Tubby or Cal?

[cats#1again]

The end of Cal is and will be worse than Tubby. Cal has done things we could never have conceived of under Tubby

Like getting decent prospects .... That's the big one I agree.
Also have a strong Chance at the title most seasons. Tubby being the coach automatically made us know we weren't gonna get it done no matter how good our team was. Another one I agree with you on

 

[270to615]

I'm trying to be more understanding of some of my fellow UK fans and actually look Into what they are saying. Not just dismiss it because I believe the person to be an idiot. So I ask....
I want to know your way of thinking on our program being down since 2016-2017.
What happened in 2017 tournament that makes you believe we were a failure that season?

That was a fun, amazing team. Same with 2019. The problem though is that those seasons have become significant outliers when you examine the last 6 years as a whole. I can make 5 $100 bets and go 2-3 but that still means I'm a loser overall

Losses to lower seeds of Kansas State, Indiana, and St. Peter's in the tournament, embarrassing regular season losses to the likes of Evansville, and worst season in school history where they don't even make the tournament at all... that is why people are upset.

 

[natchezrule]

Both won a title and represented the school with 100% class. Great successs in the SEC regular season and tourney. Tubby 100% deserved his jersey being retired and Cal will too some day. UK was and is lucky to have both.

Don’t know about Cal. Class? Hmmmmmmm

 

[CatPhight_rivals65113]

Someone should make a graphic with last 2 seasons under Caipari compared to BCG's 2 years. There's obviously way more baggage on the BCG side but I bet the hard numbers are fairly similar

Ask and ye shall receive...

 

[sam_o]

Like getting decent prospects .... That's the big one I agree.
Also have a strong Chance at the title most seasons. Tubby being the coach automatically made us know we weren't gonna get it done no matter how good our team was. Another one I agree with you on

You love Cal, we get it. The numbers don’t lie. You can try to apologize for it in anyway you like. Tubby left with class and he knew it was time. Hopefully Cal will do the same in the near future.

 

[sam_o]

Ask and ye shall receive...

YIKES! That is alarming.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

What an ignorant post

Coming from you...ironic isn't a big enough word.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Ask and ye shall receive...

BCG with 5 more wins in that time frame than Cal. That is hilarious. A drunk got more wins than Cal. Wow.

 

[MEMEBLUE]

Give Tubby Cal's roster during his tenure and I guarantee he comes back with more than 1 title.

Tubby got fat and lazy and mailed it in when he got his big payday - sound familiar? The difference is Tubby could coach a team up in a game and make adjustments, whereas Cal is too ignorant and stubborn and gets outcoached on the big stage by far lesser names.

The same for Rick Pitino. He had it rolling at the end.

 

[travisbickle_rivals252984]

I guess it depends on if you prefer much higher highs and lower lows, or steady medium results.

After the 98 championship Tubby never made it back to a FF and maxed out at Elite 8s. We had Bobby Perry, Sheray Thomas, Lukasz Obrzut, etc starting lineups. He had to be a good X’s and O’s coach because minus the Rondo/Crawford class he had little elite talent. He earned the message board nickname 10 Loss Tubby.

He also never missed the tournament and never had to contend with one and done culture. The media environment and the state of college basketball is much different now.

Cal obviously has gone to more FFs and championship games, and even in the downward period here since 2015 he’s gotten back to two EEs, which was Tubby’s high water mark after 1998. He had exponentially more talent to work with because he recruited it. His coaching hasn’t been able to seal the deal with that talent gap since 2012.

IMO Cal has one season left and he and the university will find an exit strategy, probably the ambassador role, that minimizes damage and tries to set the next coach up as well as possible. Maybe two seasons if we get Wagner.

There will be years of debate after he leaves on what his final legacy will be. Until he’s gone it’s not a complete argument. All JMHO.

 

[CatPhight_rivals65113]

BCG with 5 more wins in that time frame than Cal. That is hilarious. A drunk got more wins than Cal. Wow.

That awkward time when the Cal cheerleaders aren't pimping "the numbers"...they probably haven't even looked at the numbers and are still reliving the 2012 season...wishing in one hand, while crapping in the other...

 

[270to615]

Ask and ye shall receive...

Makes you wonder why BCG didn’t get a lifetime contract too

 

[Pulaski Cat Fan_rivals377587]

YIKES! That is alarming.

Even more alarming is paying 9 million a year for it. Mitch sure knows how to sign them contracts .

 

[cats#1again]

That was a fun, amazing team. Same with 2019. The problem though is that those seasons have become significant outliers when you examine the last 6 years as a whole. I can make 5 $100 bets and go 2-3 but that still means I'm a loser overall

Losses to lower seeds of Kansas State, Indiana, and St. Peter's in the tournament, embarrassing regular season losses to the likes of Evansville, and worst season in school history where they don't even make the tournament at all... that is why people are upset.

Yes, I understand what you're saying on all of it. I was wanting maybe some of them to break it down individually for a second...
2017 lost on buzzer beater
2018. Was a young team that just wasn't good enough in the end. Missed a ton of free throws that game and juvenile go to guys.
2019 Really good team that lost by 1 pt in ot to go to a final 4. Pj was one of our more versatile forwards we've had at UK in years.
2020 was looking like a team to make another strong run in the tournament . IQ had taken his game to a dif level and was very impressive. Nick Richards became something most of our fans thought wouldn't be possible. Hagans got loose at the very end and the season was called off.

So at this point the only thing wrong was we didn't make a final 4 every year. I mean really, that's it. That's a pretty dang good stretch other than our fans believe we should make a final 4 every season. Nobody is or has ever been as good as what our fans believe us to be. You have down years, you just do. 2018 wasn't great how it ended, because we were young and not good enough.
The next year we were good enough and one whistle away from a final 4. A coin flip when it comes to who the refs are.

Now since 2021 season started I am with you, it's been a rough year and this one ended the same way, unacceptable. But saying weve been a dumpster fire for 6 years is nothing but being an unrealistic fan

 

[Fast3ddy88]

Tubby never missed a tournament, Tubby never had the worst record in school history, Tubby never lost to a 15 seed as a two seed, tubby knew when to call timeouts, and Tubby could make in game adjustments.

 

[Pulaski Cat Fan_rivals377587]

Tubby never missed a tournament, Tubby never had the worst record in school history, Tubby never lost to a 15 seed as a two seed, tubby knew when to call timeouts, and Tubby could make in game adjustments.

And Tubby knew how to defend the inbounds underneath the basket.

 

[270to615]

BCG with 5 more wins in that time frame than Cal. That is hilarious. A drunk got more wins than Cal. Wow.

What makes it even funnier is that Cal has had 5 star players while BCG was trotting out the likes of Michael Porter, Derrick Jasper, Ramon Harris, Mark Coury, and a GD Morakinyo Williams

 

[JoeSwag]

@CatPhight I just want to say I appreciate your talent at photoshop. I know it's not easy and you do it well.

 

[Fast3ddy88]

Derrick Jasper… Jesus that’s a blast from the past.

 

[Pulaski Cat Fan_rivals377587]

What makes it even funnier is that Cal has had 5 star players while BCG was trotting out the likes of Michael Porter, Derrick Jasper, Ramon Harris, Mark Coury, and a GD Morakinyo Williams

Billy Clyde was the better bench coach, but in all honesty, I think my neighbor would be a better bench coach than Cal, and my neighbor is a car salesman.

 

[cats#1again]

You love Cal, we get it. The numbers don’t lie. You can try to apologize for it in anyway you like. Tubby left with class and he knew it was time. Hopefully Cal will do the same in the near future.

I don't love any coach. Sure not cal the way things have been the last 18 months. Tubby didn't leave on his own. They gave the man an option of leave or be fired and only because he won a title here.
Tubby had turned into a joke in recruiting at the end of his time here.

 

[sam_o]

Yes, I understand what you're saying on all of it. I was wanting maybe some of them to break it down individually for a second...
2017 lost on buzzer beater
2018. Was a young team that just wasn't good enough in the end. Missed a ton of free throws that game and juvenile go to guys.
2019 Really good team that lost by 1 pt in ot to go to a final 4. Pj was one of our more versatile forwards we've had at UK in years.
2020 was looking like a team to make another strong run in the tournament . IQ had taken his game to a dif level and was very impressive. Nick Richards became something most of our fans thought wouldn't be possible. Hagans got loose at the very end and the season was called off.

So at this point the only thing wrong was we didn't make a final 4 every year. I mean really, that's it. That's a pretty dang good stretch other than our fans believe we should make a final 4 every season. Nobody is or has ever been as good as what our fans believe us to be. You have down years, you just do. 2018 wasn't great how it ended, because we were young and not good enough.
The next year we were good enough and one whistle away from a final 4. A coin flip when it comes to who the refs are.

Now since 2021 season started I am with you, it's been a rough year and this one ended the same way, unacceptable. But saying weve been a dumpster fire for 6 years is nothing but being an unrealistic fan

A final four every year? That is what people are complaining about? We haven’t been to the final four since 2015. If UK fans or administration expected a final four every year he would have been out on his all powerful *** a long time ago.

If it’s not clear to you that we have been falling since 2015, I can’t say anything that will make sense to you. 2017 was a good team but again, didn’t get it done.

 

[know1]

I guess it depends on if you prefer much higher highs and lower lows, or steady medium results.

After the 98 championship Tubby never made it back to a FF and maxed out at Elite 8s. We had Bobby Perry, Sheray Thomas, Lukasz Obrzut, etc starting lineups. He had to be a good X’s and O’s coach because minus the Rondo/Crawford class he had little elite talent. He earned the message board nickname 10 Loss Tubby.

He also never missed the tournament and never had to contend with one and done culture. The media environment and the state of college basketball is much different now.

Cal obviously has gone to more FFs and championship games, and even in the downward period here since 2015 he’s gotten back to two EEs, which was Tubby’s high water mark after 1998. He had exponentially more talent to work with because he recruited it. His coaching hasn’t been able to seal the deal with that talent gap since 2012.

IMO Cal has one season left and he and the university will find an exit strategy, probably the ambassador role, that minimizes damage and tries to set the next coach up as well as possible. Maybe two seasons if we get Wagner.

There will be years of debate after he leaves on what his final legacy will be. Until he’s gone it’s not a complete argument. All JMHO.

There was a three year stretch, though, where UK was the winningest program in college basketball under Tubby. He just didn't make it to the Final Four during those years, though. He was real close, though.

 

[sam_o]

I don't love any coach. Sure not cal the way things have been the last 18 months. Tubby didn't leave on his own. They gave the man an option of leave or be fired and only because he won a title here.
Tubby had turned into a joke in recruiting at the end of his time here.

I was ready for Tubby to go at the end of his time here also. Same with Cal. The cake is baked and sometimes it’s best to call it for what it is. Cal has done a very good job here overall and I hope he doesn’t hang around too long and ruin that.

 

[kyhoward]

Agree 100% with know1 and CatPhight. IMO, Tubby and Cal have completely different approaches. Tubby tried to put together a veteran TEAM with most freshman contributing, but not the main focus. He could draw up a play before halftime or after a timeout and they seemed to work the majority of the time. He was a throwback to the successful coaches of old Who wanted basketball players who could master the fundamentals of dribbling, passing, shooting, and rebounding. If they happened to be athletic, great and his record the last 5 years at UK is proof of his success.

CCC does not believe in building a TEAM but collecting athletes and letting them Play. He wants athletes that he thinks he can mold into basketball players. Runs little offense but implores his players to “go make a play.” This approach works when his teams play hard-nose defense and run after getting a rebound But is exposed in a half court game. Believes that the players are more important than the program. So he creates in a players mind that the most important thing is to be the best version of himself. We will win because my players are crazy athletic, just get the shot up on the backboard and rebound it again and again until it goes in. It is ironic that Oscar, while not the most athletic, used his talents and fundamentals to become the best player in the country. I will admit that he ran the court at lightening speed for his size.

Tubby did not have to rebuild from scratch every year as CCC has had to do because of his philosophy. Players that have come here and succeeded ( which means to CCC have graduated to the NBA) probably love Cal. But how many 4 or 5 stars have come to UK and not set the world on fire their first year and transferred or put their name in the draft and went nowhere. I saw somewhere the definition of a good coach. He can take his’n and beat your’n and take your’n and beat his’n! Tubby is a great example of a good coach, CCC NOT!!

 

[CatPhight_rivals65113]

There was a three year stretch, though, where UK was the winningest program in college basketball under Tubby. He just didn't make it to the Final Four during those years, though. He was real close, though.

True...perfect in conference and the number one #1 seed but blew it against UAB...

 

[AllBall]

Cal supported his players. Good for him. And to say Tubby should shut up and coach, I think we both see what that means

If a "cause" is so great and important then how come they haven't used their NIL to promote said cause?
I'll tell u why, because it has a direct impact on their financial well-being. Guess it wasn't that important.

 

[sam_o]

What makes it even funnier is that Cal has had 5 star players while BCG was trotting out the likes of Michael Porter, Derrick Jasper, Ramon Harris, Mark Coury, and a GD Morakinyo Williams

Mark Coury! Man I had forgotten about that guy lol

Oh and hey, that’s Mike Williams to you, pal! His friends call him Morakinyo

 

[kentuckycriedfricken]

Someone should make a graphic with last 2 seasons under Caipari compared to BCG's 2 years. There's obviously way more baggage on the BCG side but I bet the hard numbers are fairly similar

I believe LowCountryCat did that thread already. He caught a lot of grief for it too.

 

[Pulaski Cat Fan_rivals377587]

Mark Coury! Man I had forgotten about that guy lol

Oh and hey, that’s Mike Williams to you, pal! His friends call him Morakinyo

Coury looked like a beefed up Napoleon Dynamite.

 

[JoeSwag]

Mark Coury! Man I had forgotten about that guy lol

Oh and hey, that’s Mike Williams to you, pal! His friends call him Morakinyo

Ole Mike Williams, the guy whose final two choices were American University or Kentucky.

Ramon Harris, Portland State or Kentucky.

Some kid I can't remember---choosing prep academy over Kentucky.

Then we had the Billy G years following where we were losing out to Hawaii (to be fair, I absolutely would have chosen Hawaii over us in 2008).

 

[Pulaski Cat Fan_rivals377587]

Ole Mike Williams, the guy whose final two choices were American University or Kentucky.

Ramon Harris, Portland State or Kentucky.

Some kid I can't remember---choosing prep academy over Kentucky.

Then we had the Billy G years following where we were losing out to Hawaii (to be fair, I absolutely would have chosen Hawaii over us in 2008).

Who in their right mind would go all the way to Alaska to scout Ramon Harris? Man could have frequented the local YMCAs and found more talent.

 

[sam_o]

Ole Mike Williams, the guy whose final two choices were American University or Kentucky.

Ramon Harris, Portland State or Kentucky.

Some kid I can't remember---choosing prep academy over Kentucky.

Then we had the Billy G years following where we were losing out to Hawaii (to be fair, I absolutely would have chosen Hawaii over us in 2008).

Billy G was a disaster lol

 

[JoeSwag]

Who in their right mind would go all the way to Alaska to scout Ramon Harris? Man could have frequented the local YMCAs and found more talent.

Ramon Harris was terrible. I cannot believe that guy got a roster spot. He and Perry Stevenson were both awful. That 2008 roster has to be the worst roster talent wise post probation years.

My first NCAA tourney game I got to see Kentucky play was in 2008 as an 11th seed. Look how many minutes the following guys got.

Perry Stevenson 34 minutes (4-6) 12 points
Ramon Harris 22 minutes (0-0) 0 points
Michael Porter 22 minutes (0-1) 2 points
Derrick Jasper 40 minutes (0-3) 0 points

 

[know1]

The biggest thing for me is that I actually BELIEVED Tubby and his teams were playing and working for KENTUCKY first. That makes me excited about the team and invested in everything that happens.

I haven't believed in much related to Cal and a lot of his players for at least 4 years now. That makes me mostly disinterested in the team I've loved most of my life.

 

[fadkins82476]

Remember, the NIT loss, 9-16, and the first round exit all happened under one dude's watch and it's not OTS

 

[P. Fanning]

Tubby always had the fire in his belly to coach, produce quality people and represent the school with class. He didn't like the recruiting aspect of it and the UK tradition/name wasn't as big of a recruiting tool like it had been. Of course Tubby didnt believe in hundred dollar handshakes or seedy World Wide Wes types funneling players to him.

Tubby knew it was time to move on and so off he went to Minnesota.

 

[CB3UK]

I've said this before on here, and yeah, I remember Tubby's last two teams. The post 2005 Michigan State 2OT loss.

I still liked Woo, Bobby Perry, Sheray Thomas, Ramel and Joe. Those were some damn good memories. I'm not even saying that means I think ill of some of the guys we've had here the past few seasons. 2021 lets be real....a lot of unlikeable. But Oscar is as beloved a Wildcat as I've ever known in my 38 yrs. On the whole though, I had a love and affinity for the players on those final Tubby teams that with the lone exception of Oscar, none of these guys have come close to meeting. A guy like Dontaie COULD get there if he'd stayed, but we're not gonna get into that here. What's done is done.

That paragraph is a bit off of my actual point, which is: Forget the actual numbers. Say Cal's last, 2, 3 4, 5, 6 7.......whatever years you want to toss out there, his results and Tubby's results were exactly the same. To me it comes down to those intangibles like I mentioned above. If we're gonna lose 10 games a year and not win the SEC and lose in embarassing fashion to rivals and in the tournament, I'd rather do it Tubby's way. I actually gave a **** about those guys. And its harsh to say that, but when these guy are in and out the door, I mean how long do I have to sit here and pretend like I truly care? "But won't someone think about the children!!! That's someone's son out there!! You can't root against the children!!!" Well, no. I'm not hating on them or wishing them ill will or anything of the sort. I get it. Times have changed and guys are making decision in their future interest. That's absolutely OK. But don't expect me as a fan to develop an emotional attachment because they were here for 6 months and dipped out to the NBA. I truly could not care less about the NBA. So whether they are succesful there or not does nothing for me.

Say what you will about Tubby ball, I personally found it infinitely more enjoyable than Cal's run and go make a play stand around and drive into traffic offense. The facts are it was time for Tubby to part, and it's the same for Cal even if that isn't going to happen thanks to an absurd contract written out of fear.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Ramon Harris was terrible. I cannot believe that guy got a roster spot. He and Perry Stevenson were both awful. That 2008 roster has to be the worst roster talent wise post probation years.

My first NCAA tourney game I got to see Kentucky play was in 2008 as an 11th seed. Look how many minutes the following guys got.

Perry Stevenson 34 minutes (4-6) 12 points
Ramon Harris 22 minutes (0-0) 0 points
Michael Porter 22 minutes (0-1) 2 points
Derrick Jasper 40 minutes (0-3) 0 points

BCG was ahead of Cal in playing non-productive guys for extended minutes. Who knew BCG was who Cal patterned himself after?

 

[know1]

I've said this before on here, and yeah, I remember Tubby's last two teams. The post 2005 Michigan State 2OT loss.

I still liked Woo, Bobby Perry, Sheray Thomas, Ramel and Joe. Those were some damn good memories. I'm not even saying that means I think ill of some of the guys we've had here the past few seasons. 2021 lets be real....a lot of unlikeable. But Oscar is as beloved a Wildcat as I've ever known in my 38 yrs. On the whole though, I had a love and affinity for the players on those final Tubby teams that with the lone exception of Oscar, none of these guys have come close to meeting. A guy like Dontaie COULD get there if he'd stayed, but we're not gonna get into that here. What's done is done.

That paragraph is a bit off of my actual point, which is: Forget the actual numbers. Say Cal's last, 2, 3 4, 5, 6 7.......whatever years you want to toss out there, his results and Tubby's results were exactly the same. To me it comes down to those intangibles like I mentioned above. If we're gonna lose 10 games a year and not win the SEC and lose in embarassing fashion to rivals and in the tournament, I'd rather do it Tubby's way. I actually gave a **** about those guys. And its harsh to say that, but when these guy are in and out the door, I mean how long do I have to sit here and pretend like I truly care? "But won't someone think about the children!!! That's someone's son out there!! You can't root against the children!!!" Well, no. I'm not hating on them or wishing them ill will or anything of the sort. I get it. Times have changed and guys are making decision in their future interest. That's absolutely OK. But don't expect me as a fan to develop an emotional attachment because they were here for 6 months and dipped out to the NBA. I truly could not care less about the NBA. So whether they are succesful there or not does nothing for me.

Say what you will about Tubby ball, I personally found it infinitely more enjoyable than Cal's run and go make a play stand around and drive into traffic offense. The facts are it was time for Tubby to part, and it's the same for Cal even if that isn't going to happen thanks to an absurd contract written out of fear.

Very similar to what I was thinking and trying to say above.