Chris Livingston - Expectations

Jan 3, 2003
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Let's do a little math, shall we. At 33%, you score 1 pps, the same as shooting 50% from 2. You know who shoots 50% from 2?? Only the top 85 field goal percentage players in the NCAA. If your best shooter is shooting 33%, it is a problem. If your 3rd or 4th option to shoot a 3 is shooting 33%, you are fine.

Did you read my post?? Grady was a career 35% 3pt shooter when he transferred to UK, and most people called him a shooter. We can talk about slumps all day, but the truth is, every shooter has them. If you are going to subtract the slumps of the guys last year, then let's subtract the slumps from all guys going forward. I used last year's team because the conversation was centered on the offensive end. The issue after the injuries last year wasn't so much the offensive end, it was the defensive end. We lost in the first round, not because we couldn't score, but because we couldn't keep them from scoring.

The reason we looked like the best team in the country for a period of time was because we were putting the absolute clamps on people. We beat UT like a drum in Rupp because we forced them to turn the ball over a lot, which allowed us to get out in transition where we killed them. Getting out in transition meant we scored quickly, which led to a high number of possessions and we looked great. Injuries made us less effective on the defensive end, and we ceased looking like the best team in the nation. Which brings me to this point, know why we were able to beat LSU and Alabama without TyTy and Wheeler?? Mainly because we had to play Brooks and Toppin together (one of them at the 3), which made us a better defensive team with the size. We beat LSU shooting a combined 2-12 from 3, which included a banked 3 from Toppin. Fans would have crucified Cal, but he really probably should have stuck with that type of line-up going forward when you only had 4 perimeter players and 3 of the 4 were battling issues.
Actually Grady was a career 36.6% (rounds to 37%) 3pt shooter before coming to UK. He only made less than 37% in 1 of his 4 seasons (37, 34, 37, 38). And he improved that at UK to 41%, even after his late season slump.
That is why I am optimistic for Reeves, who made I think 39.8% (40%) last year, BUT was much worse the year before (I think low 30's). For Grady I think the increase was due to him not having to be "the man" to get a bucket at UK, where he was just one of the options, so he probably took better quality shots (although every game it seemed like there was 1 WTF shot that he made). Reeves also will be a contributor instead of "the guy", so hopefully he too can maintain near 40%.
Of course Fredrick we know can shoot, if he can stay off the trainers table, is our 1st 3pt option.
I see Reeves our 2nd. And Wallace our 3rd.
After that I would not be surprised if the 4th option was (in order) Toppin, Livingston, Collins, Oscar, Wheeler.
Ware should just try to master a FT first, and Theiro won't play much.
Wheeler made a good % after mid-January (41%), but keep in mind that was just 12 made. And I think 2 of those were banked in (LUCK), but even subtracting those 2 that still put him at 34% which I would take. BUT 29 attempts is still a small sample size, looking at the confidence interval around 35% with 29 attempts we would be 90% confident his true 3pt % is between 20% & 50% which is a huge range. But still I would be ok with anything in the 30's from Wheeler. But his form is SO BAD, and his shot is SO FLAT, I think his true % is really in the 20's.

And you are probably right (in retrospect) about the line-up make up late in the year.
 

bucsrule8872

Heisman
May 30, 2005
24,397
29,352
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Let's do a little math, shall we. At 33%, you score 1 pps, the same as shooting 50% from 2. You know who shoots 50% from 2?? Only the top 85 field goal percentage players in the NCAA. If your best shooter is shooting 33%, it is a problem. If your 3rd or 4th option to shoot a 3 is shooting 33%, you are fine.

Did you read my post?? Grady was a career 35% 3pt shooter when he transferred to UK, and most people called him a shooter. We can talk about slumps all day, but the truth is, every shooter has them. If you are going to subtract the slumps of the guys last year, then let's subtract the slumps from all guys going forward. I used last year's team because the conversation was centered on the offensive end. The issue after the injuries last year wasn't so much the offensive end, it was the defensive end. We lost in the first round, not because we couldn't score, but because we couldn't keep them from scoring.

The reason we looked like the best team in the country for a period of time was because we were putting the absolute clamps on people. We beat UT like a drum in Rupp because we forced them to turn the ball over a lot, which allowed us to get out in transition where we killed them. Getting out in transition meant we scored quickly, which led to a high number of possessions and we looked great. Injuries made us less effective on the defensive end, and we ceased looking like the best team in the nation. Which brings me to this point, know why we were able to beat LSU and Alabama without TyTy and Wheeler?? Mainly because we had to play Brooks and Toppin together (one of them at the 3), which made us a better defensive team with the size. We beat LSU shooting a combined 2-12 from 3, which included a banked 3 from Toppin. Fans would have crucified Cal, but he really probably should have stuck with that type of line-up going forward when you only had 4 perimeter players and 3 of the 4 were battling issues.
This was my point.
 

Padsfs07

All-Conference
Jan 19, 2013
3,947
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Or maybe it’s because he shot 33% from 3 in HS and players usually don’t increase their shooting going from HS to college and 33% is not that good.

I know you said usually, but I believe that is moreso true with really good shooters going from HS to college. (Fredrick, for instance, went from 48% to 46% // Herro went from 44% to 36% // Monk went from 46% to 40%)

Livingston was the primary guy at Oak Hill this past season and had to shoot a lot of shots that he wouldn't be taking at UK. I think someone on twitter said he shot way better at spot-up 3s.

Everyone is comparing Livingston to Keldon Johnson and he shot 31.4% on 3s at Oak Hill, then went for 38.1% at UK as Herro and Washington were the primary scorers.

https://www.oakhillhoops.com/roster_players/19809219
 

bucsrule8872

Heisman
May 30, 2005
24,397
29,352
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I know you said usually, but I believe that is moreso true with really good shooters going from HS to college. (Fredrick, for instance, went from 48% to 46% // Herro went from 44% to 36% // Monk went from 46% to 40%)

Livingston was the primary guy at Oak Hill this past season and had to shoot a lot of shots that he wouldn't be taking at UK. I think someone on twitter said he shot way better at spot-up 3s.

Everyone is comparing Livingston to Keldon Johnson and he shot 31.4% on 3s at Oak Hill, then went for 38.1% at UK as Herro and Washington were the primary scorers.

https://www.oakhillhoops.com/roster_players/19809219
So we are hanging our hopes that a 33% from 3 shooter in HS will do the same thing that another UK player did and buck the trend and improve their shooting?

I always thought that the safe bet would be to expect a player to do what most other players do in his situation, instead of cherry picking what one similar player did and expecting him to do that.

I hope Livingston shoots better than 33% from 3, but I am expecting 33% or lower. And if he is out there with Wheeler, Tshiebwe, Toppin, and Wallace (the expected starting five), then he will be expected to be our second option (behind Wallace) when it comes to 3’s and 33% is not a good percentage for your second option. Now if Toppin or Wheeler or both improve their shooting and make him the third or fourth option, then that’s an acceptable number from 3.
 

Ky_Bred_Cat

All-Conference
Dec 28, 2014
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I only saw him play a little bit in one of these recent made for TV tournaments and what I saw was a scrappy defensive rebounder mostly making put backs and short jumpers. I know what I saw was a small sample size but I didn't get the feeling he is what you would call a 'shooter.' Could it be the next level talent and size revealing what he will actually be at the college level?
 
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Cawood86_rivals

Heisman
Feb 20, 2005
36,711
64,715
0
Lmao, only you would not give someone credit for being a finalist for an award that shows you are top 5 at your position in the country.
Brooks was a finalist for some award....plenty of players on the list for awards....starts with about 20-30 then whittles down to five "finalists" ....you guys sure try hard...I'll give you that
 

Gromcat_rivals

Heisman
Jun 28, 2021
10,292
27,496
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Lmao, only you would not give someone credit for being a finalist for an award that shows you are top 5 at your position in the country.

Dude just stop. Wheeler is a good player, does some things well but is really limited and comes with some issues. He’s not a top 5 PG in the country good lord bro.

Cawood is 100% correct that if Calipari could recruit the way he once did Wheeler wouldn’t be anywhere near a UK uniform and you damn well know it. You can gaslight all you want but you’ve you get this **** better than that.

Hell Oscar won player of the year but the truth is he’s limited too. The makeup of our team isn’t winning a title. It’s just extending Calipari to produce a decent season so he can maintain until he collects money and makes his way toward a reasonable buyout.

I swear some of you would be totally fine with turning UK from the top tier into a Syracuse with Boeheim.
 

BigCat241

All-Conference
May 3, 2021
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Dude just stop. Wheeler is a good player, does some things well but is really limited and comes with some issues. He’s not a top 5 PG in the country good lord bro.

Cawood is 100% correct that if Calipari could recruit the way he once did Wheeler wouldn’t be anywhere near a UK uniform and you damn well know it. You can gaslight all you want but you’ve you get this **** better than that.

Hell Oscar won player of the year but the truth is he’s limited too. The makeup of our team isn’t winning a title. It’s just extending Calipari to produce a decent season so he can maintain until he collects money and makes his way toward a reasonable buyout.

I swear some of you would be totally fine with turning UK from the top tier into a Syracuse with Boeheim.
Personally I dont think he was either. But the Cousy award is given to "college basketball's top point guard." So being a finalist for it as in top 5 must mean your pretty good right? And that goes back to my simple original point that ruffled some feathers was that "Sahvir Wheeler is one of the top returning players in the country". Look at the final lists for all 5 position awards. Barely any of them are returning, Wheeler is, making him one of the top returning players, I dont know what is hard to understand about that.
 
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kelzer

Senior
Nov 24, 2019
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Brooks was a finalist for some award....plenty of players on the list for awards....starts with about 20-30 then whittles down to five "finalists" ....you guys sure try hard...I'll give you that
Wheeler's assists per game last year was 2nd all time in UK basketball history, and only about 0.12 of an assist behind Tyler Ulis's record season. But OK.
 
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STL_Cat

Heisman
Dec 4, 2011
65,272
58,549
98
Wheeler's assists per game last year was 2nd all time in UK basketball history, and only about 0.12 of an assist behind Tyler Ulis's record season. But OK.
This much is true but doesn’t really tell the entire story if you want to make the Ulis- Wheeler comp. Ulis had a much better A/TOV ratio. Wheeler just plays much more out of control than Tyler Ulis. Would you agree with that?
 

G-PIP

All-American
Mar 14, 2014
5,286
5,964
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This much is true but doesn’t really tell the entire story if you want to make the Ulis- Wheeler comp. Ulis had a much better A/TOV ratio. Wheeler just plays much more out of control than Tyler Ulis. Would you agree with that?
I think the ideal situation with Wheeler is having two good perimeter shooters and one ok shooter on the floor with him. Give Wheeler the right mix of shooters and the areas in which he is exceptional (e.g., speed, passing, drive& kick) start to cause huge problems for the other team – esp. his speed, as very few can keep up.

Right now I think Fredrick is a great shooter, Reeves is a good shooter, Wallace is pretty good for a Div. I caliber incoming freshman, and Livingston is ok taking only wide open shots (whether Toppin or Collins can produce similarly is hard to guess at this point, but at least I’ve seen Livingston in high school games look ok on perimeter shots).

In my opinion (could obviously be wrong, but…), if you don’t give Wheeler those shooters you put him in a difficult spot for making good things happen. He’s not a perimeter shooter (he can make some wide open shots there, but not something you want him looking for) and he’s not big enough to score by driving into the lane (although he can score on layups with his speed when the lane is open by getting his defender on his hip). And regardless, I think Wheeler exerts so much energy that 25-30 minutes a game is probably his limit before diminishing returns.
 

STL_Cat

Heisman
Dec 4, 2011
65,272
58,549
98
I think the ideal situation with Wheeler is having two good perimeter shooters and one ok shooter on the floor with him. Give Wheeler the right mix of shooters and the areas in which he is exceptional (e.g., speed, passing, drive& kick) start to cause huge problems for the other team – esp. his speed, as very few can keep up.

Right now I think Fredrick is a great shooter, Reeves is a good shooter, Wallace is pretty good for a Div. I caliber incoming freshman, and Livingston is ok taking only wide open shots (whether Toppin or Collins can produce similarly is hard to guess at this point, but at least I’ve seen Livingston in high school games look ok on perimeter shots).

In my opinion (could obviously be wrong, but…), if you don’t give Wheeler those shooters you put him in a difficult spot for making good things happen. He’s not a perimeter shooter (he can make some wide open shots there, but not something you want him looking for) and he’s not big enough to score by driving into the lane (although he can score on layups with his speed when the lane is open by getting his defender on his hip). And regardless, I think Wheeler exerts so much energy that 25-30 minutes a game is probably his limit before diminishing returns.
Agreed, and my biggest concern for this particular team is the lack of perimeter shooting firepower. I don’t think we need to have all our eggs in CJs basket, that’s for sure.
 

kelzer

Senior
Nov 24, 2019
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This much is true but doesn’t really tell the entire story if you want to make the Ulis- Wheeler comp. Ulis had a much better A/TOV ratio. Wheeler just plays much more out of control than Tyler Ulis. Would you agree with that?
I wasn’t making that comparison. Ulis’s A/T was phenomenal. But wheeler’s was 2nd best in all of the SEC - only TyTy’s was better.
 
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Jul 26, 2003
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I feel pretty good about Livingston, not so much about his skills but his attitude. Watching him on the court and even when he goes off the court he looks like a serious type. Seems to play hard all the time. If he has those things you know he will get better by just playing with better players if nothing else. It's that attitude that is hard to overcome and he looks like he has a good one.
 
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bucsrule8872

Heisman
May 30, 2005
24,397
29,352
0
I’ve seen a few people on this board saying they expect him to be a reserve, some even said 8th man. I have a hard time believing that. Who plays over him at the 3? Reeves is a mid-major talent. Yes, he can probably shoot better than Livingston, but we know that carries less weight with Cal than athleticism. Start Fredrick over him? Fredrick is smaller and less athletic and coming off a major injury. We know Cal likes length, but I don’t see Cal starting Toppin and Collins together, so I doubt Toppin is at the 3.

I think Livingston as the only prototypical SF on the team will start before all is said and done. I wouldn’t be surprised if he started all season at the 3. I see Wheeler, Wallace, Livingston, Toppin, and Tshiebwe as the starting five pretty much all season with Fredrick, Reeves, and Collins off the bench and Ware playing in relief of Tshiebwe. That’s the rotation I expect.
 
Jul 26, 2003
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The three should be an upgrade. When your starting three man is on the bench laughing at the coach all the time you know the game and team is not his high priority. Looking forward to players that care more.
 
Apr 22, 2011
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I’ve seen a few people on this board saying they expect him to be a reserve, some even said 8th man. I have a hard time believing that. Who plays over him at the 3? Reeves is a mid-major talent. Yes, he can probably shoot better than Livingston, but we know that carries less weight with Cal than athleticism. Start Fredrick over him? Fredrick is smaller and less athletic and coming off a major injury. We know Cal likes length, but I don’t see Cal starting Toppin and Collins together, so I doubt Toppin is at the 3.

I think Livingston as the only prototypical SF on the team will start before all is said and done. I wouldn’t be surprised if he started all season at the 3. I see Wheeler, Wallace, Livingston, Toppin, and Tshiebwe as the starting five pretty much all season with Fredrick, Reeves, and Collins off the bench and Ware playing in relief of Tshiebwe. That’s the rotation I expect.
I agree with most of what you said for sure!

That being said- I hate this whole narrative of "Reeves is a mid-major talent", like we can't expect much from him.

So was Kellen Grady. There are plenty of transfers every single year from the mid-majors that transfer to top schools and have unbelievable years.

I'm pretty stoked about him to be honest, he seems like a perfect off-the-bench guy who can fill it up and stretch the floor.

Other than that, great post, agree with everything you said. Think Livingston will be a major player for us.
 

DudahUK

Heisman
Jul 23, 2020
8,075
12,559
113
I agree with most of what you said for sure!

That being said- I hate this whole narrative of "Reeves is a mid-major talent", like we can't expect much from him.

So was Kellen Grady. There are plenty of transfers every single year from the mid-majors that transfer to top schools and have unbelievable years.

I'm pretty stoked about him to be honest, he seems like a perfect off-the-bench guy who can fill it up and stretch the floor.

Other than that, great post, agree with everything you said. Think Livingston will be a major player for us.
Grady underperformed IMO. Dude was straight up afraid to or unwilling to shoot at times. How much of that was due to injury? Who knows but he underperformed.
 
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bucsrule8872

Heisman
May 30, 2005
24,397
29,352
0
I agree with most of what you said for sure!

That being said- I hate this whole narrative of "Reeves is a mid-major talent", like we can't expect much from him.

So was Kellen Grady. There are plenty of transfers every single year from the mid-majors that transfer to top schools and have unbelievable years.

I'm pretty stoked about him to be honest, he seems like a perfect off-the-bench guy who can fill it up and stretch the floor.

Other than that, great post, agree with everything you said. Think Livingston will be a major player for us.
Good post.

Reeves has to prove himself, just like Grady did.

Also, Grady was at Davidson, which is in the A-10. That’s a step up from Illinois St., which is in the MVC.
 

DudahUK

Heisman
Jul 23, 2020
8,075
12,559
113
Grady was fine until his foot injury. He was not the same player late in the season. I thought he had lost confidence or something until I found out he had foot problems.
I think it was both. He lost confidence because of his injury. Sure would have loved a 100 percent healthy Grady last year. ****, just give us one healthy year for the whole team. Lol.
 

bucsrule8872

Heisman
May 30, 2005
24,397
29,352
0
I think it was both. He lost confidence because of his injury. Sure would have loved a 100 percent healthy Grady last year. ****, just give us one healthy year for the whole team. Lol.
I think we make the Sweet Sixteen at least with a healthy Grady.

And to me, Washington never looked the same after his injury.

100% healthy roster last year and we have a good shot at a Final Four appearance.
 

DudahUK

Heisman
Jul 23, 2020
8,075
12,559
113
I think we make the Sweet Sixteen at least with a healthy Grady.

And to me, Washington never looked the same after his injury.

100% healthy roster last year and we have a good shot at a Final Four appearance.
If we were healthy all year, we cut them down. We were a well oiled machine until injuries ****** us.
 
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mebeblue2

Heisman
Dec 20, 2009
98,152
10,574
0
31 percent is atrocious.
how many 3's do you think he will take a game?

let's say he averages 4 per game, that is 100 3's in 25 games
then the difference between 31% and 35% is four more made 3's in 25 games so just over 1 more made 3 every 6 games (rounded out)
just saying.............
 

DudahUK

Heisman
Jul 23, 2020
8,075
12,559
113
how many 3's do you think he will take a game?

let's say he averages 4 per game, that is 100 3's in 25 games
then the difference between 31% and 35% is four more made 3's in 25 games so just over 1 more made 3 every 6 games (rounded out)
just saying.............
I get what you are saying but teams rely heavily on stats and metrics and all that crazy ****. At least at first, it will define how other teams guard them.
 

bucsrule8872

Heisman
May 30, 2005
24,397
29,352
0
how many 3's do you think he will take a game?

let's say he averages 4 per game, that is 100 3's in 25 games
then the difference between 31% and 35% is four more made 3's in 25 games so just over 1 more made 3 every 6 games (rounded out)
just saying.............
The difference between 31% and 35% is an extra step closer to the 3 point line that the defender will play them after reading the scouting report. In college ball that means a lot.
 
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mebeblue2

Heisman
Dec 20, 2009
98,152
10,574
0
The difference between 31% and 35% is an extra step closer to the 3 point line that the defender will play them after reading the scouting report. In college ball that means a lot.
so you are saying at 31% you back off and let him shoot
but at 35% you take that extra step to prevent that extra 1 made 3 every 6 games
 
Oct 1, 2005
3,908
548
0
Good find. Where did the 33% from 3 number come from that everyone was throwing around?

If these numbers are correct, he should shoot pretty well in college, even if he takes a step back.

Encouraging stats. I have little qualms about him starting after seeing those numbers.
That was his Sophomore and Junior year , he shot 33% as a senior in hen he transferred to Oak hill. I was just putting the rest of his HS career for full disclosure.
 

bucsrule8872

Heisman
May 30, 2005
24,397
29,352
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That was his Sophomore and Junior year , he shot 33% as a senior in hen he transferred to Oak hill. I was just putting the rest of his HS career for full disclosure.
Thanks. Now I’m back to slightly concerned. The Oak Hill level of competition is closer to what he will see in college.

So back to square one.
 
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jauk11

Heisman
Dec 6, 2006
60,631
18,638
0
36 is more phenomenal then 31 is adequate. That’s like what Wheeler shot. Would you say he was a good shooter?
Does anyone else think some players will stay around for a second year with the NIL influence? Some of them were from really poor families before basketball gave them a leg up, some might be able to wait a year if their families aren't starving.
 
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