Why was platooning in 2015 so bad for the program?

[logiUK]

Exactly. "The Platoon" did not last much after the Poythress injury. So for over 1/2 the season we went with a 9-man rotation, but actually more like an 8-man, since Lee last 18 games averaged only 8.5mpg.

They still had Hawkins and Willis on the bench. You mean you couldn't hide Hawkins or Willis within that group among 9 other talented players?

The platoon worked. But incoming recruits saw it as a detriment to their NBA ambitions and that's why it was abandoned. Recruits didn't care a lick about winning at Kentucky, they just wanted to be able to showcase themselves to be a higher NBA draft pick, that's all they are interested in.

If a recruit can't understand that they will be a part of a 10 man rotation/platoon that will ultimately help the team to win. If he had rather be assured of his 38 minutes per game so he can raise his NBA stock. Then is that really the type of player you want?

This culture is what's wrong with Kentucky basketball. And all of the power conference basketball. None of the players/recruit care a thing about helping their college team win. They're just interested in the NBA. College is nothing more than a "I have to play here for one year" routine for them.

 

[JPScott]

If a recruit can't understand that they will be a part of a 10 man rotation/platoon that will ultimately help the team to win. If he had rather be assured of his 38 minutes per game so he can raise his NBA stock. Then is that really the type of player you want?

The ironic thing is that once they get to the NBA they'll be part of a 10 man rotation/platoon for the large majority of the season.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

They still had Hawkins and Willis on the bench. You mean you couldn't hide Hawkins or Willis within that group among 9 other talented players?

The platoon worked. But incoming recruits saw it as a detriment to their NBA ambitions and that's why it was abandoned. Recruits didn't care a lick about winning at Kentucky, they just wanted to be able to showcase themselves to be a higher NBA draft pick, that's all they are interested in.

If a recruit can't understand that they will be a part of a 10 man rotation/platoon that will ultimately help the team to win. If he had rather be assured of his 38 minutes per game so he can raise his NBA stock. Then is that really the type of player you want?

This culture is what's wrong with Kentucky basketball. And all of the power conference basketball. None of the players/recruit care a thing about helping their college team win. They're just interested in the NBA. College is nothing more than a "I have to play here for one year" routine for them.

The Platoon was great. Until the Poythress injury.
Lee was a weak link at #10, but 9 of the 10 deserved 15+mpg. But with the Poythress injury, then you had 2 weak links. And if you played them together, that group of 5 (Ulis, Booker, Willis/Hawk, Lee, Johnson) would have probably struggled to score and been mediocre.

No one plays 38mpg. Oscar last year, the NPOY, played 32pmg. And during our Platoon year we had 2 guys at 26mpg, & 2 more at 25. Towns was the #1 pick at 21mpg (7th in minutes).

What recruits saw is the money that the shoe companies were using to push them to other schools.
Yet we still added the following year #1, #9 & #10 guys.
And the year after that the #6, #7, #9, #13 & #24 guys (Rivals rankings).
I don't see trouble recruiting looking at those 2 classes.

 

[morehorsepower4UKbb]

Was it used against us? I’m sure it was.

No I think it hurt us? No, I don’t think it was the biggest factor, but it may have contributed.
Why? 4 of those guys were lottery picks. Also, in the next 2 classes we added several top recruits, Skal, Murray, Briscoe, Fox, Bam, Monk, Gabriel.

I think the bigger factor was the shoe companies diverting recruits with $ to other certain schools because we didn’t want to “play ball”.

I think the loss of World Wide Wes is greatly underestimated.

 

[morehorsepower4UKbb]

Except it didn't, at least with the players on the team. Platoons worked when they were used. I don't know that there were any issues with playing time that caused a problem inside the team. The problem IMO was Cal went away from using platoons later in the season.

It likely caused issues with some recruits, but again I think the players already on the team were for the most part fine with it.

They were and what a recruiting tool- and I dont believe it hurt recruiting. That was a different problem.
As far as platoons - I think Cal is the kind of guy that if he tries something new and it works, he will never stop doing it no matter how many times it fails him afterwards. And if he tries something newand he views the outcome as a failure, then he will never try it again no matter how much it might help him.
But I don't know him personally. Just 30 years of watching his habits.

 

[HeelVol]

The Platoon was great. Until the Poythress injury.
Lee was a weak link at #10, but 9 of the 10 deserved 15+mpg. But with the Poythress injury, then you had 2 weak links. And if you played them together, that group of 5 (Ulis, Booker, Willis/Hawk, Lee, Johnson) would have probably struggled to score and been mediocre.

No one plays 38mpg. Oscar last year, the NPOY, played 32pmg. And during our Platoon year we had 2 guys at 26mpg, & 2 more at 25. Towns was the #1 pick at 21mpg (7th in minutes).

What recruits saw is the money that the shoe companies were using to push them to other schools.
Yet we still added the following year #1, #9 & #10 guys.
And the year after that the #6, #7, #9, #13 & #24 guys (Rivals rankings).
I don't see trouble recruiting looking at those 2 classes.

If Booker and Towns weren't leading in minutes, no wonder opposing coaches sold negative info (right or wrong). They're the most talented from the start and each are now 250+ million richer. It's like when y'all UK fans made fun of UNC and how Dean Smith "held" MJ to sub 20 ppg.
Don't blame opposing coaches (the spin or reality just to compete)...or Cal (success breeds unreasonable expectations).

 

[bigblueinsanity_rivals250340]

Kominsky (sp) owned WCS

Bookers man owned him. Dekker was playing maybe his best ever. Twins we'rent getting anything done down the stretch. Refs screwed us with an atrocious no shot clock violation. It took alot for us to just barely lose that game.

That said, I know it was a convenient narrative but that alone wasn't the cause for recruiting slide. Justus sucked. Shoe companies and handlers were doing everything in their power to keep kids away from UK. A perfect storm at that time.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

If Booker and Towns weren't leading in minutes, no wonder opposing coaches sold negative info (right or wrong). They're the most talented from the start and each are now 250+ million richer. It's like when y'all UK fans made fun of UNC and how Dean Smith "held" MJ to sub 20 ppg.
Don't blame opposing coaches (the spin or reality just to compete)...or Cal (success breeds unreasonable expectations).

You are confusing pro-Booker and college-Booker. He has improved a lot, as should happen with a NBA-all-star. It was questionable whether he was any better than Aaron H, who proved himself clutch the year before in the tournament. Both were streaky, and Booker had gotten cold at end of season (FR wall?). But I suppose you could argue if Booker had played more he would have hit that FR-wall sooner, and already gotten past it.

Towns did foul a bit, 1 foul every 7:09, so that limited his PT. The next highest foul rates were Johnson (C) at 1 every 9:12, and WCS 1 foul every 12:58. Otherwise I think he would have played more like 26mpg (like WCS and the Harrison twins did). Yet, the 21 mpg did not hurt him in the draft as he went #1 overall, which appears to have been the correct spot for him (lol at Okafor being pushed to be #1 by "experts").

 

[bucsrule8872]

Starting five that year should have been:

G Harrison
G Harrison
G Booker
F Cauley-Stein
F Towns

Should have brought Ulis, Poythress(until injury), Lyles, and Johnson off the bench. Lee, Willis, and Hawkins see spot duty/mop up minutes.

Just my opinion.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

Starting five that year should have been:

G Harrison
G Harrison
G Booker
F Cauley-Stein
F Towns

Should have brought Ulis, Poythress(until injury), Lyles, and Johnson off the bench. Lee, Willis, and Hawkins see spot duty/mop up minutes.

Just my opinion.

The Platoon, before Poythress was injured, was a suffocating defense for teams to face. We were playing historically great defense. Held UCLA to like 15 in the 1st half, absolutely demolished KU and UCLA. Was holding teams to just UNDER 30% FG shooting.
Lee was admittedly the "reach" player when it came to the platoon. But the other 9 were good enough, and he could play defense, that he didn't hurt them. But once Poythress went down, then you either had to hide 2 guys or go to a 9 man rotation. And the 8-9 man rotation is what we did. But still playing Ulis, Booker a lot, and Johnson a decent bit (because Towns collected a lot of fouls). Lee's minutes decreased, because the platoon stopped being used.

 

[HeelVol]

You are confusing pro-Booker and college-Booker. He has improved a lot, as should happen with a NBA-all-star. It was questionable whether he was any better than Aaron H, who proved himself clutch the year before in the tournament. Both were streaky, and Booker had gotten cold at end of season (FR wall?). But I suppose you could argue if Booker had played more he would have hit that FR-wall sooner, and already gotten past it.

Towns did foul a bit, 1 foul every 7:09, so that limited his PT. The next highest foul rates were Johnson (C) at 1 every 9:12, and WCS 1 foul every 12:58. Otherwise I think he would have played more like 26mpg (like WCS and the Harrison twins did). Yet, the 21 mpg did not hurt him in the draft as he went #1 overall, which appears to have been the correct spot for him (lol at Okafor being pushed to be #1 by "experts").

good info and not disagreeing. I'm sure Calipari was justified (as evidenced with your stats) with his lineups that year and it all almost worked to perfection.

What I am saying is that people today see Booker and Anthony-Towns being top 25 NBA players with $250 million deals but Calipari started other players. The spin..." Calipari doesn't know what he's doing so why would you want to go to UK and possibly get misevaluated and not allowed to shoot out of your cold slump or learn how to not foul so much? Here at so-and-so school, you will be given the ball and you'll be given a long leash" (Cade Cunningham as an example)

The facts you laid out would be lost on most. It's unfair but that's how it goes. Many rival fanbases made fun of Roy Williams never starting Marvin Williams who ended up the 2nd pick and had a 15 year NBA career.

 

[Ryan Lemonds Hair]

good info and not disagreeing. I'm sure Calipari was justified (as evidenced with your stats) with his lineups that year and it all almost worked to perfection.

What I am saying is that people today see Booker and Anthony-Towns being top 25 NBA players with $250 million deals but Calipari started other players. The spin..." Calipari doesn't know what he's doing so why would you want to go to UK and possibly get misevaluated and not allowed to shoot out of your cold slump or learn how to not foul so much? Here at so-and-so school, you will be given the ball and you'll be given a long leash" (Cade Cunningham as an example)

The facts you laid out would be lost on most. It's unfair but that's how it goes. Many rival fanbases made fun of Roy Williams never starting Marvin Williams who ended up the 2nd pick and had a 15 year NBA career.

Booker was a guy who wasn't even projected to be a 1 and done talent and not only was drafted in the lottery but is a Max Contract guy....despite only playing 20-25 minutes per game. Seems like to me that would be more eye opening than trying to say that Cal underutilized him.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

good info and not disagreeing. I'm sure Calipari was justified (as evidenced with your stats) with his lineups that year and it all almost worked to perfection.

What I am saying is that people today see Booker and Anthony-Towns being top 25 NBA players with $250 million deals but Calipari started other players. The spin..." Calipari doesn't know what he's doing so why would you want to go to UK and possibly get misevaluated and not allowed to shoot out of your cold slump or learn how to not foul so much? Here at so-and-so school, you will be given the ball and you'll be given a long leash" (Cade Cunningham as an example)

The facts you laid out would be lost on most. It's unfair but that's how it goes. Many rival fanbases made fun of Roy Williams never starting Marvin Williams who ended up the 2nd pick and had a 15 year NBA career.

Outside of UK fans, I doubt more than a very few basketball fans know that UK played a Platoon system any during the 2015 season, or how many minutes Towns or Booker played. They only know the school the 2 of them played for, unless NBA announcers point out (which I doubt) every game that Calipari is the only person who can limit Towns or Booker to <11ppg (like what they used to say about Dean Smith and Jordan not scoring 20ppg there).

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

Booker was a guy who wasn't even projected to be a 1 and done talent and not only was drafted in the lottery but is a Max Contract guy....despite only playing 20-25 minutes per game. Seems like to me that would be more eye opening than trying to say that Cal underutilized him.

Just as eye-popping is that the next year, 5'8 Ulis was a first team All-American

 

[HeelVol]

Outside of UK fans, I doubt more than a very few basketball fans know that UK played a Platoon system any during the 2015 season, or how many minutes Towns or Booker played. They only know the school the 2 of them played for, unless NBA announcers point out (which I doubt) every game that Calipari is the only person who can limit Towns or Booker to <11ppg (like what they used to say about Dean Smith and Jordan not scoring 20ppg there).

I actually think a lot of fans knew about the UK platoon. UK was rolling towards an undefeated season and game announcers would discuss the platoon (extolling Calipari's recruiting prowess) as the cameras panned to the sideline with 5 players walking in and 5 players walking out. KAT was the #2 rated recruit and projected #1 pick and garnered a lot of attention. I think that hurt big man recruiting (amount of minutes KAT got compared to how good he was/still is). Booker was ranked #22 recruit so it makes sense that wings/shooters mature a little different. He really blossomed in the NBA.

Another thing that likely hurt big man recruiting is how Anthony Davis was utilized in Lexington. He is a generational talent but had to be a defensive anchor and supreme finisher for a championship team. I bet opposing coaches said Cal held AD back but the truth is that the team needed that from AD and it won the ring and AD was still the #1 pick. Goes to show you that lots of high school players don't really care about NCAA championships as much as their draft stock.

 

[Ryan Lemonds Hair]

I actually think a lot of fans knew about the UK platoon. UK was rolling towards an undefeated season and game announcers would discuss the platoon (extolling Calipari's recruiting prowess) as the cameras panned to the sideline with 5 players walking in and 5 players walking out. KAT was the #2 rated recruit and projected #1 pick and garnered a lot of attention. I think that hurt big man recruiting (amount of minutes KAT got compared to how good he was/still is). Booker was ranked #22 recruit so it makes sense that wings/shooters mature a little different. He really blossomed in the NBA.

Another thing that likely hurt big man recruiting is how Anthony Davis was utilized in Lexington. He is a generational talent but had to be a defensive anchor and supreme finisher for a championship team. I bet opposing coaches said Cal held AD back but the truth is that the team needed that from AD and it won the ring and AD was still the #1 pick. Goes to show you that lots of high school players don't really care about NCAA championships as much as their draft stock.

So they want to go higher than #1?

 

[HeelVol]

Just as eye-popping is that the next year, 5'8 Ulis was a first team All-American

Ullis...great college player. 17 pts 7 assist as a soph. Outstanding. Too bad he didn't arrive during the NIL era where he could stay 5 years (too short and not good enough as a jump shooter for the NBA), earn lots of NIL money and lead the program as multi-year all-american. Hope recovery continues smoothly for the young man.

 

[HeelVol]

So they want to go higher than #1?

Like many UK fans have voiced, it doesn't make sense why big man recruiting at UK dipped. Maybe AD and KAT are truly generational and the #1 ranked centers/PFs aren't as good (except Chet Holmgren) and they need to work through their learning curves via 35 minutes/game...not a platoon system or being limited in any way.

Winning basketball at the college level requires some sacrifice by individuals to forge a team. Recruits seem to want assurance (aka guarantees) that they'll get enough minutes to shine for the nba scouts. Seems like for AD/KAT, sub 30 is enough. but recruits may not have that confidence in themselves.

Look at Collins. He was very highly rated but rarely played for you guys. Some recruits, without knowing the facts, would be turned off by that.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

Like many UK fans have voiced, it doesn't make sense why big man recruiting at UK dipped. Maybe AD and KAT are truly generational and the #1 ranked centers/PFs aren't as good (except Chet Holmgren) and they need to work through their learning curves via 35 minutes/game...not a platoon system or being limited in any way.

Winning basketball at the college level requires some sacrifice by individuals to forge a team. Recruits seem to want assurance (aka guarantees) that they'll get enough minutes to shine for the nba scouts. Seems like for AD/KAT, sub 30 is enough. but recruits may not have that confidence in themselves.

Look at Collins. He was very highly rated but rarely played for you guys. Some recruits, without knowing the facts, would be turned off by that.

But it does make sense. Nike and Converse started paying players to go to Duke and other schools.

Our big men top recruits under Cal:
Cousins - success
Davis - success
Noel - success (but injured)
Randle - success
KAT - success
Skal - failure
Bam - success
Richards - appropriate development given ranking
Collins - initial failure, but TBD (I think will become success)

 

[Paulyv94]

The "big Fall" in recruiting is because assistants started to pay players under the table. Cal, with an NCAA agent on staff could not do it. Obviously, he never needed to but once players could get paid and we couldn't that changed. Still convinced that Duke paid big time for Zion, but they will never get in trouble.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

The "big Fall" in recruiting is because assistants started to pay players under the table. Cal, with an NCAA agent on staff could not do it. Obviously, he never needed to but once players could get paid and we couldn't that changed. Still convinced that Duke paid big time for Zion, but they will never get in trouble.

Winner winner, chicken dinner!!!

 

[HeelVol]

The "big Fall" in recruiting is because assistants started to pay players under the table. Cal, with an NCAA agent on staff could not do it. Obviously, he never needed to but once players could get paid and we couldn't that changed. Still convinced that Duke paid big time for Zion, but they will never get in trouble.

But it does make sense. Nike and Converse started paying players to go to Duke and other schools.

Our big men top recruits under Cal:
Cousins - success
Davis - success
Noel - success (but injured)
Randle - success
KAT - success
Skal - failure
Bam - success
Richards - appropriate development given ranking
Collins - initial failure, but TBD (I think will become success)

VERY impressive big man recruiting!

But you all didnt lose too many battles. from memory, I can only think of a few UK lost AND hindsight...you don't want dirty players.

Skal was the number 1 recruit who big time flopped. Everyone wanted him included UNC. Skal affected recruitments of other players who chose elsewhere.

Dont forget about Isaiah Jackson (success) but he may be more a stretch PF than a "big".

Jarrett Allen (texas - stayed home)
Mo Bamba (texas - Mo wanted to be different path than bluebloods)
Wendell Carter (Duke - no offense but the Carters touted academics)
Marquis Bolden (Duke - was a top rated center but was OVERrated)
Deandre Ayton (Arizona - likely paid by dirty Sean Miller)
Zion (Duke - most likely paid)
James Wiseman (dirty player who went to dirty Memphis)
Isaiah Stewart (washington - close w asst coach at Syracuse who moved to Wash)
Greg Brown (texas - stayed home)
Matthew Hurt (Duke - probably clean recruitment)
Paolo Banchero (Duke - played for K's last squad. probably told that ahead of time)
Jalen Duren (Memphis - NIL and dirty Memphis doings)
Dereck Lively (Duke - probably a clean recruitment)

by my count, UK lost 3 bigs to Texas, 3-4 to being highly likely being paid (zion, ayton, Wiseman, maybe Duren). the others seemed clean where Duke and others had their reasons.

 

[KY2LA]

I think if they had gone 40-0, it would be a different story. Remember Cal thanking the parents of the players throughout the season? That really ought to answer your question.

instead, they came up short, and several guys had to come off the bench (my baby a starter). Harrisons and Dakari went from late first rounders/second rounders as freshmen to out of the draft altogether.

When I was reading “my baby a starter” I heard a black mama voice.