Vandy scholarships
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Public universities are subject to more rules than private ones with regard to when and how scholarships and grants are awarded. We are required to offer up detailed financial reports, whereas private schools can tell public officials/govt folks to pound salt.
Most private schools are still for profit, and responsible to a board, as well as internal rules of compliance, but Vandy has made the commitment to offer full grants to everyone accepted based on their formula for determining a family's ability to pay, explained in greater detail above. They no longer have to justify why they are giving so much grant money to athletes because they offer it to every student who qualifies. They don't have to worry about running afoul of Title IX for the same reasons. They officially only give out 11.7 baseball scholarships per year.
They are the last people who want to see baseball scholarships increased.
As someone else pointed out, that may partially explain why Vandy has, in a very short period of time become an elite baseball program, yet remain an also-ran in sports where they don't have the advantage. Occasionally they are good in basketball, but then you're talking about a sport with just 5 players on the court at any given time, making it much more likely they can field competitive teams.
Many want to credit the Vanderbilt baseball turnaround solely on Corbin being a great coach. But if you look at his track record prior to the big advantage, Vandy was good...much better than they were under the previous coach, but not spectacular. That's why I was not one of those who were really wanting Corbin to be our HC. Not because I was sure he wasn't a great coach, but because I didn't think we could say for sure he was just because they started playing great about the same time they started getting consistently better recruits overall.
Some argued it was because Corbin is an awesome recruiter. Again, I think he may well be, but can't say with much confidence he would be at a school other than Vandy. We just don't know.
Many want to credit the Vanderbilt baseball turnaround solely on Corbin being a great coach. But if you look at his track record prior to the big advantage, Vandy was good...much better than they were under the previous coach, but not spectacular. That's why I was not one of those who were really wanting Corbin to be our HC. Not because I was sure he wasn't a great coach, but because I didn't think we could say for sure he was just because they started playing great about the same time they started getting consistently better recruits overall.
Some argued it was because Corbin is an awesome recruiter. Again, I think he may well be, but can't say with much confidence he would be at a school other than Vandy. We just don't know.
Because Vanderbilt has an endowment of $3,000,000,000 and an enrollment of 12,500. We have an endowment of $400,000,000 and an enrollment of 22,500. Any non-athletic scholarships that don't count against the 11.7 have to be available to all students. The math is pretty simple.
So why doesn't the NCAA look to level the playing field in football?
Also what gives Vandy a leg up is that athlete can receive the need based money without being held the same entrance academic standards as the student population
It works for Vandy in baseball because of the scholarship restrictions. D1 football can offer full ride scholarships to the entire team. If the NCAA tried to limit scholarships to the same degree they do baseball, they'd ruin their cash cow, and get a ton of heat for taking away college opportunities for minorities.
We all know there are a ton of kids playing football in college who would never get admitted based on just their academics.
Nothing about football or basketball will ever be considered a level playing field. Scholarships may be the same but the rules are different for an elite few just as in baseball where an elite few have found a loophole
Because the NCAA has not figured out a way or motivation to check Vandy that does not make it harder for many more schools to be competitive. They have stated publicly they know this helps Vandy in particular, but are OK with it because it helps hundreds of other schools be competitive.
It's a parity play. Vandy is an outlier that allows the rest of the field to tighten up. Baseball is a sport where the truly best team rarely wins the championship anyway, so they probably figure it won't result in something like Vandy winning the CWS so much that it becomes a glaring problem. In the meantime, it does mean SEC teams have to find a way to get past them when Vandy is able to sign a top 5 class year after year after year. It's far from impossible, but it is certainly much more of a challenge.
Because for the most part, baseball players are better students than football players, especially in the south and especially the skilled position football players. It is much more difficult for a gifted football player who is not a gifted student to get into Vandy. To level the playing field to help Vandy in football, they would have to raise entrance requirements for the rest of the SEC to that of Vandy, because Vandy is not going to lower their entrance requirements. Frankly, I would not have a problem with this if the entire NCAA Division 1 schools had same entrance requirements as Duke, Vandy, Virginia, and Norte Dame. Then you would have true student athletes playing football. Level playing field.
But remember how the U of Miami, a private school, achieved success in football in the 80’s and 90’s. They cheated their butts off.
This seems to be a real hot topic fueled by misinformed national writers. Please take a second and read about Opportunity VU. The program began in 2008 (post David Price, Pedro Alvarez, etc). Every student attending Vanderbilt is eligible for it.
https://www.vanderbilt.edu/financialaid/docs/Fall2019FinAidBookley.pdf
“There is no specific income that will automatically qualify a family to receive need- based aid at Vanderbilt. Income is only one consideration when determining eligibility for need-based financial aid. Other significant factors include, but are not limited to family size, number of children in college, private elementary and secondary tuition expenses, and family assets.”
There is a long list of schools that offer this type of aid to all students including Southern Cal, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Rice, Ivy League schools, the Service Academies, Duke, and others. Even UNC and UVA do something.
https://www.cappex.com/articles/match-fit/need-blind-admission-colleges
Many players and students in general still have to take out loans. Even Dansby Swanson had to take out student loans to attend Vanderbilt.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.tennessean.com/amp/28513899
Opportunity VU leveled the playing field for the program when comparing its cost of attendance to the public schools with which it competes. Now most have to pay an amount similar to instate tuition.
https://www.vanderbilt.edu/financialaid/docs/Fall2019FinAidBookley.pdf
“There is no specific income that will automatically qualify a family to receive need- based aid at Vanderbilt. Income is only one consideration when determining eligibility for need-based financial aid. Other significant factors include, but are not limited to family size, number of children in college, private elementary and secondary tuition expenses, and family assets.”
There is a long list of schools that offer this type of aid to all students including Southern Cal, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Rice, Ivy League schools, the Service Academies, Duke, and others. Even UNC and UVA do something.
https://www.cappex.com/articles/match-fit/need-blind-admission-colleges
Many players and students in general still have to take out loans. Even Dansby Swanson had to take out student loans to attend Vanderbilt.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.tennessean.com/amp/28513899
Opportunity VU leveled the playing field for the program when comparing its cost of attendance to the public schools with which it competes. Now most have to pay an amount similar to instate tuition.
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Gotta love those Vandy propagandists. They are persistent and on the lookout to champ down on this talk. Don't buy it. Here's a quick quote from a 2016 interview Kendall Rogers did with then new NCAA managing director of championships and alliances Ron Prettyman. This Q & A was in reference to the advantages school's like Vandy enjoy:
Question: One of the burning questions in college baseball right now is the issue of institutional (need-based) aid and how that creates advantages and disadvantages. What’s your approach on that issue?
Prettyman: You’re right, it’s a big issue, and that’s a great observation. I think there needs to be some rules in place there, but I honestly haven’t monitored that as closely in the past as I am now. But, I agree, there needs to be some sort of consistency across the board from that perspective. I want to make sure some of the loopholes are either limited or completely closed off, making it more difficult to do some of those things that creates advantages. Some things, though, will be harder to push through than others. I don’t really have a firm stance on that issue more than that for now.
And there is this:
Fitt: Don’t Expect Institutional Aid Reform
Aaron Fitt - January 11, 2016
SEE ALSO: ABCA Notebook: Big Changes On Horizon?
NASHVILLE, Tenn. — The rise of Vanderbilt and Virginia to the top of the college baseball world has prompted plenty of indignation from rival coaches about the way those schools and others like Stanford, Rice and North Carolina can use financial aid and/or academic scholarships to supplement their 11.7 athletic scholarships. It’s no secret that Vanderbilt, in particular, has a huge advantage because of its massive amount of institutional aid; it doesn’t even have to sign many players to a National Letter of Intent, because it doesn’t need to give many players any athletic scholarship money at all.
The NCAA’s new baseball head, Ron Prettyman, raised some alarms last week when he told Kendall Rogers, “I want to make sure some of the loopholes are either limited or completely closed off, making it more difficult to do some of those things that creates advantages.”
But that response was out of step with the position of ABCA executive director Craig Keilitz, who represents college baseball’s coaches.
“Being an equivalency sport, we’re always going to have those issues. Schools that have more financial aid, that’s fantastic in the big scheme, because we’re giving more opportunities to student-athletes,” Keilitz said. “Now, it is uneven, and could be construed as unfair, but that’s where we are right now — 11.7 scholarships for 35 student-athletes, that doesn’t add up. So there’s a lot of moving pieces that we need to do to improve our game and give opportunities to young men to get an education and play baseball. It’s a very, very complex situation that there’s no easy answer for.”
Then there's this 2015 excerpt from Ron Wellman, former chairman of the NCAA's Division I baseball committee (appointed in 19988), then until this year the AD at Wake Forest:
Rule exceptions: Endowment
If no private schools ever flourished in baseball, the NCAA might feel compelled to take action. But Vanderbilt, TCU, Rice and Stanford have fielded programs that have thrived in recent seasons; in fact, Vanderbilt happens to be the defending national champion.
The explanation is that all of those schools spend more on academic or need-based scholarships for baseball, at least partly because they can. Wake Forest's total endowment for 2014 was $1.148 billion, which is quite a bit of coin but decidedly less than the endowments of Rice ($5.5 billion), Stanford ($21.4 billion) or even Duke ($7 billion). TCU has invested a larger portion of its $1.4 billion endowment on baseball, but the school most famous for supplementing its baseball scholarships with academic or need-based grants has been Vanderbilt.
"They're well-endowed and so they're able to do things with financial aid based upon need that a lot of other institutions have not been able to do," Wellman said. "And they've been very judicious in the manner in which they've done it."
In 1998, Vanderbilt received the largest gift that had ever been given to an American college or university.
The Ingram Charitable Fund, whose chairwoman, Martha R. Ingram was the daughter, wife and mother of Vanderbilt graduates, donated stock valued at more than $300 million to the school.
"That really turned that university around, really shot that university ahead, "Walter said. "It's not only an athletic issue, it's an academic issue as well. It helps Vanderbilt get top, top students. That's why you see Vanderbilt ranked in the Top 15 of universities because they get a higher yield of the kids they offer because they offer better financial packages.
"There's a direct correlation to endowment and size of packages, and academic scholarships."
Vanderbilt's endowment of $4 billion is only part of the story. What has helped Tim Corbin coach the Commodores into the elite circle of baseball programs has been how willing the school has been to spend money on academic and need-based scholarships and the programs, frameworks and considerations it has established to do so.
Two notable Commodore baseball players of recent seasons have been left-handerDavidPrice (nowwith the Detroit Tigers) and third baseman/first baseman Pedro Alvarez (of the Pittsburgh Pirates). Neither received athletic scholarships while attending Vanderbilt, which freed up money for Corbin to spend on other recruits.
"For schools like Vanderbilt, to use them as the example, the way they assess need-based scholarships is very different than us,'' Walter said.
"Vanderbilt just looks at their income, the income of the custodial parents. So if you get a divorced family situation where the father makes a million dollars a year but they live 51 percent of the time with the mom, who has no income, then it's a full financial-aid situation for that.
"So the point of all that is, for us and the way Wake looks at a person's balance sheet, one of the things they look at is their ability to borrow. So if they have a nice home that they can borrow against...."'
Rule exceptions: Endowment
If no private schools ever flourished in baseball, the NCAA might feel compelled to take action. But Vanderbilt, TCU, Rice and Stanford have fielded programs that have thrived in recent seasons; in fact, Vanderbilt happens to be the defending national champion.
The explanation is that all of those schools spend more on academic or need-based scholarships for baseball, at least partly because they can. Wake Forest's total endowment for 2014 was $1.148 billion, which is quite a bit of coin but decidedly less than the endowments of Rice ($5.5 billion), Stanford ($21.4 billion) or even Duke ($7 billion). TCU has invested a larger portion of its $1.4 billion endowment on baseball, but the school most famous for supplementing its baseball scholarships with academic or need-based grants has been Vanderbilt.
"They're well-endowed and so they're able to do things with financial aid based upon need that a lot of other institutions have not been able to do," Wellman said. "And they've been very judicious in the manner in which they've done it."
In 1998, Vanderbilt received the largest gift that had ever been given to an American college or university.
The Ingram Charitable Fund, whose chairwoman, Martha R. Ingram was the daughter, wife and mother of Vanderbilt graduates, donated stock valued at more than $300 million to the school.
"That really turned that university around, really shot that university ahead, "Walter said. "It's not only an athletic issue, it's an academic issue as well. It helps Vanderbilt get top, top students. That's why you see Vanderbilt ranked in the Top 15 of universities because they get a higher yield of the kids they offer because they offer better financial packages.
"There's a direct correlation to endowment and size of packages, and academic scholarships."
Vanderbilt's endowment of $4 billion is only part of the story. What has helped Tim Corbin coach the Commodores into the elite circle of baseball programs has been how willing the school has been to spend money on academic and need-based scholarships and the programs, frameworks and considerations it has established to do so.
Two notable Commodore baseball players of recent seasons have been left-handerDavidPrice (nowwith the Detroit Tigers) and third baseman/first baseman Pedro Alvarez (of the Pittsburgh Pirates). Neither received athletic scholarships while attending Vanderbilt, which freed up money for Corbin to spend on other recruits.
"For schools like Vanderbilt, to use them as the example, the way they assess need-based scholarships is very different than us,'' Walter said.
"Vanderbilt just looks at their income, the income of the custodial parents. So if you get a divorced family situation where the father makes a million dollars a year but they live 51 percent of the time with the mom, who has no income, then it's a full financial-aid situation for that.
"So the point of all that is, for us and the way Wake looks at a person's balance sheet, one of the things they look at is their ability to borrow. So if they have a nice home that they can borrow against...."'
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Admittedly I haven’t paid much attention to your posts before yesterday and won’t give them much time going forward. But it was pretty obvious to me - and pretty much everyone else except you - that you acting like a jack *** doesn’t seem to require provocation. Having said that, I would agree with you that when someone does fan your flames even ever so slightly, it doesn’t take long for you to go completely off the deep in.
i hope you have a better day today than yesterday.
"Thank God I don't look to this or any message board for any sort of personal validation or sense of worthiness. That would be truly pathetic."
It kind of feels like ya do.JS
Yep, as a public school, everything you do has to be pretty much open komono. Private schools can give money to who they please, and as stated, really only answer to their own board of trustees given they are not using public tax dollars.
And to be blunt, the NCAA does not care enough about college baseball to ensure that its fair. None of these inequities would ever be allowed in football and basketball. In those sports, if you recruit a guy and sign him, he has to count against the allotted scholarships for that sport regardless of how you fund his education. In baseball you can save the 11.7 if you can come up with an alternative scholarship for a player.
They also view it as "well, they're crap at football, so what if they grease the wheels a bit on baseball?"
Not going to be a popular take, but the scholarship may be an unfair advantage, but there are many other factors to why all this talent is going to Vandy .
1. MLB success... Alabama effect. You want to get to the NFL, go to Bama. You want to get to the big leagues, go to Vandy. It's definitely a perception because of the success Vandy guys are having in the bigs right now.
2. If I am a first round talent, I am not worried about student loan debt anyway. A top of the 6th round pick is slotted for a $300k bonus. What I am interested in is my health and quality of life for the next few years.
3. Nashville and Austin are the two cities that jump out as awesome cities to go to college in... We may all love Starkville, but Nashville is an awesome recruiting tool.
4. A Vanderbilt education is world class. Not quite Stanford, but close.
The thing that they are lacking compared to the other big SEC schools is passion/fanbase. I am not sure a lot of kids grow up dreaming of playing college baseball like they do in football. So for most guys it becomes a decision about the best way to get to the next level and Vandy is at the top of the list right now.
So while giving out 35 full rides won't hurt us... I would rather see the 2022 Brewers win the World Series with Rookie of the Year Ethan Small on the mound and MVP candidate Brent Rooker batting cleanup. That will help more than the schollies when we are talking about top talent.
1. MLB success... Alabama effect. You want to get to the NFL, go to Bama. You want to get to the big leagues, go to Vandy. It's definitely a perception because of the success Vandy guys are having in the bigs right now.
2. If I am a first round talent, I am not worried about student loan debt anyway. A top of the 6th round pick is slotted for a $300k bonus. What I am interested in is my health and quality of life for the next few years.
3. Nashville and Austin are the two cities that jump out as awesome cities to go to college in... We may all love Starkville, but Nashville is an awesome recruiting tool.
4. A Vanderbilt education is world class. Not quite Stanford, but close.
The thing that they are lacking compared to the other big SEC schools is passion/fanbase. I am not sure a lot of kids grow up dreaming of playing college baseball like they do in football. So for most guys it becomes a decision about the best way to get to the next level and Vandy is at the top of the list right now.
So while giving out 35 full rides won't hurt us... I would rather see the 2022 Brewers win the World Series with Rookie of the Year Ethan Small on the mound and MVP candidate Brent Rooker batting cleanup. That will help more than the schollies when we are talking about top talent.
1. The only reason Vandy ever got to this point is because of the scholarship advantage they have.
2. First round talent is going to be near a full scholarship wherever they go to school. The real advantage the scholarships give Vandy is the depth of 30 or so full scholarships vs maybe 15-18 (everyone can find at least some additional scholarships to give).
3. Can't argue with this.
4. Most Vanderbilt athletes are going to Peabody College, not Vanderbilt University.
2. First round talent is going to be near a full scholarship wherever they go to school. The real advantage the scholarships give Vandy is the depth of 30 or so full scholarships vs maybe 15-18 (everyone can find at least some additional scholarships to give).
3. Can't argue with this.
4. Most Vanderbilt athletes are going to Peabody College, not Vanderbilt University.
This is the second time I've heard this over the past few days. What exactly does this mean? The Bagley College of Engineering is still a part of Mississippi State University. Is Peabody similar? If so, I wouldn't think anyone would feel the need to make that distinction. Can someone clear this up for me?
He's saying they aren't going through the same rigors the other students do, which is true to an extent, but not as big of a discrepancy as he says. Therein lies Vandy's limitation. They have to get kids into school. It's the same thing that hurts them in football. So what they end up with is really smart kids on their baseball, most of them really rich who can pay their way, or really poor and get the big scholarships.
Some may say, "Well Stanford has a good football team", yeah they do, but they are able to find a bunch of smart kids and good coaches somehow. In general, the private schools' football teams suck. Stanford, Duke, Vandy, TCU, Baylor.....in general they all have to hit it real lucky with a coach.
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They dont recruit the same type student for baseball. Former pitching coach derek johnson:
[FONT="]Former Commodores assistant coach Derek Johnson, now the Chicago Cubs' minor league pitching coordinator, said he looked for an ACT score in the 22-23 range when evaluating players. That's far lower than the standards for a non-athlete Vanderbilt student, but a good deal higher than the standards on the NCAA Eligibility Center's sliding scale--where a 3.0 high school GPA would require a 52 sum score on the ACT, or an average of 17.3 per section.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Former Commodores assistant coach Derek Johnson, now the Chicago Cubs' minor league pitching coordinator, said he looked for an ACT score in the 22-23 range when evaluating players. That's far lower than the standards for a non-athlete Vanderbilt student, but a good deal higher than the standards on the NCAA Eligibility Center's sliding scale--where a 3.0 high school GPA would require a 52 sum score on the ACT, or an average of 17.3 per section.[/FONT]
It's not just that, it is the fact they also get free ride to a perceived prestigious school that would cost most of the rest of their students nearly $50k per year to attend. That's an advantage as well.
Hey guys, here’s a hard truth:
Yes, Vandy has ways around the 11.7, but frankly, so do we. We use them every year, all the time.
We aren’t losing recruits because they can’t afford to come to State. Our recruiting is at the top of the game every year and will only get better now that the new DNF is a showpiece.
The reason we can’t beat Vandy is that they have an established coach who knows how to recruit (and sign) elite pitching. Elite.
We’re heading in that direction, but yesterday we matched up a guy who a year ago was on his way out of baseball against a soon-to-be top 5 pick in the MLB draft. We brought a knife to the gunfight...a really sharp knife, with a long blade made of Valerian steel, but...still a knife.
Yes, Vandy has ways around the 11.7, but frankly, so do we. We use them every year, all the time.
We aren’t losing recruits because they can’t afford to come to State. Our recruiting is at the top of the game every year and will only get better now that the new DNF is a showpiece.
The reason we can’t beat Vandy is that they have an established coach who knows how to recruit (and sign) elite pitching. Elite.
We’re heading in that direction, but yesterday we matched up a guy who a year ago was on his way out of baseball against a soon-to-be top 5 pick in the MLB draft. We brought a knife to the gunfight...a really sharp knife, with a long blade made of Valerian steel, but...still a knife.
Well heck, EVERY school has ways around the 11.7 because EVERY school can use other scholarships other than the 11.7 to supplement. The issue is Vandy has many more ways around it because they have a large endowment to draw from to provide scholarships and they aren't accountable to the State like a public school would be to ensure that the same non-athletic scholarship they are providing an athlete is available to any student. So lots of money with no checks and balances equals BIG advantage.
And I never said it was. All I'm saying is that the legislature falls all over itself about how much more money they're going to give schools every time the casinos and lottery came up, but yet we have the same education problems. If you're going to sell it, then sell it for what it is and don't give me the same BS time after time about "how much it's going to benefit education" when we all know better.
Well, MSU and Auburn have scholarships to offer, they just aren't lottery based like a lot of the other states have. Its the most hypocritical thing that Mississippi has casinos all over but no lottery. Of course, at this point I'm sure the casinos work hard to stop a state wide lottery from happening.
How did they assemble the 2007 team, that was arguably their best team talent wise?
Title IX applies only to institutions who receive federal aid.
The NCAA may require Vanderbilt to comply with Title IX rules for athletics, I'm not sure. But if they are not receiving federal education funds, Title IX is as meaningless to Vanderbilt as it is to your local Mississippi segregation academy for elementary and high school (who, by the way, can siphon federal funds away from your local public school).
The NCAA may require Vanderbilt to comply with Title IX rules for athletics, I'm not sure. But if they are not receiving federal education funds, Title IX is as meaningless to Vanderbilt as it is to your local Mississippi segregation academy for elementary and high school (who, by the way, can siphon federal funds away from your local public school).
I hear you, but are you saying that we have lost elite baseball recruits because the cost of attending State was too high and we couldn’t offer a scholarship? I don’t think that’s the case.
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