Why value athleticism so much over shooting?

ArtSmass

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We all know that Cal wants a roster stacked with long, athletic, jump-out-of-the-gym types and relegates guys who are less athletic but better shooters to limited minutes.

It seems obvious -- "Cal has to fulfill promises made to 5*s to keep getting them" -- but there has to be something deeper to it for him to be willing to lose due to lack of scoring.

I think Cal's primary issue comes back to the old (and outdated) adage: "Defense wins championships." He'd rather have 5 guys on the floor that can guard every position than risk having one 'shooter' who is limited athletically for that. We know he doesn't teach "plays" on offense (takes time away from teaching defense) and he says at beginning of season all they work on is defense.

Further, Cal knows that a true "zone team" (e.g., Syracuse) really never wins the title. So, he force-feeds man-to-man no matter what to his unreal athletic but VERY inexperienced players -- even when it's obvious some zone would help us win.

So I'm not sure Cal's issue on continuing to play poor offensive guys like Boston, Clarke (and add to that A. Goodwin, K. Johnson, etc.) isn't so much about him thinking they will eventually be scorers but that he values defense so much more than offense.

Nick Saban used to have this paradigm in football and recently changed his thinking to one that says he's going to have the most EXPLOSIVE, points-scoring offense possible while still having an above-average defense -- which will lead him to many more championships even though he's not shutting teams out like they did in the past. He realized the game itself has changed and as smart as he was, he had to change with it or get left behind by the Lane Kiffins, Steve Sarkisians, etc.

For Cal to continue his ways as a "Hall of Fame Coach," I think he has to have a paradigm-change and it's not so much about the one-and-done philosophy as it is the "defense-first" mentality.

If he makes this ONE paradigm-shift I'm good with him continuing on; if not, I'd be ready to go with anyone else with a sound "offense-first" mentality.
 
Nov 27, 2009
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He also needs to consider the fact that kids wanna play in a high octane offense that showcases their skills. Of course defense is important but so is putting the damn ball in the basket.
Newsflash.....The team that puts the ball thru the basket the most is declared the winner.
 

ArtSmass

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He also needs to consider the fact that kids wanna play in a high octane offense that showcases their skills. Of course defense is important but so is putting the damn ball in the basket.
Newsflash.....The team that puts the ball thru the basket the most is declared the winner.
Great point. Notice -- he gets lots of 5*'s, but rarely ever the prolific shooter 5*. Herro maybe an exception?
 
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Allen might not be as athletic as some, especially after the injury and rehabilitation. However, besides being a sniper, he seems to have a craftiness on the floor that helps him defensively. Twice he busted up fast breaks that were most certain scores for MSU. He seems to be a heady player who, with more non pressure minutes, will thrive.
 

Randy Bob

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I wonder how much time Allen gets in the next games? I know you would think he would be starting and let some these people who cannot shoot be riding the bench.
 
A

anon_013cn8yrfncx2

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I don’t disagree with much of your post. However, Defense does win championships and it is not old and outdated.

Nah. It’s rare that defense alone can win a championship. You have to be great at either offense or defense and AT LEAST average+ at the other.

I offer the example of Georgetown. They played great D with Ewing anchoring the middle and very quick guards who could turn their counterparts. We all remember 3 for 33 and in fact it had a great deal to do with defense. Still lost by only a dozen or so.

What happened in the championship game? Nova shot something like 80 % in the second half to win by 2 in a low scoring game. Hoyas had all the D they needed just not enough O.

Perfect defense can only guarantee a tie.
 
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CoachR35

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I don’t disagree with much of your post. However, Defense does win championships and it is not old and outdated.
Defense is absolutely vital to the overall success of a team, but you still have to score more than your opponent to win. It just seems like in recent years Cal's teams lack offensive execution and continuity.
 
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ArtSmass

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Nah. It’s rare that defense alone can win a championship. You have to be great at either offense or defense and AT LEAST average+ at the other.

I offer the example of Georgetown. They played great D with Ewing anchoring the middle and very quick guards who could turn their counterparts. We all remember 3 for 33 and in fact it had a great deal to do with defense. Still lost by only a dozen or so.

What happened in the championship game? Nova shot something like 80 % in the second half to win by 2 in a low scoring game. Hoyas had all the D they needed just not enough O.

Perfect defense can only guarantee a tie.
Bingo. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to have GREAT defense -- but in today's game (football or basketball) you can't manage your team's personnel, strategy, tactics to favor defense AT THE EXPENSE of having great offense.

And I think that's exactly what guides Cal's decision making in personnel, strategy, and tactics.
 

littlecreek

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Nah. It’s rare that defense alone can win a championship. You have to be great at either offense or defense and AT LEAST average+ at the other.

I offer the example of Georgetown. They played great D with Ewing anchoring the middle and very quick guards who could turn their counterparts. We all remember 3 for 33 and in fact it had a great deal to do with defense. Still lost by only a dozen or so.

What happened in the championship game? Nova shot something like 80 % in the second half to win by 2 in a low scoring game. Hoyas had all the D they needed just not enough O.

Perfect defense can only guarantee a tie.
The Hoyas beat Kentucky in 1984 and then beat Houston in the finals. It was 1985 that Villanova beat them in the finals.
 

MakinMusic_rivals

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Nah. It’s rare that defense alone can win a championship. You have to be great at either offense or defense and AT LEAST average+ at the other.

I offer the example of Georgetown. They played great D with Ewing anchoring the middle and very quick guards who could turn their counterparts. We all remember 3 for 33 and in fact it had a great deal to do with defense. Still lost by only a dozen or so.

What happened in the championship game? Nova shot something like 80 % in the second half to win by 2 in a low scoring game. Hoyas had all the D they needed just not enough O.

Perfect defense can only guarantee a tie.

Not trying to be an *** but yes, of course you have to score but great defense with a solid offense has a better chance of winning a championship than the reverse, in my opinion. I can’t even think of any sport with a recent championship that didn’t have superior defense.
 

MakinMusic_rivals

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Not anymore.The game has changed and Cal needs to change with it.

The game has changed?? Someone forgot to tell me we only do offense now. Again, not trying to be an *** but that’s just silly. Defense is still a huge part of the game. Find a championship team in any sport in the last decade that hasn’t been superior to their opponents defensively.
 

HenryMuto

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It sure be nice to have a combo of both. Get a few guys who stay 3-4 years that can shoot the lights out that feed off the rest of the team ability to get them open. I guess on defense they might be a liability.
 
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MakinMusic_rivals

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The last b2b championship team had a 6'1" average athlete at SG and still had a great defensive team.. Spacing matters.

Good post. I’m not advocating athletes for the sake of good defense at the expense of offense. I’m simply saying defense matters as much today as it did 30 years ago when it comes to winning at a high level.
 
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K_TIME

Heisman
Jan 2, 2003
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Look you still need great defense but it’s not always an either/or scenario

- You need to have shooting From your wings and guards...
- You need ball handling and decision making at the point
- Your bigs do need to rebound and defend

But Cal has made roster mistakes this years of lacking shooting and regardless of roster his offensive philosophy is way too restrictive to ball movements
 

Cabo Blue

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My question is now does the 5 star have to prove he should play in front of Allen, or is it still a given because of him being a 5 star? Allen being able to shoot didn’t just appear, does anyone pay attention in practice? SMH
 

qwesley

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Feb 5, 2003
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Good post. I’m not advocating athletes for the sake of good defense at the expense of offense. I’m simply saying defense matters as much today as it did 30 years ago when it comes to winning at a high level.
For sure. I was just pointing out you can sacrifice a little defense to build a good offense.
 

ArtSmass

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My question is now does the 5 star have to prove he should play in front of Allen, or is it still a given because of him being a 5 star? Allen being able to shoot didn’t just appear, does anyone pay attention in practice? SMH
Again, I think THIS is the overall issue.

It isn't about the kid's star-rating, it's that Cal wants the guys with the skill-set, body dimensions, measurables, etc. that make them fit great defense AT THE EXPENSE of how good the offense could be.

Cal favors (way too much in my opinion) getting the right pieces on defense on the floor that he's willing to sacrifice offensive proficiency.

No doubt having solid defense is A key to winning championships, but look at the NBA, the NFL, College Football, and College Basketball today compared to the 90s. Championships favor those who can score prolifically -- even the Defensive guru Saban had to give in on this point and change his strategy/tactical approach.
 

mebeblue2

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Dec 20, 2009
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neither Booker or Herro are great athletes
when both came to UK they could not guard a brick

yet they both played a lot
 
Mar 10, 2003
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Not trying to be an *** but yes, of course you have to score but great defense with a solid offense has a better chance of winning a championship than the reverse, in my opinion. I can’t even think of any sport with a recent championship that didn’t have superior defense.
2018 Villanova - 44th Defense/ #1 Offense
2017 North Carolina - 41st Defense/ 12th Offense
2015 Duke - 63rd Defense/ #3 Offense

Also 2019 Virginia’s offensive efficiency was rated higher than their defense and also beat the #1 defensive team in the championship. Villanova’s offense was rated well above their defense in 2016 as well when they won. That’s all just in the last 5 champions we’ve had based on efficiency ratings. A solid defense is important but the trends say it’s more important to be efficient offensively. Just shows how the game has changed.
 
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katwest

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Larry Bird has been the biggest myth buster of that theory. He had a quick first step and was a great shooter and underrated passer as well as an able rebounder with average athleticism. I think Cal has put to much emphasis on athleticism, that alone doesn't win games.
 
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The game has changed?? Someone forgot to tell me we only do offense now. Again, not trying to be an *** but that’s just silly. Defense is still a huge part of the game. Find a championship team in any sport in the last decade that hasn’t been superior to their opponents defensively.
2019 Virginia #6 defense beat Texas Tech #1
2018 Nova #44 beat Michigan #16
2017 North Carolina #41 beat Gonzaga #1
 
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Oneandnotdone38

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It's the same mistake NBA scouts make. I don't know. Diallo is the perfect example. A guy that was Uber athletic. But has a hard time finding the net.

Cal is stuck in a different era. Adapt or leave.
 
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