, at least, the Tyrion on the page -- the D&D written version of the last 2 seasons has done nothing but get his *** kicked -- while constantly falling uphill nonsensically during said *** kickings).

Joffrey beheading Ned had nothing to do with the starting of the Wot5K either, when Jaime was already Robb's prisoner and half the Lannister force had been smashed prior to the beheading. It just ensured the war couldn't end in a truce. Which it essentially still will. It was also not the wildfire that defeated Stannis on the Blackwater. It was just a strong blow. The wildfire was an integral part of the whole story -- the very basis of the hostility between the Lannisters and Starks from the getgo -- and the setting of Jaime Lannister as the primary villain when that wasn't really the whole story.

I think Stannis goes down his path on the screen when the WW encroach on him at Winterfell. He certainly isn't going to do it because it's cold outside -- and the greatest commander in Westeros got all his food burned because Ramsey took 20 men all through the center of his encampment and past all of his many defenses for such a thing happening.

 

[MSUDawgFan86]

Stannis had his own daughter murdered as a desperate sacrifice to the Lord of Light and half his army abandoned him for it. That's why he died like a chump. Made sense to me.

Yeah I see that but in the books he didn't do that. Shireen stays at Castle Black and is currently still alive. In this instance book Stannis is a better story than show Stannis.

 

[engie]

Stannis had his own daughter murdered as a desperate sacrifice to the Lord of Light and half his army abandoned him for it. That's why he died like a chump. Made sense to me.

How he found himself in the predicament to begin with didn't make sense. The fact is -- the taking of Winterfell on the precipice of winter was going to be a tough plotline to get right and do justice to, regardless. Especially with Roose and Ramsey being shows as worthy adversaries. D&D didn't have/didn't want to devote the time to getting that part right. Which was strange -- because they essentially spent a whole additional season on it. The Great Northern Conspiracy should have actually happened on the show.

Now they are just giving characters stuff to do for the sake of doing something(Jaime's trip to Dorne anyone? -- Jorah and Gentry beyond the wall -- etc) rather than allowing the characters as they have been established to simply define their moves. Made perfect sense for Gentry to be back in KL forging weapons. Would have made a lot more to take him from there straight to WF to forge dragonglass weapons for the north and vale rather than meandering beyond the wall "because he's the fastest"...

I guess broken down as simply as possible -- that is my issue with the show now. It's forcing characters to act outside of their established character in order to hit major plot points, with only the cast that they have established as key players. When new key players should have arisen to take up many of those mantles. Abandoning castles at Dragonstone, Storm's End, Dreadfort, etc? Outlandish