Why cancel the season?
- Thread starter Louis_Skunt
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Yes they are. Please provide proof to the contrary. Germany has a lower death toll, which is rising and expected to start growing more considerably in the coming weeks, because of their initial response with precautions and testing. Much like SK and Singapore. That is why they have considerably less deaths at this point.
That is absolutely not what the Italian government said at all. They stated that only 12% had covid 19 listed as the only contributing factor. Meaning they weren't already impacted by another medical ailment that could also contribute to mortality. China shares a border with 14 other countries, most of which haven't been impacted on the level of China. We share a border with Canada and Mexico and are far more impacted that either. See how that works?
Those are the Regions those countires are in. That is all that was being said. Somehow, in your mind, you twisted that to something about race. That's on you bud. I don't know what to tell you.
The US federal government, mainly Trump since he runs it, has completely botched this. We aren't testing more. In fact, it is still incredibly difficult to get tested in the US unless you meet certain criteria. However, SK, Gemany and others have been doing mass testing since Jan and Feb. They were able to detect and eradicate it those infected very early, as well as detect potential hot spots to curb. We did none of those things. SK advocated for all their citizens to wear masks, which we were told would not help. Come to find out, that was incorrect.
China reported this in December. Hell, it was on the news on NY Eve. Do I think they dropped the ball? Absolutely, but we had almost 2 months warning and did the bare minimum. We had experts telling us how bad this would get and Trump was saying it was just an exaggeration by the democrats and media to hurt his presidency. He was holding rallies, playing golf and tweeting away instead of adequately preparing this country. Why were we providing necessary supplies to other countries?
Italy has a significantly older population and will have higher numbers. Their relation to ours is minimal in this. We are going to make Italy look mild in a couple of weeks.
You mean this Dr. Fauci?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/dr-an...-in-front-of-the-microphone-and-push-him-down
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...-tries-make-white-house-listen-facts-pandemic
The Chinese and the WHO also stated it wasn’t transferable between humans in mid January.
Listen, it’s pretty clear that all you’re interested in is the political side of this, so carry on.
Germany has 81000 cases today, Italy has 114000 cases. Germany has 900 deaths and Italy 14000!
You do the math, 12% of actual Covid symptoms deaths would put Italy at 1680.
That would explain how Germany has 900 and Italy has 14000. Germany clearly isn’t listing deaths the same as Italy.
That's great for China and the who, and your whataboutisms, but we are America and we have handled this about as bad as could possibly be imaged. We have double the cases of the next 2 countries combined. We currently rank 3rd in moralities and will fly into first place in the matter of days. Our mortality rate has increased 6000% in 30 days. You can claim the federal government and Trump are doing well all you want, but no data supports that claim. So good luck being on the wrong side of history.
I’m by no means an expert on constitutional law nor how it applies to public health emergencies, so bear that in mind.
That said and without having dug into the case law extensively, I’d say that those people are most likely out of luck.
State and local governments have leeway to take these types of actions as part of their police power. The key is that they must be taken in response to a legitimate public health interest and need to be applied as even handedly as possible (i.e., you can’t use them as an excuse to single out certain individuals or groups without a very compelling reason).
There’s enough evidence to show that the governments have a legitimate interest here, so then you’re only hope in challenging this would be to argue that the government could achieve the same thing using a more narrow approach. But again here you’d have a tough time trying to prove this and the courts would probably give quite a bit of deference here to the governments.
Tough to say though because we’ve not really dealt with many of these types of actions before, so I think the case law is probably light (could be wrong).
I also suspect, but could be wrong, that the courts may look at these lockdowns a bit differently if they are still in place in say September versus if you were to challenge them today.
You feeling any better?
Good lord, where do you think we were getting our info from in a disease outbreak in China? China wasn’t letting anyone in, the WHO was stating it wasn’t transferable between humans.
Wrong side of history? Let the TDS go, this is serious.
Sure, if it were actually true, but that is just not the case I am afraid to tell you. No where in any article you have provided or in anything I have searched proves this. Germany has less deaths because they prepared better. Italy, France the US and others did not. Pretty simple really. If you theory was correct, why would Italy still have almost twice the overall deaths with only 1/3 more cases?
Ah, I see. So it’s a reading comprehension problem.
If you re-read my post, you’ll see that I referenced that the article you linked was merely re-using a quote from Ricciardi that was already used in a different article that was published one week earlier.
So I linked the original article that discussed this with Ricciardi so that folks had a better and more accurate understanding of the context surrounding Ricciardi’s quote.
Basically giving people more of the full story of what he was discussing in order to highlight your misunderstanding of what he was saying.
so, from what i read in CDC, it highlights that Federal government is responsible for preventing the virus from entering the country AND stopping the spread between states. It states that they have the power to quarantine / isolation to prevent spread. (state has similar power within the state)
Either way, we started way too late. (probably 2 months late).
Feeling better, thanks. First I found the Sherbert Test but I also found jacobson v massachusetts that was dead on point. I agree with your position. The opinions in jacobson v massachusetts are quite interesting. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/ Also employment division v smith, the same issues came up, more or less, and the same conclusions, at least to me, were reached.
Uhh, did the US not used to have a person in China on these very types of issues and help to limit or prevent them that the Trump administration fired a few months back?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...na-months-before-virus-outbreak-idUSKBN21910S
Sounds like a great move by the President, huh?
Also, if what you claimed were true, why was the US providing China critical aid and resources we now need? So, either what you claimed isn't entirely accurate, or the federal government made a colossal f'up. Which would you say?
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Glad to hear you’re feeling better.
I’ll try to read up on those over the weekend and have been meaning to do that just out of curiosity.
However, as you can see, the board has been overrun with idiots lately who have given me endless opportunity to indulge my love of arguing. Between that, following the news and trying to keep family safe, just haven’t gotten around to reading some of those other things yet.
No, it wasn’t a comprehension issue. You didn’t use the entire quote, and what you listed doesn’t refute anything. It says exactly what I stated.
You actually gave less than original quote, as I posted it in its entirety and you took a snippet of it.
The ones stating 12% was the Italian National institute for health. I’ll post the article again
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-different-countries-calculating-death-tolls/
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This is what it comes down to. The late start made all the difference. The fox was already in the hen house when we decided it was time to get real serious about stopping the fox.
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More than likely the Fox was in the henhouse long before we knew it was outside China.
Yeah, I've noticed. For a while now we're agreeing a lot all of a sudden. We'll see something different again soon. I enjoy arguing a bit too much.
Yeah, I’m sure that person would have saved the day. For the Chinese because they would have reported exactly the propaganda they’d been fed. There is no independently verified data in China. Any that try die suddenly of lead poisoning.
You are confused. It actually stated that no one with an IQ under 70 is allowed to post on this board. So, you shouldn't be posting on this site.
So lets buy into a good conspiracy theory and say that were true. Why would we provide aid to them, mainly medical supplies and resources we now need and are severely short on? Sounds like an extremely reckless and ignorant decision by the Federal government if China was lying and manipulating news about this.
How many of you people googled can tigers live in Ky and how do I breed them?
We gave aid because that’s a decent thing to do. Also, at that point it wasn’t known to anyone outside of China to transfer between people.
This doesn't really agree with you. There is simply too much variability between countries. For the most part, this point of contention is moot. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200401-coronavirus-why-death-and-mortality-rates-differ
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It says exactly what I have been saying.
This is not necessarily a source of discrepancy between most countries, though, as many are counting deaths in the same way. Italy counts any death of a patient who has Covid-19 as a death caused by Covid-19; so does Germany and Hong Kong.
In the US, doctors have more discretion: they are asked to record whether the patient died “as a result of this illness” when reporting Covid-19 deaths to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. It could be easy to see how a physician might believe that a Covid-19 patient who died of, say, a heart attack or brain aneurysm didn’t die as a result of Covid-19, and so wouldn’t report accordingly.
Importantly, though, while this might make a difference when the data is analysed months or years from now, this doesn’t translate into any difference in the death statistics at the moment. At present in the US, any death of a Covid-19 patient, no matter what the physician believes to be the direct cause, is counted for public reporting as a Covid-19 death.
“I expect that the final death certificate will have Covid along with pre-existing conditions, should there be any,” says Cécile Viboud, an epidemiologist at the Fogarty International Center at the National Institutes of Health. “But at this point, any Covid-positive case who dies will be tallied in the US death count.”
So what counts as a Covid-19 death will affect our overall understanding of the lethality of the disease in the long run, but it most likely isn’t playing a huge factor between countries.
So, when China, who is the manufactuing capital of the world, where most of out supplies come from reaches out for supplies from the rest of the world, no one in the Trump administration took notice and questioned why and the severity? Seems odd. Then of course there are these facts below.
Concerns about a dwindling supply of PPE are not new. Back on February 7, the World Health Organization sounded alarm bells about "the limited stock of PPE," noting demand was 100 times higher than normal for this equipment.
Yet the same day as the WHO warning, the Trump administration announced that it was transporting to China nearly 17.8 tons (more than 35,000 pounds) of "masks, gowns, gauze, respirators, and other vital materials." As Secretary of State Mike Pompeo noted in the press release announcing this shipment, "These donations are a testament to the generosity of the American people."
Americans indeed are a generous people. We want to help those in need. And at the time these medical supplies were shipped, more than 28,000 people in China were infected with nearly 600 deaths attributed to the virus. But how could Trump allow tons of vital medical equipment Americans to be transported to another country in February if, as he has claimed since January, he fully understood the risk the United States was facing from the virus.
As a reminder, the first known case of coronavirus case on US soil was confirmed by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on January 21, 2020.
The next day, Trump was asked about the virus while attending the World Economic Forum annual meeting in Davos. CNBC anchor Joe Kernen asked the President: "The CDC has identified a case of coronavirus in Washington state ... have you been briefed by the CDC?" to which Trump responded, "I have." Kernen continued, "Are there worries about a pandemic at this point?" Trump declared: "No. Not at all. And — we're — we have it totally under control. It's one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It's — going to be just fine."
Trump again on January 30 assured Americans he understood the threat posed by the virus and was prepared, stating, "We have it very well under control," adding, "We're working very closely with China and other countries, and we think it's going to have a very good ending for us ... that I can assure you."
On February 5, US lawmakers were pressing the Trump administration on its preparedness for a possible widespread coronavirus outbreak in the US, with some slamming the administration's failure to communicate with the states about how the White House would be addressing it.
By February 6, the United States had 12 known confirmed cases in Wisconsin, California, Washington, Arizona, Massachusetts and Illinois — and with mass testing not yet begun the number of infected was likely far higher.
It was in this climate that the Trump administration announced its aid transport to China. Pompeo bragged on Twitter that the administration had "coordinated with U.S. organizations to transport" goods to China including, "Personal protective equipment."
Now compare that to March 18, when Trump defiantly told governors pressing him to help their states obtain similar equipment: "The federal governments not supposed to be out there buying vast amounts of items and then shipping," adding, "We're not a shipping clerk."
Just three days after these goods arrived in China, Trump again bragged that the United States was in "great shape" when it came to the virus. He then added to assure an increasingly concerned America about Covid-19, "You know, a lot of people think that goes away in April with the heat — as the heat comes in," reiterating, "Typically, that will go away in April."
I won't be so glib as to ask what happened to Trump's "America First" policy. That's too easy. But the fact Trump claimed to comprehend the risk posed by the coronavirus and then shipped nearly 18 tons of equipment that includes much of what our medical staff are now pleading for means either he was lying or is dangerously incompetent. You can pick which one you believe. But the results are the same for our valiant health care workers who are working tirelessly to save lives from Covid-19.
You’re wrong on your dates the medical supplies were sent, the date you listed is when the financial aid was offered. I read the same article, it states that as of that date 17.8 tons of supplies were sent, it doesn’t say when.
Are you really casting blame on the Trump admin for sending aid to China? It would be one thing if it were now.
As of late January China was admitting to only having 80 people dead from the disease.
Does that number seem accurate to you, since we’re playing the hindsight is 20-20 game.
Which date is wrong and please provide sources to prove to the contrary. Those also aren't just may dates they are public record and have been verified.
Yes! Particularly if there is truth to the claims that they deceived the US and the rest of the world about the disease and it's impact, as well as supposedly blocking entrance by health experts and organizations to get a better understanding. Doing so put America at a greater risk and left us unequipped and unprepared. Also, here is this gem. https://www.beijingnews.net/news/26...s-at-home-us-provides-foreign-coronavirus-aid So since it is still happening now, how do you feel about it? Or are we just going to move the bar a few more yards???
On January 31, China stated they had 259 total death from Covid 19. It had basically double each of the preceding days from the 22nd, when they reported their first 8 deaths. Their progression looks very similar to almost every other country that has been significantly impacted. Do you have some evidence of the contrary?
Closing down businesses in areas where the virus is in a very small percentage of the population is irrational, imo. Now, you have Georgia residents who work in other states having to carry PAPERS that say that they are cv negative. Think about that folks. Carrying documents to be able to enter a state.
You also have politicians and bureaucrats continuing to call on others to snitch on their neighbors if any gatherings happen. Check out the mayor of Los Angeles, Eric Garcetti claiming that “snitches will be rewarded.” Excuse me, but if my family comes to my house for supper, and we are all cv free, that is my business.
The amount of power grabbing by both Democrats and Republicans during this time of trying to contain a virus that we are still learning about is antithetical to a free and open society. We can use common sense methods and promote the treatment modalities that are having success, like the hydroxychloroquine, but I have seen little mention of this drug in the national media.
They should be promoting whatever strategy they can to help stop the progression of this disease.
My belief is that these extreme measures have greatly weakened our country by giving those nations who hate the US a blueprint for destroying the economy, the health and prosperity in less than two months. This should serve as a stark reminder to all that at our core, we are spiritual beings that can rise above our circumstances because of our Faith in God. But, it should also be a warning that giving up our freedoms for a promise of safety and security is not a sure thing. People will still die from many things today. Is it worth handing over our liberties in the slight hope that we will survive a virus? A virus that is already leveling off in California and Washington State according to news reports?
We need more FACTS and less demands, imo.
You also have politicians and bureaucrats continuing to call on others to snitch on their neighbors if any gatherings happen. Check out the mayor of Los Angeles, Eric Garcetti claiming that “snitches will be rewarded.” Excuse me, but if my family comes to my house for supper, and we are all cv free, that is my business.
The amount of power grabbing by both Democrats and Republicans during this time of trying to contain a virus that we are still learning about is antithetical to a free and open society. We can use common sense methods and promote the treatment modalities that are having success, like the hydroxychloroquine, but I have seen little mention of this drug in the national media.
They should be promoting whatever strategy they can to help stop the progression of this disease.
My belief is that these extreme measures have greatly weakened our country by giving those nations who hate the US a blueprint for destroying the economy, the health and prosperity in less than two months. This should serve as a stark reminder to all that at our core, we are spiritual beings that can rise above our circumstances because of our Faith in God. But, it should also be a warning that giving up our freedoms for a promise of safety and security is not a sure thing. People will still die from many things today. Is it worth handing over our liberties in the slight hope that we will survive a virus? A virus that is already leveling off in California and Washington State according to news reports?
We need more FACTS and less demands, imo.
You're enjoying a good game of damned if you do and damned if you don't. It wouldn't matter what Trump did as there are no perfect answers. And I'm sorry, the way deaths are listed most certainly plays a huge factor between countries as the epidemiologist in the article, you know, an expert, said.
Just a quick question. In your family gathering, how do you know each other is cv free?
You mean like they threaten to withdraw critical medication? You really are ignorant of Chinese culture on the side of political ruthlessness.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2012FH
Here is the article reporting the aid. You were right on the financial aid, it clearly states in the article that 17 tons of medically supplies had already been sent up to that point, not that it was shipped then.
What we know today has nothing to do with what we knew then. Do you understand that?
On January 31 trump had already called a national health emergency, and blocked travel from China of Chinese nationals.
Did you read the article you posted? We aren’t short of money.
Not at all. We were likely to be impacted to a degree no matter what, just not to the level we are being told to expect now. We were told at 15 cases we would have 0 in the next few days. We were led to expect the country open by Easter. Now we are told to expect 240,000 deaths. Seems like a lot of mis information coming from the top down.
Well, according to article you posted, it does not play a signifigant factor. Unless you are now saying you disagree with them. After all, it was their words from the article I replied to you with, not my own. [winking]
Try again.
"So what counts as a Covid-19 death will affect our overall understanding of the lethality of the disease in the long run, but it most likely isn’t playing a huge factor between countries."
"So what counts as a Covid-19 death will affect our overall understanding of the lethality of the disease in the long run, but it most likely isn’t playing a huge factor between countries."
These are quotes from the article you posted.
It's like you people have no clue what you are actually reading.
To be fair to Italy, I don’t think we should be using the same “under reported” term for them and China when China is purposefully not reporting stuff.
Italy is incapable of being able to report a correct number.
Do the math between countries, it doesn’t add up correlating between cases and deaths. Don’t take our word for it, look at it for yourself.
Are we going to start labeling every disease death the way we are Covid?
If you drink alcohol, but die of a heart attack what’s the cause?
How bout if you die of diabetes and test positive for the flu? That’s a helluva conundrum under these new death guidelines.
I read it fine but didn't catch contradictory information. So in one place it says it matters in another it says it doesn't. To say it doesn't, doesn't make much common sense though unless they aren't exactly talking about the same thing as you and I, which is what I suspect.
It won't be sorted out til long after the virus is gone I'm afraid and then it may take forever with all the cases they would have to review.
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