Why does USM still exist?

[HeCannotGo]

The thread on Southern Miss hate towards MSU made me think (always a dangerous thing). Mississippi is a poor state with a smallish and possibly dwindling population, yet we have eight public universities (nine if you count the med center). Politics and emotions aside, most would agree that the state doesn't need all eight of these schools.

So let's say you're the governor with a compliant state legislature and IHL board--yeah, I know, but dream with me here for a moment.

Would the state lose anything of significant value if we closed USM, Valley, Alcorn, Delta State and MUW? That would leave State, Ole Miss and Jackson State.

The state provides about $74 million of taxpayer dollars to USM per year, $14MM to MVSU, $19MM to Alcorn, $20MM to Delta State, and $15MM to MUW, for a total of about $142 million per year.

If you close these schools, you'd certainly have some transition costs and would need to increase state funding at the remaining schools to some extent, but I bet you could ultimately save about $100 million per year by making this move. I think we could easily offset whatever value these schools bring to the state with this $100MM per year that would be freed up for roads, K-12 education, economic development and job creation incentives, etc.

I admit that I don't know much about Southern Miss as a school. Do they bring something to the table that can't easily be replicated at UM, MSU or JSU? At one point they had a well-regarded polymer science program. If that's still the case, it seems like such a program could be shifted to MSU without too much difficulty.

Yes, geography is a weakness in my plan, as it would leave the southern part of the state without a major university. But I think it would take only a small portion of the savings to provide things a weekly shuttle system from the coast and Hattiesburg to Jackson, Oxford, and Starkville. You could also provide students with a "transportation scholarship" or grant to offset any hardship in getting to Oxford, Starkville or Jackson.

And, yes, closing Valley, Alcorn and MUW brings race and gender arguments to the table. The Ayers case would rear its ugly head again. The savings from closing just these schools probably wouldn't be worth the political and legal fight, but if you add USM and Delta State to the list, the payoff becomes much bigger.

Discuss.

 

[dorndawg]

I highly doubt you're going to get much traction towards closing any of the schools, but making MUW part of State, Delta State part of OM, and Valley part of JSU seems like a no-brainer from an administration point of view.

 

[bruiser.sixpack]

I vote to close Ole Miss.

Leave the rest.

 

[HeCannotGo]

I highly doubt you're going to get much traction towards closing any of the schools, but making MUW part of State, Delta State part of OM, and Valley part of JSU seems like a no-brainer from an administration point of view.

I don't disagree with you. Closing several universities is close to impossible from a political standpoint, although I think Mississippi needs to try something bold. Your idea of merging several schools is a good one and possibly an interim step towards outright closure.

 

[Joe Schmedlap]

You really want to be bold and think outside the box? Merge the two SEC schools into one. Roll all HBC colleges into one at JSU. Close MUW/merge it with State. Leave Delta State and USM alone.

 

[Maroonthirteen]

Because that part of the state is highly populated (relative to the rest of MS) and serves that area to educate kids. Also provide jobs. So on and so on.

What gender issues would closing the W (never going to happen) cause? The Mississippi university for women is a coed school.

Every state has multiple universities. Look at Arkansas. Arkansas has to many to list.

 

[Arthur2478]

You can't logically justify not having a public university south of I-20 in a state the size of Mississippi (over 300 miles between northern border and coast). If you truly want to present a logical plan to save money, then combining several neighboring universities is the only reasonable conclusion. Combine State and the W, Valley & DSU and combine some of the JUCOs: Hinds/Holmes, Meridian/EMCC & Soutwest/Co-Lin.

You can even keep the separate campuses for these schools, just simply combining all the administration departments/positions would save millions.

 

[HeCannotGo]

Because that part of the state is highly populated (relative to the rest of MS) and serves that area to educate kids. Also provide jobs. So on and so on.

What gender issues would closing the W (never going to happen) cause? The Mississippi university for women is a coed school. 

Every state has multiple universities. Look at Arkansas. Arkansas has to many to list.

Yes, but I'm not saying "multiple" is bad, just that 8 is too many. And that of those 8, there are several that could go away without a negative long-term impact.

Would some jobs disappear if you closed a university or two or five? Absolutely. But could even more jobs be generated with the savings? Yes indeed.

I agree with you on the geographical point. But if a kid can travel an hour to Hattiesburg, he can travel an extra hour or three to get somewhere else. As I mentioned in my initial post, some of the savings from closure could be allocated to offset this hardship.

 

[11thEagleFan]

An independent study a couple years ago concluded that USM generates over $600 million for the southern part of the state annually. Along with marine and coastal research, polymer sciences, researching learning disabilities in children, the DuBard School, research contracts with the US Army, the largest percentage of minority students at a non-HBCU in the state... yeah I’m not sure what USM offers. This thread is 17ing dumb. If you wanted to advocate for merging all the HBCUs into Jackson State, I could probably get on-board with that. Hell, why don’t we just move State to Hattiesburg?

 

[Maroonthirteen]

. Hell, why don’t we just move State to Hattiesburg?

If State was in Hattiesburg..... 30k students. Or if USM was in the sec..... But... I digress. It is what it is and will always be.

 

[Maroonthirteen]

It seems some folks think MS has to many universities.

Arkansas has at least 10 that I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Duke Humphrey]

If MSU was placed in Meridian as originally planned

Hell, why don’t we just move State to Hattiesburg?

Would be interesting what State would look like, and if USM would have been created...... Oh well.

 

[dorndawg]

Yes but Arkansas essentially has one flagship, one USM-type school, and the rest are Delta State-type (plus one small HCBU in Pine Bluff)

 

[Hankp22]

USM is like gravity

Always there but you never see them!

 

[Go Budaw]

There needs to be a major 4-year school in the southern part of the state. There are probably too many public schools in state and some that should be cut, but USM isn’t one of them. USM’s nursing and teaching programs are also particularly strong (at least they were when I was coming out of high school over 15 years ago).

For comparison’s sake, look at Alabama. Yes, they have roughly double the population of Mississippi, but they also have way more than double the number of large non-HBCU 4-year schools. Alabama, Auburn, UAH, UAB, Troy, Jacksonville State, USA, UNA. All fairly large 4-year universities that offer niche degree programs that make them valuable. That’s compared to just the 3 schools in MS with similar size / degree platforms. Then they also have the HBCU component as well with Alabama State, Alabama A&M, etc., and smaller schools like West Alabama as well which are comparable to our Delta States, William Careys, etc.

The spending in MS is surely no more wasteful than Alabama. If anything, MS needs to consolidate to only 1 or 2 of the HBCU’s. Having Alcorn, JSU, and MVSU is a bit wasteful, as they all have similar strengths and weaknesses. But’s that’s a political shitstorm waiting to happen, so therefore we all know it will be virtually impossible to execute.

 

[Willow Grove Dawg]

Mississippi needs to maintain a University presence in the southern half of the state. I think it is logical though that Delta State, MUW, Alcorn State, & Mississippi Valley State should be merged into some combination of Mississippi State, Ole Miss, USM, & Jackson State. There has to be some cost savings there with duplication of Administrative personnel plus the programs in Columbus, Lorman, Itta Bena, & Cleveland would benefit from stronger infrastructure & financial support.

 

[Goat Holding Inc]

I don't understand what problem you are trying to solve. It's one of a couple of things:

1) You want to make MSU more successful in football. Well you could accomplish that by making USM go FCS or something like that, which may not be a bad idea.
2) You are a tea party nut-job who wants to save $50 while not understanding the consequences.

Universities exist to educate people. They are also innovation hubs. They also employ people in the state. As long as they are being run efficiently and do not operate in the red, there is no downside.

Some consolidation may be a good thing, such as MSU and MUW, because the geography works. But the only other real rational move is to downgrade USM's athletics, because their budget is running low as it is.

 

[wpmusm]

"It's time to shut USM down."

"Why do USM fans hate us so much?"

 

[Goat Holding Inc]

Would be interesting what State would look like, and if USM would have been created...... Oh well.

MS has made a series of bad decisions the past 150 years or so.

 

[catvet]

Not every University in the state needs to be classified as such. Places like Delta State, Alcorn, the W and DSU should all be colleges and funded to a lesser degree. Texas does this. There is not equal payments to the different schools. But honestly, if the State quit using K 12 as a jobs program and consolidated administration and districts, there would be more funding available for all our colleges/universities. It's a great idea that isnt going to happen.

 

[40 acres and a mule]

Because that part of the state is highly populated (relative to the rest of MS) and serves that area to educate kids. Also provide jobs. So on and so on.

What gender issues would closing the W (never going to happen) cause? The Mississippi university for women is a coed school. ��

Every state has multiple universities. Look at Arkansas. Arkansas has to many to list.

I would just like to point out that Arkansas and Alabama have multiple Universities, but they don't ALSO have as many Community colleges. Each state has 3.

I personally would like to see the community colleges be turned into true Trade schools ( diesel mechanic, welding, machine shop, plumbing, etc.)

Combine MSU and MUW programs and close MUW campus. Administratively combine Delta State and Valley; Jackson State and Alcorn.
Some CC's would probably also need to be combined/ closed.

If a person wanted a traditional 4 year college education, there is plenty of capacity to get one.

 

[Goat Holding Inc]

But honestly, if the State quit using K 12 as a jobs program and consolidated administration and districts, there would be more funding available for all our colleges/universities. It's a great idea that isnt going to happen.

Why is this a great idea? The cost savings would be minimal at best. I suggest, in a state like Mississippi, keeping as many employers in the state as possible.

When we discover a new renewable fuel under Jackson, or when the next tech giant locates to MS, we can start talking about cutting some government jobs in the same of saving minimal money.

 

[was21]

Community colleges already have trade school options. The first two years on the academic side for an Associate Arts degree provide a very good foundation for transfer to a four year institution and at a much lesser cost. I had better academic professors at Hinds than I did at State, just my opinion.

 

[catvet]

Why is this a great idea? The cost savings would be minimal at best. I suggest, in a state like Mississippi, keeping as many employers in the state as possible.

When we discover a new renewable fuel under Jackson, or when the next tech giant locates to MS, we can start talking about cutting some government jobs in the same of saving minimal money.

Because wasting that much money on K 12 keeps us from funding anything else. K12 takes up almost 70 % of the budget. That's where cuts have to start.

 

[johnson86-1]

Yes, but I'm not saying "multiple" is bad, just that 8 is too many. And that of those 8, there are several that could go away without a negative long-term impact.

Would some jobs disappear if you closed a university or two or five? Absolutely. But could even more jobs be generated with the savings? Yes indeed.

I agree with you on the geographical point. But if a kid can travel an hour to Hattiesburg, he can travel an extra hour or three to get somewhere else. As I mentioned in my initial post, some of the savings from closure could be allocated to offset this hardship.

That makes no sense. You can commute for an hour if you need to. You can't reasonably commute for three hours.

We screwed the pooch long ago with our universities. The location of UM and MSU make no sense, but there's not much to do about that now. Too much already invested there even ignoring the political impossibilities of doing anything with either. Hattiesburg and JSU are the only schools that have a location that make any sense. Probably should have had a university in Jackson, a university in the north on I-55 (maybe Grenada?) and then one on the Coast rather than Hattiesburg. Hattiesburg probably makes more sense geographically as far as location close to Mississippi residents, but putting it on the Coast would put it near unique resources allowing it to really offer something regionally or nationally important.

Consolidation of administration would be a great first step. State/MUW; UM and DSU; but then I'm not sure how you touch the HBC's. Consolidating all administration at JSU would make sense, but I'm not sure they have the competencies. That might just be damning to all the HBCs. Maybe consolidate MVSU with DSU and UM, and then JSU with MUW and MSU, and USM with Alcorn? That would probably be politically impossible, but would probably be beneficial to the HBCs.

Probably more politically possible to consolidate administrations of community colleges. Then maybe someone can get the clout to address the ridiculous number of schools districts, but those people have good 6 figure salaries to protect and will lobby much harder to protect them than anybody interested in savings.

 

[Dawgbite]

Always there but you never see them!

There is no such thing as gravity, the world just sucks!

 

[40 acres and a mule]

Community colleges already have trade school options. The first two years on the academic side for an Associate Arts degree provide a very good foundation for transfer to a four year institution and at a much lesser cost. I had better academic professors at Hinds than I did at State, just my opinion.

No doubt you had a good experience, as many do. Also, no doubt it was less expensive. And I know about the trade school options.

My main point is that Mississippi is spreading resources to thin, to too many campuses and that the entire Community college and University systems need to looked at, not just one or the other. They are basically in the same business, except for the Trade school part.

But, as I am sure you know, politics will keep any logical change to be made.

 

[johnson86-1]

Why is this a great idea? The cost savings would be minimal at best. I suggest, in a state like Mississippi, keeping as many employers in the state as possible.

When we discover a new renewable fuel under Jackson, or when the next tech giant locates to MS, we can start talking about cutting some government jobs in the same of saving minimal money.

WTF. There is value to government services, so the government employing people can be a net gain, but taken as a given you are talking about duplicative positions (which I think it's hard to argue that at some of our school district positions could be consolidated without any real loss), then that is not keeping employees in the state. It is economically no different than just picking some people to have annual, 6 figure welfare checks because you want to "keep money in Mississippi".

 

[johnson86-1]

Because wasting that much money on K 12 keeps us from funding anything else. K12 takes up almost 70 % of the budget. That's where cuts have to start.

70% of the "non-mandatory" budget. 25% of the budget goes to medicaid alone.

 

[was21]

Politics in Mississippi keep ANY logical changes from being made in all significant aspects...why it's usually on the bottom of every list that's factually comprised. Be sure and vote them out

 

[HardyStreetAlumniClub]

Tell me again how sending USM to FCS would make MSU more successful in football?

 

[Goat Holding Inc]

WTF. There is value to government services, so the government employing people can be a net gain, but taken as a given you are talking about duplicative positions (which I think it's hard to argue that at some of our school district positions could be consolidated without any real loss), then that is not keeping employees in the state. It is economically no different than just picking some people to have annual, 6 figure welfare checks because you want to "keep money in Mississippi".

It's minimal gain. No reason to change this. And yes, I 100% want to keep money in Mississippi. Doing as you say would yield us hardly anything.

Go after the bigger fish.

 

[Goat Holding Inc]

Because wasting that much money on K 12 keeps us from funding anything else. K12 takes up almost 70 % of the budget. That's where cuts have to start.

Bullcrap. The "cuts" would be a miniscule part of the budget. Terrible stats. K12 may take up 70% of the budget but your 'savings' would be like 2%. It's not worth the trouble or worth getting rid of those jobs in those communities.

If you want to talk about public school being a total failure, yeah we can talk about that, but reality is, public schools aren't going anywhere, if nothing else they do serve a purpose, if nothing more than glorified day care.

 

[Goat Holding Inc]

Tell me again how sending USM to FCS would make MSU more successful in football?

More USM fans would probably become MSU fans. Less of our backup plan recruits would sign with USM rather than MSU.

I never said it would make some huge, program changing difference. If anything, I think the OP's whole premise is stupid. I was trying to see the best in it.

 

[wpmusm]

The spending in MS is surely no more wasteful than Alabama. If anything, MS needs to consolidate to only 1 or 2 of the HBCU’s. Having Alcorn, JSU, and MVSU is a bit wasteful, as they all have similar strengths and weaknesses. But’s that’s a political shitstorm waiting to happen, so therefore we all know it will be virtually impossible to execute.

I believe it was Barbour that had some sort of consolidation plan. He wanted to merge the HBCUs and make MUW a satellite campus for MSU. It went over like a lead balloon.

Consolidating/merging public universities is extraordinarily rare. I think I read that the college board in Georgia made Armstrong University in Savannah a satellite campus for Georgia Southern, but that's the first and only time I've heard of such a thing. I'd be stunned if you ever saw any consolidation in MS higher ed.

 

[johnson86-1]

It's minimal gain. No reason to change this. And yes, I 100% want to keep money in Mississippi. Doing as you say would yield us hardly anything.

Go after the bigger fish.

There are 151 school districts in Mississippi. Let's just say we cut out the smallest ten percent and consolidated them into a bigger school district. Just the superintendent savings alone would be conservatively $1.5M per year (really probably higher by the time you count FICA, health insurance, PERS, etc). $1.5M per year indefinitely is a lot of money. That's somewhere along the lines of $37M in a lump sum, arguably closer to $50M. That's still real money to Mississippi and it's basically no cost other than political pain.

ETA: And taking money in taxes to give it to other Mississippi residents just b/c you want to "keep it in Mississippi" is stupid. That's a burden on the people of the state that makes people less likely to stay here, and population is arguably what we need more than anything.

 

[maroonmania]

There needs to be a major 4-year school in the southern part of the state. There are probably too many public schools in state and some that should be cut, but USM isn’t one of them. USM’s nursing and teaching programs are also particularly strong (at least they were when I was coming out of high school over 15 years ago).

For comparison’s sake, look at Alabama. Yes, they have roughly double the population of Mississippi, but they also have way more than double the number of large non-HBCU 4-year schools. Alabama, Auburn, UAH, UAB, Troy, Jacksonville State, USA, UNA. All fairly large 4-year universities that offer niche degree programs that make them valuable. That’s compared to just the 3 schools in MS with similar size / degree platforms. Then they also have the HBCU component as well with Alabama State, Alabama A&M, etc., and smaller schools like West Alabama as well which are comparable to our Delta States, William Careys, etc.

The spending in MS is surely no more wasteful than Alabama. If anything, MS needs to consolidate to only 1 or 2 of the HBCU’s. Having Alcorn, JSU, and MVSU is a bit wasteful, as they all have similar strengths and weaknesses. But’s that’s a political shitstorm waiting to happen, so therefore we all know it will be virtually impossible to execute.

Good grief, if MS is going open up the discussion of closing down publicly funded 4 year colleges, there are several that would need to go before USM should even be mentioned. Agree that it makes sense to have another comprehensive 4 year university in the south part of the state.

 

[Goat Holding Inc]

There are 151 school districts in Mississippi. Let's just say we cut out the smallest ten percent and consolidated them into a bigger school district. Just the superintendent savings alone would be conservatively $1.5M per year (really probably higher by the time you count FICA, health insurance, PERS, etc). $1.5M per year indefinitely is a lot of money. That's somewhere along the lines of $37M in a lump sum, arguably closer to $50M. That's still real money to Mississippi and it's basically no cost other than political pain.

ETA: And taking money in taxes to give it to other Mississippi residents just b/c you want to "keep it in Mississippi" is stupid. That's a burden on the people of the state that makes people less likely to stay here, and population is arguably what we need more than anything.

Fundamentally disagree. MS has one of the lowest tax burdens in the country. People here wouldn't feel it a bit. This is a non-issue.

Also, just curious where you are coming up with 37M lump sum? Not criticizing, just not following.

Only reason to consolidate a school is if a school is empty. Smaller is actually better when it comes to schools. Consolidating just to cut expenses shows that you don't care about education at all.

 

[L4Dawg]

Close all but MSU, UM, USM, and JSU. Make the Medical Center its own entity. It will never happen because it makes too much sense.

 

[johnson86-1]

Fundamentally disagree. MS has one of the lowest tax burdens in the country. People here wouldn't feel it a bit. This is a non-issue.

No, we don't. We have a pretty high sales tax (7%) along with middling to high income tax (5%, kicking it at a relatively low income), and low property taxes.

Also, just curious where you are coming up with 37M lump sum? Not criticizing, just not following.

If you asked the question, what sum of money do I need to reliably throw off $1.5M in inflation adjusted dollars each year in perpetuity, one answer is that historically, you could construct a moderately risked portfolio (say 60% stock, 40% bonds) and use a 4% initial withdrawal rate, and in most scenarios (like 90-95%), that money would last a few decades and longer. If you use a 4% discount rate, then divide $1.5M by 4%, and you get $37.5M. So the answer is you need $37.5M to put together a portfolio that will produce $1.5M a year, inflation adjusted, indefinitely. Another approach would be to say you need that $1.5M every single year without risk, so you need to basically invest in T-Bills, in which case the number gets much higher (the $50M is assuming a 3% discount rate).

Only reason to consolidate a school is if a school is empty. Smaller is actually better when it comes to schools. Consolidating just to cut expenses shows that you don't care about education at all.

We're not talking about consolidating schools, but school districts. Some superintendents have lots of schools within their districts. I think some literally have one school. The question of how many school districts (and how many superintendents) you need is a different question of how many schools you need. I think most counties in Mississippi probably only need one school district. I believe Oktibeha and starkville school districts are now consolidated? And Oktibeha has a population of somewhere around 50k. If you took every county smaller than Oktibeha and gave them one school district, and then for the counties with bigger populations, gave them school districts that put around 50k in each school district, then you'd end up with about 100 school districts depending on how you rounded up or down, which would represent about a third of districts being consolidated out. And no district would have much more than the number of students than Oktibeha has, and that ignores that you still have lots of counties with one school district even though they have a tiny population. I assume consolidating across counties might be a little more difficult politically.

ETA: actually, my numbers are dated. They've already gotten down to 138 districts. And some of those counties may already share school districts. Not sure.

ETA2: If it's not obvious, those numbers are population numbers, not numbers for enrolled children. Enrolled children would maybe be a better number; not sure, as I'm guessing some places look disproporionately low b/c the public schools have failed and so a higher percentage of students go private.