[h=1]With scholarship limit, college baseball careers come with a cost[/h]https://www.omaha.com/sports/with-s...cle_9c27f775-3564-5051-b7f9-f258c8c37fd1.html
Vandy scholarships...
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“The financial part of this is ridiculous,” Coastal Carolina coach Gary Gilmore says. “Moms and dads are spending almost $100,000 in four years, whereas football and basketball and a lot of women’s sports have tons of full scholarships. I’m asking guys that turned into professional minor leaguers to take 25 percent (of a scholarship). It’s just not fair.”
But Morrison did get good grades, enabling him to access academic scholarships. And his South Carolina residency provided a tuition discount. When Coach Gilmore offered him a partial scholarship before his senior year, Morrison turned it down. It made more sense to help an out-of-state teammate.
Morrison is $40,000 in debt, but he’s been around long enough to know that’s nothing in college baseball. Student-loan bills are only scratching the surface of college baseball’s scholarship problem.
He’s witnessed recruiting battles turn into bidding wars. One school offers a 25-percent scholarship, a rival offers 30, then the kid goes back and asks for more. Pretty soon a 17-year-old kid feels like a negotiator.
“As a teenager, it’s the most stressful thing in the world,” Morrison says. “There’s so many numbers and little promises. Like, ‘Hey, we can’t give you money this year, but we’ll give it to you next year. By the time you’re this good, we’ll give you this. If you produce this much, we’ll give you this.’
“It’s like the fricking NFL. It really is.”
He’s witnessed big schools bring 50 players to fall practice, half of whom are walk-ons. The fall season basically acts as a tryout for scholarship money. When an out-of-state player loses his roster spot (and scholarship check), his only option is to transfer back home.
“Honestly, being a college baseball coach is the greatest training you could ever have to be a GM of a big-league club,” Coastal Carolina’s Gilmore said. “You’re moving shells and pieces. It’s insane.”
Said Virginia coach O’Connor: “I’ve got Excel spreadsheets on my computer, seriously, for the next four years forecasting scholarship dollars. It’s impossible.”
Arizona’s Johnson says it’s a “really delicate balance” between assembling the best possible team and being fair to your players.
You need good students who can supplement their baseball money with academic aid. You need in-state kids who can afford to accept small scholarships. You need your big-money investments (usually pitchers) to perform. You need to find good values.
“Any time you get good players on lower scholarships, it helps you extend your payroll, so to speak,” Johnson says. “That’s usually when you have your best teams.”
Only 27 of the 35 roster spots are eligible for scholarship assistance. Each player on scholarship must receive at least 25 percent. Do the math, and you’ll find that most players are in the 25- to 50-percent range.
Offering a full ride is high-risk, but coaches occasionally take the chance on a stud pitcher (or a star bat like Kris Bryant) who turns down the draft. If the kid buckles under the burden, the program is in a hole.
Gilmore once opposed full-tuition scholarships. But the longer he coaches, the more he believes it’s the only way to level the playing field. A coach shouldn’t have to nickel-and-dime teenagers. Let him sell his school, not the fattest check.
“It’s almost like a used car salesman’s approach,” Gilmore says. “If we’re recruiting against one another, and you’re giving the guy this much money and I’m giving him this much money, we have to try to talk him into it.
“It’d be nice knowing that you’re offering the same thing as the guy down the street.”
He’s witnessed 18-year-old prospects who don’t have the maturity for 120 games per season sign a contract anyway because a $50,000 signing bonus beats a $20,000 tuition bill. Two years later, they’re out of baseball entirely.
He’s heard of teams being torn apart by scholarship distribution. The subject is taboo in most clubhouses, but what happens when starters on a 25-percent scholarship find out the freshman backup is making 50 percent?
His buddy and fellow walk-on, Mike Morrison, has his eyes on coaching. He’s witnessed the cutthroat business of college baseball. But when it all works out, when five or six walk-ons develop into starters and eight or nine in-state players take leadership roles and all the labels are forgotten, there’s nothing like it.
“I always tell those guys I’ll pay debt the rest of my life to play college baseball,” Morrison says. “It’s a crappy mindset, but that’s the mindset you gotta have.”
But Morrison did get good grades, enabling him to access academic scholarships. And his South Carolina residency provided a tuition discount. When Coach Gilmore offered him a partial scholarship before his senior year, Morrison turned it down. It made more sense to help an out-of-state teammate.
Morrison is $40,000 in debt, but he’s been around long enough to know that’s nothing in college baseball. Student-loan bills are only scratching the surface of college baseball’s scholarship problem.
He’s witnessed recruiting battles turn into bidding wars. One school offers a 25-percent scholarship, a rival offers 30, then the kid goes back and asks for more. Pretty soon a 17-year-old kid feels like a negotiator.
“As a teenager, it’s the most stressful thing in the world,” Morrison says. “There’s so many numbers and little promises. Like, ‘Hey, we can’t give you money this year, but we’ll give it to you next year. By the time you’re this good, we’ll give you this. If you produce this much, we’ll give you this.’
“It’s like the fricking NFL. It really is.”
He’s witnessed big schools bring 50 players to fall practice, half of whom are walk-ons. The fall season basically acts as a tryout for scholarship money. When an out-of-state player loses his roster spot (and scholarship check), his only option is to transfer back home.
“Honestly, being a college baseball coach is the greatest training you could ever have to be a GM of a big-league club,” Coastal Carolina’s Gilmore said. “You’re moving shells and pieces. It’s insane.”
Said Virginia coach O’Connor: “I’ve got Excel spreadsheets on my computer, seriously, for the next four years forecasting scholarship dollars. It’s impossible.”
You need good students who can supplement their baseball money with academic aid. You need in-state kids who can afford to accept small scholarships. You need your big-money investments (usually pitchers) to perform. You need to find good values.
“Any time you get good players on lower scholarships, it helps you extend your payroll, so to speak,” Johnson says. “That’s usually when you have your best teams.”
Only 27 of the 35 roster spots are eligible for scholarship assistance. Each player on scholarship must receive at least 25 percent. Do the math, and you’ll find that most players are in the 25- to 50-percent range.
Offering a full ride is high-risk, but coaches occasionally take the chance on a stud pitcher (or a star bat like Kris Bryant) who turns down the draft. If the kid buckles under the burden, the program is in a hole.
Gilmore once opposed full-tuition scholarships. But the longer he coaches, the more he believes it’s the only way to level the playing field. A coach shouldn’t have to nickel-and-dime teenagers. Let him sell his school, not the fattest check.
“It’s almost like a used car salesman’s approach,” Gilmore says. “If we’re recruiting against one another, and you’re giving the guy this much money and I’m giving him this much money, we have to try to talk him into it.
“It’d be nice knowing that you’re offering the same thing as the guy down the street.”
He’s witnessed 18-year-old prospects who don’t have the maturity for 120 games per season sign a contract anyway because a $50,000 signing bonus beats a $20,000 tuition bill. Two years later, they’re out of baseball entirely.
He’s heard of teams being torn apart by scholarship distribution. The subject is taboo in most clubhouses, but what happens when starters on a 25-percent scholarship find out the freshman backup is making 50 percent?
His buddy and fellow walk-on, Mike Morrison, has his eyes on coaching. He’s witnessed the cutthroat business of college baseball. But when it all works out, when five or six walk-ons develop into starters and eight or nine in-state players take leadership roles and all the labels are forgotten, there’s nothing like it.
“I always tell those guys I’ll pay debt the rest of my life to play college baseball,” Morrison says. “It’s a crappy mindset, but that’s the mindset you gotta have.”
If anyone cares to really know how they do it, here is a good analysis of how the Vandy tuition model works as compared to state schools. The notion that they have 35 kids on full rides is ridiculous. Several former players have commented about the student loans they ended up with when they graduated. As an example, Carson Fulmer could have had a full ride to Florida as a native of that state through their lotto funds, but he took out quite a few loans to pay his expenses.
https://www.anchorofgold.com/2019/5/30/18645077/opportunity-vanderbilt-an-explainer
Obviously, the model has advantages and disadvantages, but the OV is a tuition model for all VU students. They don't have "in-state" or "bordering state" breaks to lean on, and with a huge starting point, it was almost impossible for them to recruit. Corbin did have the #1 class before the 2009 changes, so credit him there. Right now, he is getting kids in large part to the fact that he is winning championships and getting guys drafted. They have nice player facilities, but clearly they can never compete with a fan experience like Dudy Noble or Baum. I toured DNF last month- my son is a freshman at MSU- and MSU now has a big advantage in the facility race. Vandy could never do that, nor do they have the need to. To somewhat level the playing field, they have to sell Corbin, the school, and a competitive Cost of Attendance.
Best of luck in the tournament.
The fact that Corbin has been to Omaha only 3 times in his career at Vandy is absurd.
Yes, one of those resulted in a national championship and another title appearance. But guess how many schools have been to Omaha at least 3 times in that time frame?
Arizona (3)
Arizona State (4)
Arkansas (5)
Cal State Fullerton (7)
Florida (8)8)
Florida State (4)
Georgia (3)
Louisville (4)
LSU (7)
Miami FL (6)
North Carolina (7)
Oregon State (6)
Rice (4)
S. Carolina (5)
TCU (5)
Texas (7)
Texas Tech (3)
UCLA (3)
Virginia (4)
Oh, and Mississippi State (3). That's 20.
Yes, one of those resulted in a national championship and another title appearance. But guess how many schools have been to Omaha at least 3 times in that time frame?
Arizona (3)
Arizona State (4)
Arkansas (5)
Cal State Fullerton (7)
Florida (8)8)
Florida State (4)
Georgia (3)
Louisville (4)
LSU (7)
Miami FL (6)
North Carolina (7)
Oregon State (6)
Rice (4)
S. Carolina (5)
TCU (5)
Texas (7)
Texas Tech (3)
UCLA (3)
Virginia (4)
Oh, and Mississippi State (3). That's 20.
BS. Linked article trying really hard to make the OV edge seem less an advantage by comparing scholarship money only. Nothing I read in that article says Vandy can't and doesn't give grants in excess of the scholarship allotment. So what if they eat up their official scholarship money more quickly...they can give as much aid as the recruits family needs, often way more. When they hit their athletic scholarship limit, they just go to free money from grants.
They can offer, "preferred walk-on" spots to as many kids as they want, and give them no-loan, no-debt non-athletic scholarship money that pays for everything, and if they don't designate any of it, "athletic scholarship" they aren't a, "counter".
Let me clarify my understanding. Vandy can offer 11 100% athletic scholarships + 1 70% (or 97.5% athletic scholarships to 12 players). Then they can offer as much free money as a family could need for the 23 other players on their roster, calling them, "preferred walk-ons". They can even go well beyond the 35, so long as those above 35 are not on the official roster. The net effect is Vandy has tremendous latitude to offer near-full rides to pretty much any recruit's family who needs it. In fact, the kids families who do pay much of anything are families that make enough money that they don't give much of a damn if their wealth is enough to require what average folks would consider a significant family contribution.
Again...Vandy is not required to, "count" any players who receive zero athletic scholarship money. That means they can offer MUCH higher %'s of athletic scholarship money to some kids because they have a way to offer as much funding needed for the rest via grants.
That's a HUGE advantage.
They can offer, "preferred walk-on" spots to as many kids as they want, and give them no-loan, no-debt non-athletic scholarship money that pays for everything, and if they don't designate any of it, "athletic scholarship" they aren't a, "counter".
Let me clarify my understanding. Vandy can offer 11 100% athletic scholarships + 1 70% (or 97.5% athletic scholarships to 12 players). Then they can offer as much free money as a family could need for the 23 other players on their roster, calling them, "preferred walk-ons". They can even go well beyond the 35, so long as those above 35 are not on the official roster. The net effect is Vandy has tremendous latitude to offer near-full rides to pretty much any recruit's family who needs it. In fact, the kids families who do pay much of anything are families that make enough money that they don't give much of a damn if their wealth is enough to require what average folks would consider a significant family contribution.
Again...Vandy is not required to, "count" any players who receive zero athletic scholarship money. That means they can offer MUCH higher %'s of athletic scholarship money to some kids because they have a way to offer as much funding needed for the rest via grants.
That's a HUGE advantage.
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Good points, but you failed to mention they will play their home games in a near vacant stadium.
Its absurd the physical talent that Vandy has had in their baseball program the last 5 years and most of that is because they have been able to get more players than anyone to turn down million plus dollar deals from the draft. The program is attractive NOW because it has become so strong but it all started because of the financial incentives they can offer some of these players that a public school, and even less well to do private schools cannot. If it weren't for that, even with Corbin, Vandy baseball would still be an afterthought.
Instate kids should always be the foundation for our program. We also waive out-of-state plenty (although I do think we should advertise this more).
So is it your contention that Tim Corbin is the biggest underachiever in the history of college coaching? Because if he really does have between 10 ~ 23 scholarships (or basically equivalent of scholarships) more than everyone else for 10 years now, and has only 3 CWS and 1 NC to show for it, he honestly should be fired immediately for gross underachievement and waste of resources. Vandy should be dominant on the scale of Bama football under Saban at an absolute minimum if they have that working for them plus the academic side plus Nashville in their recruiting process. I’m sure they use those grants to help with maybe 1 ~ 2 guys per year, and yeah that is an advantage. But its not like nobody on the team is paying tuition.
By the way, I’m not saying that they CAN’T do what you are suggesting within the rules. But you have to remember that this is still just college baseball. Making $175 - $200k just appear out of thin air for some B- student to be the guy on the end of the bench in a non-revenue sport is a lot easier said than done. Just because they can legally do what you are suggesting doesn’t mean they are doing it to the extent that you claim.
80% of the Arkansas gets in-state tuition as a starting point, which is around $10k. Georgia and Florida get any in-state kid for basically free through their lotto funding, yet nobody talks about that. I suspect most of the SEC has at least half of their roster from in state, which is a "Huge Advantage".
With a starting point of $40k and without the needs based model, VU basically has to give a 75% scholarship just to reach the starting point of the rest of the SEC. It would be impossible to compete on those terms.
Some of you guys are out here acting like Corbin is freaking Will Wade or Hugh Freeze (or Cannizaro). The guy runs one of the cleanest, best programs in the country. So what if he only made it to the semifinals in Omaha 3 times in the last 8 seasons. There have been some disappointments, but 95% of the country would turn backflips to have him at the helm.
We all talk about Georgia and Florida. I agree on Corbin though. Vandy was a nobody before he got there.
Easy. No one has accused him of dirty. We just said he has a big advantage. Kendall rogers says he has more scholarship advantages than anyone in the country. Butch thompson has said the same.
and we had a thread on this a couple of weeks ago discussing why vandy, tamu, florida, ark and georgia were all some if the easier jobs
and we had a thread on this a couple of weeks ago discussing why vandy, tamu, florida, ark and georgia were all some if the easier jobs
I get the same feeling with Alabama’s QB. Somebody will draft him first overall and wonder why he’s unable to do the same things in the NFL that he accomplished in college.
I think we did okay okay in the coaching search. Pulling a coach from a private school is risky.
I think we did okay okay in the coaching search. Pulling a coach from a private school is risky.
As I have posted before, if you look at Corbin's track record before the NCAA started changing the scholarship rules, it wasn't spectacular. Decent, but not great. Then the NCAA started changing things...largely in response to Title IX compliance issues. That just happens to be around the time Corbin started to do better in baseball.
Then, when Vandy rolled out Opportunity Vanderbilt, eliminating all loans in favor of grants, and also not even considering a family's assets or ability to secure loans, etc., the baseball program has taken off. Consider this:
In the 6 years Corbin was HC at Vandy prior to the implementation of OV, he had never taken them to a CWS, and had made just one Super Regional (a year they came in 4th in the East). Vandy had one great year, 2007 where they came in first in the East, but did not make it out of the regional. In that time they finished (in the East) 1st once, 2nd once, 3rd once and 4th three times.
3 years after OV was implemented, Vandy finished 1st and went to the CWS for the first of 3 times in 5 years, winning the CWS once and runner-up once.
So, yes, I think Corbin is a little overrated. A very good coach, but overrated. I believe this because his Vandy teams, prior to OV, were a middle-of-the-pack SEC program.
As far as your hyperbole about, "he should be fired for not dominating on a Saban scale" goes, baseball is a very different sport. For most position players, there are a ton of outstanding players available. The talent gap is not near what it is for football. But elite pitching is a difference-maker. Vandy isn't the only school that get's elite pitching, but they do seem to get way more than their fair share. They are in a position to pretty much cover the entire cost to attend for the ones they really want. They can have such incredible depth that "missing" on one or two doesn't doom their season.
Elite pitchers typically demand and get full scholarships, so getting just one puts public schools in a rough spot, since that one scholarship might have been used to get 4 other recruits who would accept 25%, or 5 that would have settled for 20%, etc.
If Vandy uses OV to get just 2 more elite pitchers, that's a massive advantage in baseball. They can do it for as many as they want.
As far as grades go, athletes get considered on a scale. Also, private institutions are not bound by the same rules as public schools when ti comes to admissions.
Then, when Vandy rolled out Opportunity Vanderbilt, eliminating all loans in favor of grants, and also not even considering a family's assets or ability to secure loans, etc., the baseball program has taken off. Consider this:
In the 6 years Corbin was HC at Vandy prior to the implementation of OV, he had never taken them to a CWS, and had made just one Super Regional (a year they came in 4th in the East). Vandy had one great year, 2007 where they came in first in the East, but did not make it out of the regional. In that time they finished (in the East) 1st once, 2nd once, 3rd once and 4th three times.
3 years after OV was implemented, Vandy finished 1st and went to the CWS for the first of 3 times in 5 years, winning the CWS once and runner-up once.
So, yes, I think Corbin is a little overrated. A very good coach, but overrated. I believe this because his Vandy teams, prior to OV, were a middle-of-the-pack SEC program.
As far as your hyperbole about, "he should be fired for not dominating on a Saban scale" goes, baseball is a very different sport. For most position players, there are a ton of outstanding players available. The talent gap is not near what it is for football. But elite pitching is a difference-maker. Vandy isn't the only school that get's elite pitching, but they do seem to get way more than their fair share. They are in a position to pretty much cover the entire cost to attend for the ones they really want. They can have such incredible depth that "missing" on one or two doesn't doom their season.
Elite pitchers typically demand and get full scholarships, so getting just one puts public schools in a rough spot, since that one scholarship might have been used to get 4 other recruits who would accept 25%, or 5 that would have settled for 20%, etc.
If Vandy uses OV to get just 2 more elite pitchers, that's a massive advantage in baseball. They can do it for as many as they want.
As far as grades go, athletes get considered on a scale. Also, private institutions are not bound by the same rules as public schools when ti comes to admissions.
Like I said. Very good coach. But hard to call him great with the advantages he has, and the fact his results improved dramatically in correlation with NCAA restrictions on scholarships and OV being implemented, providing Corbin and Vandy with a, "get out of jail free card" they never have to return to the deck.
All that above about “elite pitchers” and that being the difference in their teams. Where are they this year? This year they 6th in the SEC and 35th nationally in team ERA. 7th in the SEC and 29th nationally in team WHIP. They have good pitchers, probably a few potential 1st rounders, but they aren’t elite as a composite staff. At least not right now they aren’t. They are middle of the pack in the SEC and therefore are seemingly being outrecruited lately in the SEC by at least a few schools (even if it was for just one or two classes). We have been leaps and bounds better this year on the mound than they have, and we only have two guys on our whole staff (Small and Liebelt) that have consistently produced for us from the start of the season until now. So they aren’t invincible in the “recruiting pitchers” department, and therefore in the recruiting game in general. Yes, they do have more advantages than other SEC schools, thats not whats up for debate. The magnitude of the benefits they are receiving on the recruiting trail from those advantages is certainly debatable.
And as far as my “hyperbole”, under no circumstances can you say that they have at least 10 more scholarships than everyone else and talk about how huge the advantage is, then say, “well baseball is a unique sport and there’s more parity in recruiting yadda yadda yadda”. That kind of diminishes your entire argument. And I’m still having trouble seeing how a “very good coach” (overrated or not) only gets 3 CWS trips and 1 NC in 10 years with these game-changer funds available and all this talent. Put another way, that is the same number of NC’s as Coastal Carolina. Either Corbin is somewhere in the average to not-very-good range as a coach, the advantage isn’t that big, or they aren’t using the advantage they have to near the extent that you say they are. There is no way for all of your arguments to be true at the same time.
Don't feel like going into a detailed response now, but will later. For now, I'll just say, getting some of the nation's most elite pitchers does not mean they always work out. It also does not account for injuries, etc.
I didn't say they have 10 more scholarships. In fact, they have the same 11.7 as everyone else. But they do have the ability to go completely outside those 11.7 scholarships because of OV. They can do that as much as they want...they just can't have more than 35 on their official roster.
AS I understand the scholarship rules as it pertains to, "counters", if a school gives any portion of an athletic scholarship to a player, then other aid they receive is also supposed to be "counted" toward the percentage of scholarship they receive. But, if a school gives ZERO athletic scholarship, instead offering players a, "preferred walk-on" spot, then those players do not count at all against the 11.7. Therefore, Vandy can offer much higher percentages to the recruits they do use AS's for because they can use OV to get extremely-talented recruits.
Look, I know it pains you to take anything I post as legit, but all you have to do is look at the quotes from college coaches everywhere who complain about it. Just research it and you'll find any number of sources from AD's, coaches, baseball experts, etc., who all say Vandy has a great advantage in this regard.
I didn't say they have 10 more scholarships. In fact, they have the same 11.7 as everyone else. But they do have the ability to go completely outside those 11.7 scholarships because of OV. They can do that as much as they want...they just can't have more than 35 on their official roster.
AS I understand the scholarship rules as it pertains to, "counters", if a school gives any portion of an athletic scholarship to a player, then other aid they receive is also supposed to be "counted" toward the percentage of scholarship they receive. But, if a school gives ZERO athletic scholarship, instead offering players a, "preferred walk-on" spot, then those players do not count at all against the 11.7. Therefore, Vandy can offer much higher percentages to the recruits they do use AS's for because they can use OV to get extremely-talented recruits.
Look, I know it pains you to take anything I post as legit, but all you have to do is look at the quotes from college coaches everywhere who complain about it. Just research it and you'll find any number of sources from AD's, coaches, baseball experts, etc., who all say Vandy has a great advantage in this regard.
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