After all that, we released Brooks anyway

[ababyatemydingo]

Google.

Recent(as in the last couple years...so maybe 2-3 seasons?) examples are at USF, Okie State, Cal, UCONN, and AppState(in a relatively infamous and plot twisting way). I will offer up that Floyd at UTEP refused and was absolutely destroyed by the media for it. Same with Capel at AppState.

This is off the top of my head. I dont know players, except for the UTEP one, without looking them up. You do it...or dont. Either way.
I am not making generalizations, at least I dont think I am making them as a way to make a point without it being true. Unfortunate you feel that way.



The NLI is the worst contract in sports- https://www.si.com/college-football/2015/02/09/national-letter-intent-punt-pass-pork
If I had a child who were a 4* recruit, I would push for financial aid papers only. Even if they were a high 3*, I would push for that if the coaching staff were pressuring for an early signing day to lock my kid up. Financial aid papers or bust.
The system is bad, many recognize its bad, and therefore all these exceptions and qualifications have been informally established. This is all just a spectrum and where you guys fall on said spectrum happens to be in a different place than where I fall. You are OK with some exceptions to the rule but not as many as I am. This is really what I am being ripped on for- being OK with more unofficial exceptions than you. Nobody thinks the letter of the law must be followed without exception, but I am some crazy for being OK with more exception than you.
Its laughable, really.

That Memphis article is completely irrelevant to what engie asked you to provide references to. He asked you to back up your statement that "a release isn't unique, even when there is no coaching change". Referring to incoming freshmen, where the school has had no coaching change or any changes at all since the player signed the LOI. You still haven't done that. Now, you're on to providing examples of players already enrolled transferring, and completely dodging the question engie asked you. You still don't get it that schools just can't wait until August to see who shows up on campus, with no commitment from a recruit. College basketball is big business, and schools need to have that assurance that its OK to stop recruiting other players that might fill the void if Player A doesn't show up. Yeah, it may suck for Player A, if he has a change of heart. But that's living in the adult world. You make decisions, and you live with the consequences of those decisions. Those consequences may be awesome, or they may suck. How would you feel if a group of talented 5 star AAU players committed to us, there was no such thing as a LOI, they all get together in the summer leagues before school starts and decide they are going somewhere else together? With the school that they committed to (but never signed an LOI, because those don't exist in this hypothetical situation) left in the cold with zero recruits showing up for that year. I guess you'd be OK with that.

 

[ChinaDogSunflower]

That is all the Millenials have been taught for the most part, but they are certainly distancing themselves from the Baby Boomer fallacy of entitled egocentrism.

 

[mstateglfr]

That Memphis article is completely irrelevant to what engie asked you to provide references to. He asked you to back up your statement that "a release isn't unique, even when there is no coaching change". Referring to incoming freshmen, where the school has had no coaching change or any changes at all since the player signed the LOI. You still haven't done that. Now, you're on to providing examples of players already enrolled transferring, and completely dodging the question engie asked you. You still don't get it that schools just can't wait until August to see who shows up on campus, with no commitment from a recruit. College basketball is big business, and schools need to have that assurance that its OK to stop recruiting other players that might fill the void if Player A doesn't show up. Yeah, it may suck for Player A, if he has a change of heart. But that's living in the adult world. You make decisions, and you live with the consequences of those decisions. Those consequences may be awesome, or they may suck. How would you feel if a group of talented 5 star AAU players committed to us, there was no such thing as a LOI, they all get together in the summer leagues before school starts and decide they are going somewhere else together? With the school that they committed to (but never signed an LOI, because those don't exist in this hypothetical situation) left in the cold with zero recruits showing up for that year. I guess you'd be OK with that.

What the 17 are you ranting about? I didnt provide any article about Memphis transfers. I havent discussed any specific currently enrolled players. And I didnt mention Memphis as a school when I said to use google and learn about a handful of recent examples that were off the top of my head.
Holy hell man.

 

[boatsandhoes]

Man, a long road here. Not going to get into all that.

that's not what baby boomers are. That is what some liberal cheesedick professor says (who probably never had a real job) they are which is also a false theory. I have a term for this teaching which I won't say here. the _____________ of america.

 

[engie]

so, a bunch of words -- but, no, you do not have any specific examples. And are fine being the one getting 17d on the front end in hopes of a sweeping culture change.

I think it's ******** that I have to run 70 down a highway that a big rig with 15x the stopping distance also has to run 70 down. So, I should never face any consequences for running 100. According to you.

 

[mstateglfr]

so, a bunch of words -- but, no, you do not have any specific examples. And are fine being the one getting 17d on the front end in hopes of a sweeping culture change.

I think it's ******** that I have to run 70 down a highway that a big rig with 15x the stopping distance also has to run 70 down. So, I should never face any consequences for running 100. According to you.

I provided basic information for specific examples. Look them up if you want or don't if you don't want. I have no comment on your highway hypothetical, I am not going to get into the game of interpreting a comment and applying it in a twisted way to other scenarios in life.

 

[Old Fart Dawg]

We've got Howland--Year 3 coming up.
Poor sumbich is going to miss the ride.

 

[engie]

I provided basic information for specific examples

Which I, nor most here, believe actually exist. You want me to create your own scenario for you which you pulled out of thin air? Not surprising given the logic of most of your arguments.

Look them up if you want or don't if you don't want. I have no comment on your highway hypothetical, I am not going to get into the game of interpreting a comment and applying it in a twisted way to other scenarios in life.

You just like to do that as long as you can do it unchecked. Got you.

 

[mstateglfr]

Makai ashton langford.
Troy baxter.

There are 2. Now get started explaining how their releases dont apply to my comment that MSU's decision to release Brooks isnt uncommon.

 

[HD6]

Except that Brooks doesn't have to sit out a year. It's nothing like a transfer at all. Call it what it is, a flip, no different than what happens on Signing Day in football, which would just start to happen in basketball in your plan.

 

[engie]

Makai ashton langford.

Last month the Huskies parted ways with assistant coach and Ashton-Langford’s lead recruiter, Glen Miller, which then allowed the dominos to begin to fall.

Troy baxter.

a program that's already under NCAA investigation and won all of eight games last year. Baxter was a high-ceiling player with the potential to help turn it around for Orlando Antigua.

There are 2. Now get started explaining how their releases dont apply to my comment that MSU's decision to release Brooks isnt uncommon.

No need for me to explain the difference AGAIN. You already did it yourself. NEITHER of your examples fit the Brooks mold whatsoever, other than the fact that they actually did transfer.

 

[mstateglfr]

Jesus. Yup, i am not going to find another example ofn5a signee with divorced parents whose dad is a coach at the signed school and a mom who is allegedly meddling.

There is not going tonbe an example which fits that absurdly narrow qualification.

Here is a quote from Ashton Langford...
"At first, it was mainly because of Coach Miller leaving that made me think about it," Ashton-Langford told ESPN, "but as I started to do that, I realized I kind of made my first decision spontaneously right after my visit."
So the guy flat out states he made his decision spontaneously and ultimately wanted out. UCONN agreed.
Thats it.
There will always be a catalyst and i doubt itll ever be divorced parents where the dad is a coach and the mom allegedly doesnt support the decision. Just because the catalyst isnt identical to brooks doesnt mean the example isnt valid.
Ashton langford is quoted as saying he decided spontaneously and thats why he asked for the release.


As fo troy baxter...your pasted text about how he signed with a bad team is irrelevant. Same thing about the investigations. That doesnt justify his request for release any more than Brooks. Investigations happen all across the country and an investigation is different from penalties which would justify being released from the NLI.
Baxter wanted to persue greener pastures and was looking at UCLA and others in addition to uNLV onstead of USF.


Even still, if you think both these are examples where releasing the players is justified, then you clearly view the NLI as a document which can be broken. Your position along the spectrum of what is acceptable is simply different than where i am on that same spectrum.
Thing is...neither positions think the actual NLI should always be followed, which is yet another point and that is something thats been argued in multiple threads.



Player commits and signs without enough thought, decides he wants out, but nah that isnt similar enough to Brooks' situation. Too funny.

 

[HD6]

Man you're dumb.

The first kid, he flat out says he started reconsidering when the coach left Again, that situation and MSU's situation with Brooks are different because MSU did not have a coach leave. Nothing changed at MSU for Brooks to have to reconsider. Nothing.

The second kid, USF goes under investigation, a month later he decides he wants out. So again, not similar to MSU's situation at all, as MSU is not under investigation. In both of these cases, there were extenuating circumstances at the school that got the player thinking he should ask for a release. What engie, I, and everybody else would like to see is one case where a player was granted a release when literally nothing had happened at the school. No coaching changes, no recruits or transfers brought in who might take playing time, no NCAA investigation. The kid just up and decides he wants out and the school says fine. Can you provide one example of that?

 

[mstateglfr]

Man you're dumb.

The first kid, he flat out says he started reconsidering when the coach left Again, that situation and MSU's situation with Brooks are different because MSU did not have a coach leave. Nothing changed at MSU for Brooks to have to reconsider. Nothing.

"but as I started to do that, I realized I kind of made my first decision spontaneously right after my visit."
Yup, the assistant coach leaving sparked his reconsideration. And he then thought about it more and realized he wasnt prepared to go to UCONN. He didnt leave because the coach left, he says that much in the quote- he wanted out because he made his decision spontaneously right after his visit and realized he wasnt ready.

The second kid, USF goes under investigation, a month later he decides he wants out. So again, not similar to MSU's situation at all, as MSU is not under investigation.

Why is notice of an academic investigation justifiable for a release? Its just an investigation- no penalties, no charges even. How is that seriously an acceptable reason?
Holy hell this is just too funny.

In both of these cases, there were extenuating circumstances at the school that got the player thinking he should ask for a release. What engie, I, and everybody else would like to see is one case where a player was granted a release when literally nothing had happened at the school. No coaching changes, no recruits or transfers brought in who might take playing time, no NCAA investigation. The kid just up and decides he wants out and the school says fine. Can you provide one example of that?

Well, at Oklahoma State, a recruit was recently released from his NLI. The reason given was his grandparent died, i think. Ultimately, instead of playing 1700mi from home, he is playing 40mi from home and for a program that heavily recruited him the first time around.


I am sure this is yet another extenuating circumstance that will be justifiable in your(and other's eyes) and is therefore not applicable to the discussion. <rolleyes>




So again- you, engie, and others view a binding NLI as a binding agreement where the recruit must pay the price unless any of the following circumstances occur...
- the coach leaves.
- a player realizes they committed and signed before they were emotionally ready.
- an assistant coach leaves.
- a program is simply looked into by the NCAA(without charges or penalties levied).
- a grandparent has already died(i am assuming you will disagree with my Jared Terrell example).



1- we have no idea what happened behind the scenes with Brooks. You and others claim that it was spontaneous and there was no justified outside catalyst like these other cases. I genuinely dont know if there wasnt one or if one just wasnt announced. Also, I am not sure how family/personal issues(Brooks) isnt justifiable if a recently deceased relative is justifiable or if realizing the signing was spontaneously agreed to is justifiable.
2- You are OK with so many reasons for a recruit to break the NLI. You are clearly not a hardliner. It isnt all or nothing for you. Since you are OK with exceptions, it is shocking that take issue with someone else who is also OK with exceptions, just more than you. You recognize that there are justified reasons to break a contract, but then get all worked up when someone else is OK with a reason(s) you arent OK with? That is too funny. Talk about inconsistent since you, and others, suddenly take the position of Brooks made his grave here and has to pay the price for signing the NLI when you then are OK with a bunch of reasons to break the NLI.

 

[HD6]

Do you have a link for the Oklahoma State kid, which if you say happened recently, would mean it happened right after a coaching change, since they've hired two in two years.

I know, and pretty much everybody else here who can read between the lines, know what happened behind the scenes with Brooks, and it is not anything new. The same problems that exist today existed in November.

I am not OK with anybody breaking an NLI. I am ok with the school releasing a player from it when circumstances dictate that decision. I am not OK with a player requesting a release when nothing has changed on the school's end. I believe the only justified reason to break a contract is when one party isn't delivering their end of the bargain and you can demonstrate that. MSU was fully prepared to hold up their end of the bargain.

 

[mstateglfr]

Do you have a link for the Oklahoma State kid, which if you say happened recently, would mean it happened right after a coaching change, since they've hired two in two years.

My gosh, use google. Jared Terrell. Google him and read. You defined 'recently' to fit your argument that it was right after a coaching change. I used the term to mean 'not a long time ago'. It was 3 years ago. The player is still in college. I dont find that to be long ago and I do think it is recent when discussing this topic. If you feel like 3 years ago is a long time, then accept a difference of opinion on what is effectively an undefinable term and move the 17 on. Ford had been the coach for the better part of a decade(here is another phrase you can argue over!) when he released Terrell.

I know, and pretty much everybody else here who can read between the lines, know what happened behind the scenes with Brooks, and it is not anything new. The same problems that exist today existed in November.

Ok...so you are turning speculation into fact. You are probably correct, or mostly correct, with your speculation. But still, you are assuming something and arguing it as factual events.

I am not OK with anybody breaking an NLI. I am ok with the school releasing a player from it when circumstances dictate that decision. I am not OK with a player requesting a release when nothing has changed on the school's end. I believe the only justified reason to break a contract is when one party isn't delivering their end of the bargain and you can demonstrate that. MSU was fully prepared to hold up their end of the bargain.

Oh this is rich.
- A program announces it is being investigated- not penalized or even charged, but simply investigated- and you think that is justified? What circumstances actually changed?...none. What specifically wasnt delivered on the school's side of the deal to justify the release?...nothing.
- A player regrets signing spontaneously, and you think that is justified? What specifically wasnt delivered on the school's side of the deal to justify the release?...nothing.
- A grandparent died(not was sick, but had passed) and you think that is justified? What circumstances about the contractual agreement actually changed?...none.

Yet you have argued that the actual real examples above were OK and cant be used to show that other schools have released players from their NLI for reasons other than a head coach change.

The NLI is with the school and not the coaches. So using your view, it isnt even justifiable for a player to be released due to a staff change since the school is holding up its side of the agreement. After all, the player signed with the school and the school's program is still there for the player to join.
Your justifications for being released from an NLI, while understandable and reasonable, dont actually support your prior comments. Thats rough.

 

[HD6]

I'm excited to get to do the quote thing.

My gosh, use google. Jared Terrell. Google him and read. You defined 'recently' to fit your argument that it was right after a coaching change. I used the term to mean 'not a long time ago'. It was 3 years ago. The player is still in college. I dont find that to be long ago and I do think it is recent when discussing this topic. If you feel like 3 years ago is a long time, then accept a difference of opinion on what is effectively an undefinable term and move the 17 on. Ford had been the coach for the better part of a decade(here is another phrase you can argue over!) when he released Terrell.

I'm not the one bringing it up. Don't say "this happened" without providing proof. That's how things like this work you know.

Ok...so you are turning speculation into fact. You are probably correct, or mostly correct, with your speculation. But still, you are assuming something and arguing it as factual events.

There is zero speculation on my part.

So using your view, it isnt even justifiable for a player to be released due to a staff change since the school is holding up its side of the agreement. After all, the player signed with the school and the school's program is still there for the player to join.

This is accurate. It's the school's decision. In a case where something changes at the school, I would support the release, but that doesn't mean the school is forced to grant it, and I get that. As far as those three examples....

1. Didn't we just last week discuss Ole Miss and their recruits signing with knowledge of the NCAA investigation and how dumb that was? So this kid finds out the school is unlikely to play in the NCAA Tournament in his time there, going to be faced with scholarship limitations during his time there, and will in all likelihood have a new head coach the next season (which has happened), but you feel nothing changed? Are you really this dense? I guess so. This player received new information and used it to make a decision. We should be pointing him out to the idiots who signed with the Rebels the past two years as a role model. I mean, I'm sure as part of the recruiting process, USF said he'd be a part of tournament teams (which you can't do under probation), would recruit great players around him (difficult to do under NCAA investigation, and that the coach wasn't going anywhere (he was fired during this past season). I would say plenty changed on the schools end.

2. The kid himself says he didn't start having second thoughts until the coach left. In other words, had the coach stayed, he never would have started thinking about it. This example doesn't support your argument at all.

3. This is probably the weakest argument for a release, which sounds heartless but its true. But in the end, the school decided to do right by the player. That was their choice. And while it wasn't with the school, you can argue something changed here, the player's family underwent a tragedy and he asked to be released. What changed for Brooks? I will answer that for you, absolutely nothing.