Upper Tier Quad 1 True Road Games

[Montana81]

Of course they'd likely have more than 2 losses. And instead of being #1 on KenPom by 5 full points, they'd probably be somewhere 1-5 or 6 ... still in the running for a 1 or 2 seed.

They’d be in the running for a 1 seed but not the lock they are currently. That’s the problem i and i think a lot of others have.

They’ve been a top 5 program for the better part of a decade now. But they’re kind of like mid major Duke in that they now benefit from certain double standards and media favoritism. (though they certainly werent immune to the infamous duke whistle).

 

[The_Answer1313_rivals]

To me, it's not so much about preperation, it's about awarding a team, like Gonzaga, with a 1 seed when their best competition in 3 months was St Mary's and everyone thinking that's equal to what the competitors from the power 5 conferences deal with.

Gonzaga is very good, but if they were in a power 5 conference, they woukd have more than 2 losses.

I agree with this in that the rules for awarding a 1 seed to the Zags is very different than the rules for awarding a 1 seed to say any power conference team.

And that in turn does give them an easier road.

And yeah I think it's reasonable to think if they were in the power conference they'd have more losses than they currently do. I think they still end up at or near the top in most of the conferences but yeah the simple fact you are playing more games vs competition that can knock you off would give them additional losses.

But just looking at this year I'm not sure it makes much a difference. Like if they are in the SEC and say they have 2-3 losses currently, they are probably still a 1 seed.

 

[The_Answer1313_rivals]

But the conversation is about two different things here.

This started off as "well the Zags will never win because they aren't battle tested" to "well the Zags don't deserve a 1 seed based on resume"

These are two entirely different things.

 

[Padsfs07]

44 away or neutral and none (other than Washington) were against the bottom half of any Top 6 conference.

You played Texas A&M at least twice in that span and they were not good (14-18 and 16-14) in the two seasons you played them. I'm not going to look up the rest, as you are clearly being disingenuous, especially combining 'away' and 'neutral' which are vastly different environments.

 

[Lempface]

Glad you guys feel the need to start dozens of threads a week (like this one) about lowly Gonzaga and their schedule.
-----
Some cherry picked stats

Most NCAA TOURNAMENT wins since 2015
Gonzaga 20, Nova 17, UNC 16, Duke 15, Kentucky 13, Michigan 13, Virginia 11, Baylor 9
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Most FINAL FOUR wins since 2017
UNC 2, Nova 2, Virginia 2, Baylor 2, Gonzaga 2, Michigan 1, TexasTech 1, Kentucky 0, Duke 0, Kansas 0

Championships Gonzaga: 0
Wins over top 4 seeds? 0

 

[Bluesnky]

Yeah I'm sorry but I can't buy the fact that a weak conference schedule hurts a team like Gonzaga when they have been to not one but two title games in recent years.

Conversely, I've watched the Big 10 last year get a ton of teams in and the claim was oh best conference they are battled test and well they did nothing. Or the fact that the Big 12 has been ranked the best conference in America for god knows how many years. How have they done in the tournament?

UK played in a weak SEC conference so many years under Cal. That didn't seem to hurt our tournament progress.

This is something about people just say and I'm sure even believe. But there's no truth to it. There's no evidence whatsoever.

It doesn’t hurt them. It may impede their ability to improve the second half of the season, but it doesn’t hurt them during tournament games.

I would argue that playing in a bad conference means they are much less of a known commodity going into the tournament. I also suspect that their break neck pace of play combined with the overwhelming advantage in size, skill, and athleticism over every single team in their conference juices their efficiency numbers.

I would also point out that their two runs to the championship game have involved Elite 8 and Final Four matchups against teams seeded 6, 7, and 11 (twice!). None of this will ever approach anything scientific or statistically significant, but it is eyebrow raising for me.

 

[kyjeff1]

Of course they'd likely have more than 2 losses. And instead of being #1 on KenPom by 5 full points, they'd probably be somewhere 1-5 or 6 ... still in the running for a 1 or 2 seed.

It’s possible. I'm not saying Gonzaga isn’t good, but that easy schedule gives them a huge advantage.

UK lost at Tennessee the other night, that one loss, at the #4 defensive team in the country, knocked UK off the 1 line and somehow moved KU ahead of UK. KU lost to Texas the week prior.

Every loss is damaging right now and when you have to play true road games at places like UT, Arkansas, Alabama, Auburn and LSU, you're going to lose some of those.

 

[GoZags_rivals83639]

Championships Gonzaga: 0
Wins over top 4 seeds? 0

Top 25 recruiting classes prior to 2017. 1.

And I am guessing you weren’t a math or stats major if you come up with “0” for GU wins over Top 4 seeds.

 

[GoZags_rivals83639]

You played Texas A&M at least twice in that span and they were not good (14-18 and 16-14) in the two seasons you played them. I'm not going to look up the rest, as you are clearly being disingenuous, especially combining 'away' and 'neutral' which are vastly different environments.

Ken Pomeroy explains it better than I can …

https://www.ksl.com/article/50342950/kenpom-putting-gonzagas-domination-in-perspective

 

[Padsfs07]

Yeah I'm sorry but I can't buy the fact that a weak conference schedule hurts a team like Gonzaga when they have been to not one but two title games in recent years.

Conversely, I've watched the Big 10 last year get a ton of teams in and the claim was oh best conference they are battled test and well they did nothing. Or the fact that the Big 12 has been ranked the best conference in America for god knows how many years. How have they done in the tournament?

UK played in a weak SEC conference so many years under Cal. That didn't seem to hurt our tournament progress.

This is something about people just say and I'm sure even believe. But there's no truth to it. There's no evidence whatsoever.

I believe it did hurt us if your goal is to win the championship. We were exposed multiple times in the tournament, running into a team (UConn backcourt, 2011), or scheme (WVU, 2010), or environment (close game against a good team, 2015) that we hadn't faced in the regular season.

But regarding Gonzaga's conference, I don't think it hurts them at all in terms of getting deep into the field. They get a primo seed placement, and, thus, go further in the tournament. However, they've lost multiple tournaments running into athletic, physical teams like UNC, 2017, Texas Tech, 2019, or Baylor, 2021. Easy to say this though with 20/20 hindsight.

 

[UKWildcats1987]

Glad you guys feel the need to start dozens of threads a week (like this one) about lowly Gonzaga and their schedule.
-----
Some cherry picked stats

Most NCAA TOURNAMENT wins since 2015
Gonzaga 20, Nova 17, UNC 16, Duke 15, Kentucky 13, Michigan 13, Virginia 11, Baylor 9
-----
Most FINAL FOUR wins since 2017
UNC 2, Nova 2, Virginia 2, Baylor 2, Gonzaga 2, Michigan 1, TexasTech 1, Kentucky 0, Duke 0, Kansas 0

Nice cherry picked stats for sure.

All those wins and 0 titles...that is a tragedy of wasted opportunities.

 

[Padsfs07]

Top 25 recruiting classes prior to 2017. 1.

And I am guessing you weren’t a math or stats major if you come up with “0” for GU wins over Top 4 seeds.

As you know, Gonzaga was heavily into the transfer and international markets, even recently. Those players don't register as well (or at all) on most recruiting sites.

Wiltjer, Wesley, John Williams, Williams-Gross, Mathews, Clarke, Woolridge, Gilder, Nembhard, and Bolton were all major transfers. Pangos, Karnowski, Sabonis, Tillie, Hachimura, Ayayi, and Petrusev were all major pickups in Int'l circles.

 

[Padsfs07]

The only team in the top 25 of the NET rankings to have more upper tier Q1 true road games than Kentucky is Villanova, which has 6 currently. Along with Kentucky, there are a handful (TTU, Texas, Tennessee) that have 5.

The NET really should split out another category for Q1 true road games. Q1+ or something.

 

[Original_Irish]

This is not true. Playing tough road games prepares a team for the tournament. It's why we see the Zag's not able to close the deal, they play no one home or away.

The Big 10 has been considered a great conference for years now. Tons of quality road environments in conference. But they haven't won an NC in over 20 years.

 

[Lempface]

Top 25 recruiting classes prior to 2017. 1.

And I am guessing you weren’t a math or stats major if you come up with “0” for GU wins over Top 4 seeds.

My bad, it was top 3 seeds, and you have 1 win. Over Utah lol.

 

[Lempface]

The Big 10 has been considered a great conference for years now. Tons of quality road environments in conference. But they haven't won an NC in over 20 years.

I didn't say that tough road wins with crazy environments = championship. But if you don't play any games like that, you aren't winning a title.

 

[GoZags_rivals83639]

As you know, Gonzaga was heavily into the transfer and international markets, even recently. Those players don't register as well (or at all) on most recruiting sites.

Wiltjer, Wesley, John Williams, Williams-Gross, Mathews, Clarke, Woolridge, Gilder, Nembhard, and Bolton were all major transfers. Pangos, Karnowski, Sabonis, Tillie, Hachimura, Ayayi, and Petrusev were all major pickups in Int'l circles.

You are correct ... the last decade or so the talent has been there (even if the recruiting rankings weren't). The first decade of Gonzaga's "cute little run" was made up of lunch pail guys who were from towns so small they didn't even have a McDonalds. This year's team features two 5 Star McDonald's All Americans coming off the bench (7th and 8th guys in the rotation ... Hunter Sallis and Nolan Hickman).

 

[GoZags_rivals83639]

My bad, it was top 3 seeds, and you have 1 win. Over Utah lol.

Yet somehow the Zags have muddled their way to 20 tourney wins since 2015 (most in the NCAA) and 6 straight Sweet 16's or beyond. And that win over 3 seed Utah was by 11 seed Gonzaga (after handily beating 6 seed Seton Hall).

Other than that, good point.

 

[Lempface]

Yet somehow the Zags have muddled their way to 20 tourney wins since 2015 (most in the NCAA) and 6 straight Sweet 16's or beyond. And that win over 3 seed Utah was by 11 seed Gonzaga (after handily beating 6 seed Seton Hall).

Other than that, good point.

Yeah top tier program you got there, can't beat any teams that are considered the top 12 of the tourney. Man I loved watching Baylor smack the **** outta you last year. GLORIOUS!

 

[GoZags_rivals83639]

Nice cherry picked stats for sure.

All those wins and 0 titles...that is a tragedy of wasted opportunities.

0 matches the Pac 12's titles since 1997 and as has been pointed out below ... the Big (can't count past) 10's titles since 2001.

But they've sure been a lot closer (to a title) than UK has been the last decade or so.

 

[BigTimeBecks3500]

The UK fanbase's hate for Gonzaga has always puzzled me. They've got a nice little program, they've been to a couple of title games since we've been to the Final Four - I get it. But they're a speck on the landscape in the big scheme of things. If we meet them in the tournament, let's talk about them. Until then, they don't even deserve our respect, let alone hate. They deserve to be ignored.

 

[fatguy87]

The NET really should split out another category for Q1 true road games. Q1+ or something.

That's a category we probably wouldn't have been for in 2011.

In fact, that year we were downplaying the importance of road wins lol

 

[GoZags_rivals83639]

The UK fanbase's hate for Gonzaga has always puzzled me. They've got a nice little program, they've been to a couple of title games since we've been to the Final Four - I get it. But they're a speck on the landscape in the big scheme of things. If we meet them in the tournament, let's talk about them. Until then, they don't even deserve our respect, let alone hate. They deserve to be ignored.

Seems like a fair take to me.

 

[bbnkat02]

"Usually?"

Well. This year ain’t over so….

 

[The_Answer1313_rivals]

I don’t know. Title or no title I think they should get some credit.

I mean this is a mid major school. And as of now they are consistently a top team in D1.
In a sport that was once dominated by blue bloods.

I think Few should get a ton of credit for that. Now they are actually getting some big time recruits.

FWIW I don’t think the fan base hates Gonzaga. Rather they seem them getting preferential treatment in terms of seeding. Quad 1 games matter to everyone but the Zags don’t have as many they don’t get dinged. That’s where most issues arise.

Not the team in general tho. I don’t know how anyone could be a fan of college basketball and not like the way they play and their brand of ball

 

[UK67KU59]

The only things I have against the Zags are the following .

1. They get seeded higher than they should
2. They didn’t beat UNC in the ‘17 title game.

 

[Montana81]

The UK fanbase's hate for Gonzaga has always puzzled me. They've got a nice little program, they've been to a couple of title games since we've been to the Final Four - I get it. But they're a speck on the landscape in the big scheme of things. If we meet them in the tournament, let's talk about them. Until then, they don't even deserve our respect, let alone hate. They deserve to be ignored.

It’s because they have the potential to take a 1 seed from us they don’t deserve. That’s why kentucky fans hate gonzaga.

 

[BigTimeBecks3500]

It’s because they have the potential to take a 1 seed from us they don’t deserve. That’s why kentucky fans hate gonzaga.

Man, who's to say who deserves what? That 1 seed is within our span of control - win out and we get it. Don't lose to ND and we are probably on the 1 line right now. Cal has made deep runs from the 4 and 8 lines here. If we come out and take care of business @ Arky, we should be fine. There is zero chance we are the 2 in Zags' region, so both of us will have to cut through at least 4 teams before we'd see each other.

Also in this case I'd argue that they aren't taking a 1 seed from us. We are fighting for the 4th one seed, Zags have lots of daylight between where they are and the 2nd one seed.

 

[UKWildcats1987]

0 matches the Pac 12's titles since 1997 and as has been pointed out below ... the Big (can't count past) 10's titles since 2001.

But they've sure been a lot closer (to a title) than UK has been the last decade or so.

That's really not accurate. You got your asses kicked by Baylor last year so I guess if you want to just say you have been to 1 more title game the past 10 years (if we are excluding 2012 as we have to in order to cherry pick the stats in your favor), then so be it...but UK vs UCONN was a close game as was UNC vs Gonzaga. You have the Baylor *** kicking...congrats. They do not hand out any more trophies for losing in the title game big time than they do for UK's 2015 Final Four loss.

 

[The_Answer1313_rivals]

I think the deserves argument is because power conference teams are based on resume. But given the lack of opportunities for Gonzaga, they aren't really held to that same standard.

So based on how the NCAA gives seeds out, I think it's fair to question whether or not they deserve it.

That being said:

College {Football|Basketball|Baseball} Ranking Composite

I mean that's a lot of 1s by independent polls and systems. Only two below 2 and none below 4. So in that regard, maybe they do deserve the 1 seed they are getting.

 

[Montana81]

Man, who's to say who deserves what? That 1 seed is within our span of control - win out and we get it. Don't lose to ND and we are probably on the 1 line right now. Cal has made deep runs from the 4 and 8 lines here. If we come out and take care of business @ Arky, we should be fine. There is zero chance we are the 2 in Zags' region, so both of us will have to cut through at least 4 teams before we'd see each other.

Also in this case I'd argue that they aren't taking a 1 seed from us. We are fighting for the 4th one seed, Zags have lots of daylight between where they are and the 2nd one seed.

Gonzaga doesn’t deserve a 1 seed right now imo. They have a better record than us because they’ve played 13 games against really bad teams and the “good” teams they’ve played haven’t been as good.

Yes, they’re the team with a 1 seed right now that everyone should be questioning. Not Kansas

 

[BigTimeBecks3500]

I think the deserves argument is because power conference teams are based on resume. But given the lack of opportunities for Gonzaga, they aren't really held to that same standard.

So based on how the NCAA gives seeds out, I think it's fair to question whether or not they deserve it.

That being said:

College {Football|Basketball|Baseball} Ranking Composite

I mean that's a lot of 1s by independent polls and systems. Only two below 2 and none below 4. So in that regard, maybe they do deserve the 1 seed they are getting.

If you believe in analytics, this year's Zags are one of the top handful of teams of the entire KenPom era. They're very good. But they are still an upstart with no history and as such we shouldn't get ourselves bent out of shape over it. We've got this lone Zags fan in here riling us all up for nothing.

 

[BigCat241]

Gonzaga doesn’t deserve a 1 seed right now imo. They have a better record than us because they’ve played 13 games against really bad teams and the “good” teams they’ve played haven’t been as good.

Yes, they’re the team with a 1 seed right now that everyone should be questioning. Not Kansas

They are #1 in Kenpom and Net which adjusts for your schedule. And they are #1 in the AP. They 100% deserve a 1 seed.

 

[BigTimeBecks3500]

They are #1 in Kenpom and Net which adjusts for your schedule. And they are #1 in the AP. They 100% deserve a 1 seed.

They might be the most obvious #1 overall seed since UK in 2015.

 

[kyjeff1]

I think Few should get a ton of credit for that. Now they are actually getting some big time recruits.

FWIW I don’t think the fan base hates Gonzaga. Rather they seem them getting preferential treatment in terms of seeding. Quad 1 games matter to everyone but the Zags don’t have as many they don’t get dinged. That’s where most issues arise.

Not the team in general tho. I don’t know how anyone could be a fan of college basketball and not like the way they play and their brand of ball

I'll drink to that. Then probably NOT drive home.

JK

 

[Runt#1969]

To me, it's not so much about preperation, it's about awarding a team, like Gonzaga, with a 1 seed when their best competition in 3 months was St Mary's and everyone thinking that's equal to what the competitors from the power 5 conferences deal with.

Gonzaga is very good, but if they were in a power 5 conference, they woukd have more than 2 losses.

^^THIS^^

precisely.

 

[Kingslayer07]

They had a couple of guys taking time to return from injuries. They’re pretty healthy now and a damn good team. I sure would not want UK to face them in a S16 game in Philly.

Philly? Hell, I want to avoid them anyhwere. Hopefully they keep winning and get on that 2 line.

 

[kyjeff1]

They might be the most obvious #1 overall seed since UK in 2015.

Agree to disagree, I don't think this Gonzaga team is all that good at all and it's because their guards and 3 spot are good, but not great.

Not only that, but all your tough games were on neutral courts and you lost 2 of them, one was close enough to actually be considered a home game.

Plus, the metrics don't compensate for the road environments in your 6 whole road games against mid major competition.