It’s just one game against a bottom-of-the-barrel team, but, for all the typical jokes about this, we did legitimately look deeper than usual yesterday.
We are going to be OK
- Thread starter mspaeth
- Start date
I def like us better at 2, 3, 4, (and all 3 positions by a lot) and 5 is a lot closer than expected. Offense at center will be around even. And I like our depth more too.
Well Fisher is presumably better than last season with another year under his belt. Plus Williams. So I’m with you at the 4 spot.
Way too early IMO to think our 5 spot will be as productive as the Payne-Hines combination.
I like Wilcher better than Simpkins (or Williams) but I’m not sure the production will play out that way. TBD.
And don’t discount or forget what AJ did last year at the 3-spot on both sides of the ball. He was often our third best player.
Way too early IMO to think our 5 spot will be as productive as the Payne-Hines combination.
I like Wilcher better than Simpkins (or Williams) but I’m not sure the production will play out that way. TBD.
And don’t discount or forget what AJ did last year at the 3-spot on both sides of the ball. He was often our third best player.
Just laughed out
Thinking Mike Williams would easily start is a hilariously bad take.
We are very weak at PG right now. Parker is not a PG and the offense did not run better with him on the floor last night. Jones is not great either. It's Petro or bust at this point.
At the 2/3 we will be good.
We are thin and lack depth up-front against any of the better teams. Copeland is a big boy; Fisher can hold his own; but beyond that we better rebound as a team.
I thought our defense looked elite and we have long athletes this year who at least for one night bought into playing good team defense. Granted it's St. Peters but you can tell that we will be ok on that side of the ball.
At the 2/3 we will be good.
We are thin and lack depth up-front against any of the better teams. Copeland is a big boy; Fisher can hold his own; but beyond that we better rebound as a team.
I thought our defense looked elite and we have long athletes this year who at least for one night bought into playing good team defense. Granted it's St. Peters but you can tell that we will be ok on that side of the ball.
So you'd rather win 85-61?
There's wasn't one BE team that I saw last night who played on the Ball D like hall did
Initial take, albeit after only one game.
Starters:
Copeland - I think he will do very well against the underbelly of the non-conference. Hedged and recovered very well on high ball screens, Sha demands that out of his bigs.
Can he stay out of foul trouble and bring more rebounding to the table against bigger front lines? TBD
Fisher - Always nice to see how players progress under Sha. Was aggressive on 50/50 balls and looked for his shot. Still doesn’t belong at the 4 in the BE.
Anderson - Not surprised. Showed he could score in the BE last year. Was happy with his ability to keep the ball in front of him defensively.
Wilcher - he has the talent to potentially be a higher volume scorer, but I don’t think that’s who he is. Some nights he may get 15+, but I think we are going to see a lot of 8-10 point games where his impact is in other areas to help them win.
Jones - won’t beat a dead horse here. Early results not encouraging in respect to playing the point. But for this team to have long term success he is going to have to contribute in this role. He isn’t going to get a lot of run off the ball on this roster. He needs to be able to play down hill and get to the rim. Let see if Sha can mold him during the OOC. Remember it took Quincy McKnight almost a full year to make this adjustment. Not an easy spot to learn on the job.
Bench - players I project to be in the rotation
Williams - will provide much needed rim protection, but is he a 4 or a 5 on this team? His offense says more face up 4 with occasional rim running. I think a lot more was expected from him than what I saw coming off the bench last night.
Petrovic - clearly the best natural point guard on the roster. Would like to see him get some run with the first unit to better evaluate. Was hesitant and timid looking for his shot. Also did not see a turnstile on defense, but the BE guards will be a different test.
Parker - I don’t see him as a back up PG. Don’t think the offense ran better with him in. However, his relentless ball pressure changed the pace and energy of the game during the 17-0 run. His shot selection is still very questionable. Just like last year, I think Sha will have to get a feel for how Parker is impacting the game on a particular night.
Brown / Thomas / Moore / Wol: All have a chance to fight for spots 9 and 10 in the rotation.
Thomas can shoot.
Loved Moore’s hustle
Wol reminds me of Jacob Dar
Brown looked like the odd man out after 1 game.
the rest of guys are deep end of the bench pieces. Not expecting much until proven otherwise.
Starters:
Copeland - I think he will do very well against the underbelly of the non-conference. Hedged and recovered very well on high ball screens, Sha demands that out of his bigs.
Can he stay out of foul trouble and bring more rebounding to the table against bigger front lines? TBD
Fisher - Always nice to see how players progress under Sha. Was aggressive on 50/50 balls and looked for his shot. Still doesn’t belong at the 4 in the BE.
Anderson - Not surprised. Showed he could score in the BE last year. Was happy with his ability to keep the ball in front of him defensively.
Wilcher - he has the talent to potentially be a higher volume scorer, but I don’t think that’s who he is. Some nights he may get 15+, but I think we are going to see a lot of 8-10 point games where his impact is in other areas to help them win.
Jones - won’t beat a dead horse here. Early results not encouraging in respect to playing the point. But for this team to have long term success he is going to have to contribute in this role. He isn’t going to get a lot of run off the ball on this roster. He needs to be able to play down hill and get to the rim. Let see if Sha can mold him during the OOC. Remember it took Quincy McKnight almost a full year to make this adjustment. Not an easy spot to learn on the job.
Bench - players I project to be in the rotation
Williams - will provide much needed rim protection, but is he a 4 or a 5 on this team? His offense says more face up 4 with occasional rim running. I think a lot more was expected from him than what I saw coming off the bench last night.
Petrovic - clearly the best natural point guard on the roster. Would like to see him get some run with the first unit to better evaluate. Was hesitant and timid looking for his shot. Also did not see a turnstile on defense, but the BE guards will be a different test.
Parker - I don’t see him as a back up PG. Don’t think the offense ran better with him in. However, his relentless ball pressure changed the pace and energy of the game during the 17-0 run. His shot selection is still very questionable. Just like last year, I think Sha will have to get a feel for how Parker is impacting the game on a particular night.
Brown / Thomas / Moore / Wol: All have a chance to fight for spots 9 and 10 in the rotation.
Thomas can shoot.
Loved Moore’s hustle
Wol reminds me of Jacob Dar
Brown looked like the odd man out after 1 game.
the rest of guys are deep end of the bench pieces. Not expecting much until proven otherwise.
I didn’t watch other BE teams last night.
But I do think there will be several others that are equal or better than us defensively over the course of the season. Probably not many, but at least a few. And that’s with our playing style helping us on the defensive end and suppressing the other teams statistical output.
As good as we were defensively last year, there were several other BE teams on our level. I’d expect no different this year with some of the coaches and athletes we have in the league.
But I do think there will be several others that are equal or better than us defensively over the course of the season. Probably not many, but at least a few. And that’s with our playing style helping us on the defensive end and suppressing the other teams statistical output.
As good as we were defensively last year, there were several other BE teams on our level. I’d expect no different this year with some of the coaches and athletes we have in the league.
I think you're right but when you look at points allowed per game last year, only UCONN was a tenth of a point lower than us on average points yielded per game everybody else wasn't that close. Maybe I'm missing something or much, I just hope we have a decent year and we are exciting for the folks who support and for those who show up. I know there are a ton of metrics that are probably more relevant nor am I saying that we are on caliber with UConn or the other good teams. I like the group that will represent us this year knowing it certainly will dramatically change year over year.
Keep posting good stuff Dehere!
I think there’s a bit of an overreaction to the offense in this thread.
agree would like to see Petrovic play with the starters, he should’ve had more than 3 assists if we hit more shots. Great vision and in control.
66 points doesn’t tell the full story. We all know the pace we historically play out under sha, we shot a respectable fg & 3pt % with limited turnover, and no one played over 20 minutes.
66 points is an irrelevant and lazy talking point given the pace of both teams and the minutes distribution.
if the game was closer, they would’ve scored more. If St. Peter’s played at a quicker pace, they would’ve scored more.
Lazy analysis
agree would like to see Petrovic play with the starters, he should’ve had more than 3 assists if we hit more shots. Great vision and in control.
66 points doesn’t tell the full story. We all know the pace we historically play out under sha, we shot a respectable fg & 3pt % with limited turnover, and no one played over 20 minutes.
66 points is an irrelevant and lazy talking point given the pace of both teams and the minutes distribution.
if the game was closer, they would’ve scored more. If St. Peter’s played at a quicker pace, they would’ve scored more.
Lazy analysis
Sorry to disappoint. But it appears that ship has sailed again.
We were at our best when we did it weekly. Allowed for a lot of the fun standard segments we built in. Plus we could really get into the details of the one or two games for that week.
Doing it in larger chunks of games was not the same. I liked the Micro more than the Macro approach. So to do it weekly required time both parties couldn’t commit to.
Lastly, the NIL / Portal landscape has sucked some of the enjoyment out of it all. I will always bleed blue, but this had to be one of the least anticipated seasons in my 30 years of being a fan.
And we have seen it across all fans. We probably had a 60% or more reduction in listeners last year. Less fans are showing up for the game. The message board chatter over the summer was basically non-existent. It’s just a different time. Maybe we make another comeback sometime in the future. Who knows.
We were 15th in the country last year in Evan Miya's defense rankings. UCONN was 6th in the country and St. John's was 8th. No other Big East team was in the top 30.
The prior year, St. John's was 2nd in the country, Marquette 22nd, and a number of other Big East teams in the 30-50 range (Creighton - with Kalkbrenner, UCONN and Xavier - with Sean Miller coaching them). We were 90th in the country by those defensive rankings.
The prior year, UCONN was 4th in the country, Marquette 14th, Villanova (with Neptune) 16th, Providence 23rd, Creighton 24th. We were 29th.
I can't figure out how to check Kenpom's ratings for last year -- probably because I don't have a subscription -- but I'm sure it isn't far off from Miya's defensive efficiency rankings. Which shows we were very good, but so was Uconn and SJU. And, in prior years, Marquette with Shaka was right up there as a top 25 defensive unit in the country from at least those metrics.
I think we will be good defensively because Sha is a good defensive coach, recruits for his style, and because how we play offensively tends to play into our defense. But to say as the other poster did that no one in the league can play defense like us? Well, I think that's a bit premature.
Should be able to just click on the year at the top. Works for me.
We were 15th and UConn was 7th.
So very similar to Miya’s ranking.
Thanks. I see it now. So UConn was 7, SJU 11 and Us 15 defensively last year based on KP rankings. Nova next but well outside the top 30.
There’s not much difference between our starters and bench guys because we have a 4 million budget and Sha wants to play 12 man rotation
Seems to me we are right in the middle of these two posts.
Certainly not a bad way to start the season.
Spot on analysis. Hard to run up scoring when the other team holds onto the ball for 20-30 seconds every possession.
Plus
Was going to say the same thing. It took petes 20 plus secs to even get a shot off.
People need to understand this as well
One major point of emphasis our coach literally said our offense was ahead of our defense. Well in 3 games that couldn’t be further from the truth. At least be honest with the media and fans
Not really true. You can have a great PG and 4 other players that have no offensive talent, can't create their own shots. On the other hand if you have 4 guys who are scorers and a not so great PG the team can still rack up points.
Not necessarily. Most important things for the PG is to protect the ball and also be the stabilizing force at the end of games.
Teams rarely pressed us last year as Clarke could dribble in traffic or find guys to beat the press. His turnovers were actually head scratching sometimes because they were self inflicted in the half court. He also did a great job managing the offense and tempo in the last five minutes with the ability to get off a shot with the clock winding down.
Who does that this year? It’s just not obvious yet.
One of the most important aspects of PG play for Holloway is controlling tempo. He's a stickler for that and one of the reasons a player like Jones is going to struggle learning that style of play.
It's hard enough for a true point, never mind a converted 2G.
It's hard enough for a true point, never mind a converted 2G.
All I'm saying is you don't need a "Great" PG if the other 4 guys can score the ball and create their shots. We have seen where a great point guard passes the ball to guys who are open and can't make 3 pointers or even 2 pointers with any proficiency. Even can't make layups!
I think we have guys better able to score this year.
I think we have guys better able to score this year.
Passing the ball and passing the ball to a guy when they are in the best position to score are two different things. Unless you have guys that can create their shots once they get the ball. That does not describe this roster. Take Copeland who arguably is one of the top three offensive weapons. You've got to get the ball to him where he can convert. He's not a guy that has a repertoire of one on one moves anywhere on the court.
PG is one of the critical positions on the team and especially the way Sha runs his offense like Dan said.
Idk if a site exists that can quantity the amount of “good looks” relative to shooting % (@Fishjam?), but Budd created a lot of good looks last year that we clanged to death despite how easy we were to defend. Plus he was a capable scorer despite not 3PT shot.
Same characteristics Richmond gave us.
Then you consider our records with those two and not, lol. You need such a type bc of how Sha wants to play offense.
Del Jones has no idea what he’s doing right now out there. Petrovic I don’t think can put the ball on the floor and create against power conf teams.
Same characteristics Richmond gave us.
Then you consider our records with those two and not, lol. You need such a type bc of how Sha wants to play offense.
Del Jones has no idea what he’s doing right now out there. Petrovic I don’t think can put the ball on the floor and create against power conf teams.
So why did sha recruit a pg who doesnt fit his style?
He's not a PG, but he is a very talented athlete. With limited NIL money you don't always have the choice to take what you want. Holloway gambled on Jones and to date the result has not been good. But we're one game into the season so let's see how it plays out.
On the other side of the ball Jones is a decent defender. He'll make a contribution there as he learns the PG position from his coach.
On the other side of the ball Jones is a decent defender. He'll make a contribution there as he learns the PG position from his coach.
Just watch the game on replay. It’s really too soon to make any conclusions.
All the observations that have been made here are all correct. Probably the player I was most disappointed in on offense with Parker. Very little discipline and wonder if that put him in timeout.
On the other hand, I love the energy Moore played with on both sides of the ball.
The two big questions I have are:
- How does PG shake out?
- Can Fanta Kabba play quality minutes?
All the observations that have been made here are all correct. Probably the player I was most disappointed in on offense with Parker. Very little discipline and wonder if that put him in timeout.
On the other hand, I love the energy Moore played with on both sides of the ball.
The two big questions I have are:
- How does PG shake out?
- Can Fanta Kabba play quality minutes?
Because Wilcher has never averaged double figures and Jones has scored a lot albeit at a lower level
Jones had only one year in double figures at Radford (alot??).... and only 3.8 ppg at Clemson before transferring.
Their shooting percentages are virtually the same and Wilcher more experience all at high D1 programs.
Conversely, a good pg will create open and easy shots for his teammates and thus those less offensively talented players all of a sudden get easy looks consistently. That’s called running an actual offense compared to what your describing which is the roll the balls out style we’ve played for years relying on players like Powell, Rhoden, Desi, Isaiah, Hazell, Richmond, Davis, etc.
Totally opposite of what I watched Butler do yesterday thru great ball movement and creating open shots.
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