Education, or at least college credentials, are still out of whack. It's basically things that are highly subject to baumol's cost disease and highly regulated are really expensive. Things that are not have gotten cheaper with innovation. Unfortunate because most people want the government most involved in things they see as important, so three of the most important things are more expensive.
Young, Dumb, and Broke
- Thread starter The Cooterpoot
- Start date
I was going to make this point before getting distracted, but just like tons of statistics about US states, it's basically just a proxy for demographics if you don't adjust to control for them.Women and black Americans have the highest student loan default rates. White male and Asian males have the lowest. I agree that too many Americans are attending college, loans are too easy to get and university profs and admins have an incentive to enroll and retain students to keep the gravy train going.
Student Loan Debt by Gender [2026]: Men vs Women
An analysis of student loan debt by gender and sex, including male and female as well as transgender and gender variant student borrowers.educationdata.org
I suspect if you control for demographics we're probably pretty average among states. Unfortunately there is probably a negative selection bias where more capable students with marketable skills are more likely to leave the state for job opportunities after college, which would put upward pressure on default rates, but on the other hand, if you go to four years of state college in Mississippi, you still shouldn't have that big of a loan balance unless you really did some stupid stuff, so that probably helps put downward pressure on default rates.
That is true, but it's also relevant to ask what does the average person do. Your son had a father help him renovate a house. Many don't. You can certainly learn a ton from Youtube, but probably don't need to be jumping into a whole house renovation if you're of average intelligence and are relying on youtube. And with respect to your second sone, most people in their 20's can't realistically get a job where they can save $90k over two years even if they're living at home. The median personal income is only $45k (of all ages, not people in their 20's), so they're not saving $90k in two years even if their parents pay for everything.
Those average people need a path too, and we've made it harder than it needs to be by making housing and healthcare expensive.
He made his own decision. He didn't base it all on what I said. He looked at it and didn't see the value in it. He loves working on cars and that's what he wanted to do. Yeah, he could have gone to CC to get a degree, but he had on the job training without any student debt. I work for a 23-billion-dollar company. Many of our agents don't have any college and they are some of the highest paid people in their counties. You don't need a degree to become wealthy.
This is probably the best argument for men and women. Huge for assortative mating. Even if you don't go to college for the experience and to meet your potential spouse in college, for men, there are still going to be plenty of women that filter you out based on a lack of degree, so might as well get a degree one way or another. Even if it's night courses through JUCO and then a satellite campus at a decent school (I'm assuming University of Phoenix online doesn't work for assortative mating purposes)
The small but vocal group of SPS folk who continually beat the 'coege is a scam and rip off!' drum is so damn entertaining.
You want people to teach but not take out loans to get the degree?!
That's unrealistic and 17ing absurd.
You want people to be psychiatrists but not take out loans to get the degree?
That's unrealistic and 17ing absurd.
JUCO can be a great way to keep costs low...but people are then still needing loans for their degree, or for their grad degree.
A law degree from a private college can be an incredibly smart investment. It can also be a weight that drags you down.
Nothing you said actually addresses the reality that whether ROI is good or not will depend on what the person does with the degree(s).
Claiming in a blanket statement that a degree is good or bad is simple thinking. Basic as 17.
Teachers make $43,500 their first year in Mississippi without a local supplement. If they go to MSU all four years, work to cover living expenses, and borrow 100% of tuition less MTAG, they should end up with debt roughly around their first year salary, maybe a little more with accrued interest and a limited local supplement. That's not the smartest financial move, but it's fine. But you also can work for ten years as a teacher and have it forgiven after paying relatively little, under $20k total most likely.
I think most people are excluding medical docctors when talking about taking on debt. Psychiatrists are a relatively low paying specialty I believe but are still going to pull down a few hundred thousand.
Most student loan debt is pretty risky. Even if you are a good bet, it ties your hands. If you go to an expensive private law school, you better pursue a high paying practice or you better work for the government for ten years and pursue forgiveness. Not the worst thing, but would kind of suck doing work you hate for til you're 35 (at least) b/c you need the PSLF. If you go to a relatively cheap state school (although lots of state law schools are not really cheaper anymore), you have a lot more flexibility.
We are average. We just believe in hard work and family. My wife and I have stayed together and all of us support each other going forward. Average people can choose to do that. To say otherwise is excusing bad decisions and a lack of discipline to do the difficult things. It's not about what I can get today and it's not all about any one of us. It's about building over a generation for the next one and providing a blueprint for them to build theirs.
No one that I know has worked more than they have but that's the model I showed and it's what I expect. Your excuses diminish those that work hard. Most of the young adults I see play games at night and know all the current TV series from watching every night. They could be working for something instead.
A Lot of ”students” take out loans and grants, enroll in school, buy a bunch of crap, then drop out without any intention of paying loan back.
If you take out $80k to be a 2nd grade teacher and will drag that around along with a $300k starter house at 7% and a 40k toyota car at 7% for 6 years it is absolutely terrible ROI and you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. You're being a douchebag just to be a douchebag.
And if you're from MS and you go out of state for a private JD when you could have gotten in to OM or MC law for a fraction of the cost, that is also a terrible investment. This isn't complicated. Students need to eval what they're borrowing vs what the salary likely will be.
As someone that pissed away his employed life, I invested in my kids. I didn't have anyone do that for me, and I regret a lot now. Invest in your kids and push them hard. Make sure they know to chase their dreams and what dreams are more mirage than dream.
Of course people need to evaluate the costs and compare those to potential future earnings.
My oldest was accepted to University of Chicago. Due to income, it would have been full tuition. Due to demand, it would have been full tuition.
$85k/year for undergrad would have been dumb for her to pay...so she declined.
This isn't a revolutionary idea- weighing cost vs potential perceived value is not new.
It also isn't your initial point that I disagreed with. You called the ROI on college a scam for most degrees. That is a completely different argument compared to 'well people should evaluate potential salary vs cost of education'.
Those are totally different arguments. One is reasonable and the other is baseless and unhinged.
Also unhinged is your rambling that suddenly included a $40k Toyota and a $300k home. Those are variables that are way outside the conversation...which is college education cost.
Adding in hypothetical costs that have nothing to do with the point is lame.
I personally know 3 guys under the age of 30 that make over $100k/year. All three have blue collar jobs. One went to work after attending an affordable trade school, one was hired while in trade school and his employer paid him back for what he had already paid and paid the rest of his tuition. One is a plumber that went to work for a plumbing company right out of high school. none of them came from money, two of them had serious odds stacked against them early on. What made them so successful? They are reliable and work hard. If you do those things, employers will pay for your education, trade school or college. Welcome to America.
I know a 35 year old master plumber who is making north of 200K in Mississippi. And he's slowly building his plumbing company from just himself into 4-5 plumbers on staff. At his rate of growth, he'll be a millionaire by age 40 and never had a 4 yr degree. I'm not even sure he went to Jr. College. Just a trade school and that's it.
This example, and others like it, are just so glaringly dishonest in discussion about whether college is worth it or not.
I don’t think I have ever heard or read anyone claim it is impossible to become wealthy without a degree.
Citing some anonymous firsthand example of someone having a good income without a college degree doesn’t prove anything because that was never a serious claim that needed disproving.
My wife and I were just talking yesterday about how glad we are that we don’t have any student loans. I rode the GI Bill until I figured out college wasn’t for me and dropped out. She went the JUCO route to become a rad tech. The sad thing is, we earn well into the six figure world and it just doesn’t friggin feel like it. I swear on my life, if you had told 18 year old me that my wife and I would be making what we are making right now and feeling like we couldn’t get ahead, I would have laughed you out of sight. I honestly don’t know what my kids are going to do without some kind of hard economic reset.
Two things that will weigh on you more than anything in life:
1. Debt
2. Regret
Worthless degrees and false ideas lead to both.
1. Debt
2. Regret
Worthless degrees and false ideas lead to both.
Where I used to live, I’d play poker with a lot of guys who owned or worked businesses like landscaping, irrigation, general contracting, etc. They all did fine. What was interesting was that their kids seemed sharp and played poker too, and when I asked them what they were going to do after high school, it’d be stuff like “I’m just going to trade NFTs, I’m doing pretty well.” And I was like “Yeahhhhh, good luck with that.” Now one of them just won the World Series of poker main event so there are exceptions
The main problem is kids think at age 25 they are suppose to have the same things their parents of 55 age have. They can’t comprehend that it took them 35 years to get what they have. If the parents get a new car the kids think they should get one. They think nothing of getting the latest phone instead of keeping theirs till it stops or buying a used model.
No matter how much things change over time, common sense, critical thinking skills and hard work will get you ahead. This was true 100 years ago and is still true today. The path may include a 4-year degree, a trade school, or going straight into the workforce given the right set of circumstances. Those 3 things won't guarantee you to be a millionaire by the time you turn 40, but you will be better off. I can also say those 3 things will most likely not guide you down the path of taking out student loans to get a gender studies degree.
Let me invent a scenario that rarely happens to most people to defend my opinion.
Anyway, a college degree is a ticket to the middle class for American women. They aren't going to trade school. Women with college degrees who have their shite together prefer marrying a man with a college degree. The vast majority of college degrees have a good ROI. And you get to work indoors with air conditioning. You don't see Republican politicians who bash college sending their kids to trade school. Men with only high school degrees are less likely to get married and have a stable family as an adult. They're more likely than college grads to become drug addicts and alcoholics and experience long periods of isolation and loneliness. But, trade school is a good choice for some. Hell I wish we had more plumbers and appliance repairmen too (my electrician friend has an indoor swimming pool, but of course he's an exception). Junior colleges are a good choice to get rid of gen ed courses and we're beginning to see universities try 90--hour degrees (Europe does this). Universites are too expensive and do offer some degrees with limited marketability. Demographic change and states demanding accountability are changing this, especially for regional universities. The American university system, especially the system of land-grant colleges, is one of the greatest innovations in the modern age.
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Let me give you a real scenario. My wife did juco for basics & then a bsn at a state university. Graduated w/$20k in debt. Immediately made $70k and now makes 6-figs with basically free insurance. Thats a smart way to do it. Way smarter than taking out $80k to get a music degree from MSU. That music person will always be a financial detriment to themselves or who they marry based on simple economics. They need a savior. You can spin that any way you want but it’s the truth.
I know a music major who is a band director married to a hot wife who gave him two kids. See how that works. Anecdotes and a single data point isn't going to work with me when studies using multivariate analysis show otherwise. Of course people can do well going to junior college and trade school and of course going deeply in debt to earn a degree with limited marketability isn't a wise move. D'uh.
You just proved the point. He needed a savior. The chart in op shows how many people are defaulting and yall are arguing that these degrees are worth it. If you can’t pay the loan, it wasn’t worth it. The logical point is be smart with loans/career choice and consider ROI. You guys arguing against that is absurd.
Have you seen the luxury apartment living in college towns? Its done some serious damage.
I have a friend who told me they are paying $1300/month for a condo in Starkville. Their part of a 3 BR that is $3900/month + utilities.
And look throughout this thread. You see several post saying something to the effect of “just teach or work for the state and get them forgiven after 10 years”. Forgiven doesn’t mean forgiven, it means taxpayers paid your loans. If your career of choice may it be (teaching, social, etc…) requires a loan you cannot reasonably pay off and the best path is have someone else pay it for you, then yes, that is a scam.
Forgiven means forgiven. You don't owe it anymore. That's what forgiven means. Taxpayers pay for K-12 teacher salaries. Does that mean it's a scam and it's not really a salary? We need K-12 teachers. A college degree is a pre-requisite for the job. Nothing wrong with an incentive from the government. Are mortgages a scam because you can deduct the interest on taxes? Medicare and Social Security must be scams too.
If it doesn't affect me directly, it's a scam **********
In all seriousness, that's how people think. And even in areas that the general populace thinks is needed (like say, schools), there's always debate. Generally, the lower paid jobs, like teachers, people tolerate. But get an administrator making a little more, whoa, ThAtS a ScAm!!!1111
That's why politicians are always talking about the working man, etc. Poor people. They know they are no threat to them.
Govt gets involved in loaning money for college. The cost of college explodes. Degrees for low paying govt jobs aren’t smart investments. To offset that, the government will use tax dollars to pay off the loan you can’t because they artificially made the cost explode. This isn’t complicated. That is the literal definition of what a scam is.
Medicare & Medicare are absolutely loaded with scams and fraud. Just Google it.
Single teachers damn near cant make it without a 2nd or 3rd job. A buddy teachers, Ubers, & officiates. Some friends who are married and both teachers have a small lawn company he does on weekends to supplement. Ask any teacher you know. What are we even doing here?
^^^ THIS. My parents tried but didn't have the background to really help me achieve fiscally.
My wife and I have always stressed being responsible with their money to my kids, and performing evaluations of ROI on everything they do. As a result all my kids have eschewed credit cards and high percentage loans, have attended low-cost schools (with scholarships) and favored working their way through instead of racking up debt so they could party and 'experience the college lifestyle.'
This is not rocket surgery - it's basic fiscal calculation along with the understanding that my last name ain't Rockefeller or Musk and if they want to achieve more than I have they need to start young and stay smart.
You wrote; The ROI for college is a scam for most degrees with the cost of college today. There is absolute zero reason to take out loans for 4-5 years on elementary education, basic business, history, poly sci, psych, etc…
This is simply not true. It isn't a scam for most degrees (your words). I'm guessing there are actually no studies showing most degrees are a scam. FYI, I took out loans in one of those fields you mentioned and I'm comfortably a millionaire with a great retirement when i'm ready and who attracted a talented, smart woman to marry and have kids with.
Not sure why people don't make more nuanced arguments. Most people who understand the importance of a university and a college degree know that you shouldn't borrow too much money to earn a degree with a limited ROI unless you're rich. For most people, college is a worthwhile investment and offers benefits in addition to employment opportunities. Some do borrow too much, no one is arguing against this, and some irresponsibly don't pay back loans or simply pay off the interest monthly. Treating college debt like other debt, having it dischargeable in bankruptcy, might solve this.Putting universities on the hook for some of the debt might be beneficial as well.
This is simply not true. It isn't a scam for most degrees (your words). I'm guessing there are actually no studies showing most degrees are a scam. FYI, I took out loans in one of those fields you mentioned and I'm comfortably a millionaire with a great retirement when i'm ready and who attracted a talented, smart woman to marry and have kids with.
Not sure why people don't make more nuanced arguments. Most people who understand the importance of a university and a college degree know that you shouldn't borrow too much money to earn a degree with a limited ROI unless you're rich. For most people, college is a worthwhile investment and offers benefits in addition to employment opportunities. Some do borrow too much, no one is arguing against this, and some irresponsibly don't pay back loans or simply pay off the interest monthly. Treating college debt like other debt, having it dischargeable in bankruptcy, might solve this.Putting universities on the hook for some of the debt might be beneficial as well.
"Everything they do?" I did not perform an ROI evaluation of the tailgate I attended on Saturday. I just brought food and beer and enjoyed my time. Actually, that was a great but a bit expensive, return on my investment.
Are you arguing that salaries for k-12 teachers should be increased dramatically?
So you think today, not 30 years ago when you graduated, taking out $80k on a lower wage potential career, is a good idea? That is the whole point. Some responsible parents, like me, started 529s for their kids when they were born and they can do whatever they want in college but that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about kids who have to take out loans on the whole thing. The point is simple: in today’s world, with the price of housing, groceries, etc… you are a damn fool to 100% finance a degree that doesn’t have a path to high wages. You have to be smart & not get scammed by signing your life away at 18. Arguing the price of college isn’t too high is asinine but you feel personally triggered because I said your major. What you just laid out about being able to have your career, family, & a million bucks (congrats) is much less likely TODAY for a kid graduating HS this year. Your argument is no different than the boomers telling kids to stop buying coffee. Times have changed and it’s worse for them. They are getting 17ing robbed.
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