UNC are the biggest cheaters in all of college basketball. Nothing anyone did in the 50's compares to this systematic cheating. They're scum. Their fans are now ashamed to even say they're fans of them. It's worse than anything in my lifetime. Pure trash.
UNC files it's response
- Thread starter carbonlib23
- Start date
1. Technically UNC has not declared the classes bogus, which is the problem. It is up to institutions to do the right thing in instances like this and self report the transgressions. Typically from the university president who would put the institution/academic reputation above any athletic endeavors. Not so with the beyond any shadow of a doubt morally bankrupt UNC. When Chancellor Holden (I may have name wrong), who was neck deep in the blatant fraud, cheating, and cover up resigned about 3 or 4 years ago UNC had just the chance to do restore the universities reputation. Bring in an "outsider" with a mandate to clean up the mess. Instead they hired the puppet Folt who took the denial and cover up to a whole new level. Interestingly enough though, UNC has described the situation as academic fraud numerous times in their reports and communications to SACS. Folt has even said (I can only assume she slipped up) that it is both an academic and an athletic problem. But for some reason they feel compelled to tell the NCAA to STFU and mind their own business. The current system relies on "self policing", but if that honor system is thrown in the trash by any member institution then the NCAA should have every right to clean up the mess. They've done just that very thing many, many times for far, far less cheating.
2. In many instances of athletes taking these classes, nothing (key word = nothing) was taught. The classes didn't meet, there was NO interaction with a professor, and to put the cherry on top the plagiarized papers that athletes "turned in" at the end of the semester were graded (for lack of a better word) by an administrative secretary. Think about that for a little while.
3. You are right, the NCAA does not have the resources to thoroughly vet each universities athletic curriculum or other aspects of athletic departments functions. What they can do though is punish those that are caught blatantly cheating with a punishment that is commensurate with the cheating. Like UNC in this example and like they have numerous times at other universities. It's called deterrent. It's not cost prohibitive to have a police car at every traffic signal, or outside every bank. But when someone is blatantly caught running a red light or robbing a bank, they are summarily punished.
4. See #2. In the world of college level academics, or any level for that matter, I think that more than satisfies the definition of fictitious.
As stated earlier Rashad McCants was on ESPN with his transcript and said he made Deans List without going to class or anything . I'd say that qualifies as proof the class was fictitious or we could ignore that like UNC and the NCAA have .
My guess is these classes would not have existed at UNC if they had no athletic programs. Call it what you like, but these classes existed for athletes who were marginal academically. You obviously can't have classes of this nature for athletes only (that would be a smoking gun for the NCAA), so of course they were open to all students.
The NCAA has enough to go on here to hammer them if they are so inclined.
My other thought is UNC certainly had an unfair advantage over any school that had key players lose court/field time due to academics.
This is as shameful as any other rule breaking situation in the history of collegiate sports with maybe the exception of trying to cover up a murder.
The NCAA has enough to go on here to hammer them if they are so inclined.
My other thought is UNC certainly had an unfair advantage over any school that had key players lose court/field time due to academics.
This is as shameful as any other rule breaking situation in the history of collegiate sports with maybe the exception of trying to cover up a murder.
Your questions actually reveal how little you've looked into the entire matter. Consider reading what UNC actually did before attempting to play the moral equivalency game.
I agree with everything you say. Would the common person believe UNC cheated? Yes. And I think most people do.
The issue is the first sentence. I have read this board long enough to know the temperature. People need to understand UNC has no intention or upside to declaring the classes bogus. So they will fight this.
Why would UNC declare them bogus? If they do, the athletic departments get hit, both financially and with their reputation. And those may be the small penalties.
Then you have any student who took the classes suing the university for failure to educate/monitor the curriculum. Imagine 200 students, who thought they graduated, coming back to the university to take another class. The cost of the lawsuits, compensation lost, on and on.
UNC has taken the correct position to stay quiet and declare the NCAA has no business monitoring their classes. You would be hard pressed to find a school that would bend over and simply accept any penalties.
Not saying it is right, just saying the reality of the situation.
You can see it how you choose. Some see it your way, some don't. I can live with that.
Tell that to Georgia and Jim Harrick or the hundred other universities that got busted over academic violations in the past,funny how it doesn't fall under NCAA regulation when their darling UNCHEATs is involved or Duke,every University in the NCAA should refuse to play duke or UNC unless they get hammered for the 60 years of cheating they have both been involved in.
47% is the same percentage that every university uses to get around "special benefits" rules. Go look at the percentage of athletes in the athlete student dorms, for example - it's always 47 or 48%. Any time athletes, which are, at most, a single digit percentage of a school's population, comprise 47% of a group, it's intended for them.
Whether they should or not is up for debate -
The undeniable fact is that they've attempted to regulate it in the past, in spite of how hard it is to enforce - and they've invented concepts like "strict liability" to validate their punishments and gloss over just how far they're extending their authority.
They've demolished lesser programs for far lesser infractions.
But now, when the time comes to prove that they're for real - that they're not just picking on the little guys - they fall apart in the most predictable way possible.
One of the golden schools absolutely knocked it out of the park - UNC took all the proven academic scandals we've ever witnessed in CBB and rendered them adorable little footnotes of history - Tiny specks in the shadow of the most embarrassing, brazen affair that we've ever witnessed in the sport.
And yet, we're going to see nothing from it.
That is the issue. Why back away now?
The Memphis stuff was way less serious.
The JoePa stuff was way further outside their jurisdiction.
But they brought down the hammer in those cases.
So why are they pussing out now? We have a suspicion as to why and it pisses us off.
[/QUOTE]
Not trolling a thread. I am giving my opinion on an a topic.
Should I ignore other posters when we are discussing
I fail to understand you. Not an insult, I just fail to understand.
In one post, if I am reading it right, you basically say I should not respond to conversation. But then you have continued to question even the most minor comments I make. Perhaps you can explain yourself. And I will just hang up and listen.
Jkwo - I think it is even worse than you are saying.
Go back and look at what the NCAA has done lately:
Cam Newton. Caught dead with a player whose father asked for money. NCAA looked the other way saying the player was not involved.
Ohio State - players trading jerseys for tattoos/money. The NCAA told the school the players could play in the bowl game but would face punishment the next season.
Duke - multiple players paid or given loans. Nothing to see.
Florida State football team all cheated in classes - pick a few here and there to serve a game suspension, but many were served against lesser opponents.
It is just what the NCAA does now a days. They are running scared of the P5 schools with talk every now and then about a breakaway.
Keep in mind the mission of the NCAA - Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.
Govern fair competition on the field, court, playing surface.... and to make education available for athletes.
There is not much more that can be said.
1. UNC is taking the right position for UNC, by stating the NCAA has no place in its academics.
2. Most everyone, including me, believe UNC cheated and should be punished.
3. The NCAA will run scared of UNC and give East Carolina State the death penalty.
My whole position is that UNC is taking the correct approach by saying " Come on my campus and prove it".
More than likely there is a tenured professor, tenured Associate Dean, tenured Dean, tenured President of the AFAM, and then a President of the UNC that would like to protect their jobs.
Go back and look at what the NCAA has done lately:
Cam Newton. Caught dead with a player whose father asked for money. NCAA looked the other way saying the player was not involved.
Ohio State - players trading jerseys for tattoos/money. The NCAA told the school the players could play in the bowl game but would face punishment the next season.
Duke - multiple players paid or given loans. Nothing to see.
Florida State football team all cheated in classes - pick a few here and there to serve a game suspension, but many were served against lesser opponents.
It is just what the NCAA does now a days. They are running scared of the P5 schools with talk every now and then about a breakaway.
Keep in mind the mission of the NCAA - Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.
Govern fair competition on the field, court, playing surface.... and to make education available for athletes.
There is not much more that can be said.
1. UNC is taking the right position for UNC, by stating the NCAA has no place in its academics.
2. Most everyone, including me, believe UNC cheated and should be punished.
3. The NCAA will run scared of UNC and give East Carolina State the death penalty.
My whole position is that UNC is taking the correct approach by saying " Come on my campus and prove it".
More than likely there is a tenured professor, tenured Associate Dean, tenured Dean, tenured President of the AFAM, and then a President of the UNC that would like to protect their jobs.
1. I don't agree that the correct position is to trash your whole university's reputation and crap all over the your faculty in order to save some athletic achievements.
2. Many schools have done just this, to include UK in the late '80's. It is my strong opinion that UK's current president, Dr. Capilouto, would not even remotely stand for academics to be thrown under the bus and he would absolutely let the chips fall where they may, basketball be damned. In fact, I can only think of one school that would not do this in the face of completely incriminating evidence of their shameful cheating to win some freakin' games not to mention the shameful treatment of their student athletes by shamming them out of a college education. Oh, and also the equally despicable actions of trying to cover it up. Maybe other schools would do it but we have no basis of that because no other school has ever systematically cheated so much for so long. This is completely uncharted territory that is totally out of the scope of anything college athletics has ever seen. There is no precedent for this at all. Only UNC has shown such audacity to ultimately play themselves the victim in this whole charade.
3. It's the reality of the position that UNC has chosen to take, not the reality that the rest of the NCAA member schools live in.
gave up on anything being done to unc** long ago; had a brief moment of hope when some things were being "reported," but, alas.....as the old adage says: "If it's too good to be true, it probably is."
unc** going to come out smelling like a rose, and the talking heads will be extolling the virtues of the ncaa** doing the "right thing"
unc** going to come out smelling like a rose, and the talking heads will be extolling the virtues of the ncaa** doing the "right thing"
Ted Tatos @BlueDevilicious 15m15 minutes ago
What UNC claims in its response to NCAA's NOA vs. NCAA Pres. Emmert's testimony to US Senate in July 2014.pic.twitter.com/vz5E9h5HSU
What UNC claims in its response to NCAA's NOA vs. NCAA Pres. Emmert's testimony to US Senate in July 2014.pic.twitter.com/vz5E9h5HSU
Why waste all the money and time going through this farce of an investigation, they cheated, they know they cheated, the NCAA knows the no good SOB'S cheated and we all know the gutless and corrupt NCAA is not going to do a dam thing about it , except make sure the UNCheat got the reply to to the charges down pat . I guess lack of institutional control doesn't mean what it used to . Might as well move on
You are kidding, right? Someone who is too stupid to go to a university can go to UNC******* and have a class graded by a secretary and you say it is none of the NCAA's business. If you really believe this, you are an idiot. If not you are a UNC**** apologist or one of their paid staff to improve/cover up their real image. There is no "fine line" when classes could be created for a single student for the purpose of keeping a player eligible. That is the advantage gained. Other schools have players declared ineligible all the time, some lost scholarships because the the so-called academic progress standards, but UNC**** was keeping everyone eligible with fake classes. They also took too many of the independent study classes, took them when they didn't meet the criteria, and without the fake classes didn't even qualify as full time students. In short, UNC***** is a blight on college athletics aided and abetted by the corrupt NCAA.
Any university that was punished for any academic violation ought to get their wins and scholarships back and have the NCAA refund the money taken from them. In fact, the NCAA totally ignored the easily provable wheels for heels and other clear violations for which other schools would be pilloried.
Last edited:
here's the latest and it's surprising in that the NCAA apparently didn't find anything wrong at unc at least according to the internal memo mentioned down the article
"UNC finally goes on defense against NCAA
The University of North Carolina this week signaled to the NCAA that six years of taking a knee is enough, and sent a warning shot over Indianapolis that it was lawyered up and prepared to defend itself against allegations concerning its athletics programs that it says are inaccurate, inflated and wayward.
Athletics Director Bubba Cunningham, in speaking to the media about the university’s response to the NCAA’s Notice of Allegations, said UNC had failed to meet its own standards by allowing “classes that didn’t meet our rigor,” but said that was an academic issue, and none of the NCAA’s business.
The university also pointed out that massive reforms have been put in place, and apologies extended.
Cunningham hinted that the university wasn’t anxious to self-impose sanctions, apparently believing that the firing of an entire football staff, the forced departures of an athletics director and chancellor, banning itself from two post-season bowl games in football, and forfeiting athletic scholarships, was sufficient penance.
What Cunningham didn’t mention as part of the penalty already paid was six years of largely inaccurate media coverage, which the university’s athletics programs, especially the money-making football and men’s basketball teams, have weathered remarkably well. But that coverage established a false narrative that continues to this day — and is why those paying attention part-time expect UNC to get the electric chair.
Except no, the African and Afro-American Studies Department that disproportionately attracted athletes to its classes was not created to keep them eligible to compete. And no, not a single UNC coach has been shown to have steered a student into the AFAM classes or to ask that a change of a grade be made to keep an athlete on the field or court. And no, not a single coach or anyone else tied to UNC’s athletics program has even been accused of providing a recruit a benefit if they would sign the dotted line to bring their skills to the Chapel Hill campus.
If any of that had happened, then one or more of the nearly double-digit investigations would have revealed it given the access university officials provided, especially to emails.
UNC copped to some of the allegations, specifically that a faculty chairwoman who advised women’s basketball players provided improper assistance to students and suggested a single grade change during a seven-year period. Jan Boxill, the accused who was subsequently fired, continues to claim scapegoat status.
But the university rejected the NCAA’s allegation of loss of institutional control, the biggest threat to the athletics programs, though basketball and football appear safe from debilitating sanctions.
Fortifying UNC’s case is this Perry Mason moment: A UNC official while in Indianapolis by chance discovered an internal NCAA memo that warns staff it is in tricky territory, saying nothing had been found that “would validate that there was a systematic effort within the African and African American Studies Department motivated by the desire to assist student-athletes with maintaining their eligibility, either in how the courses were created, taught and/or how the grades awarded.”
A hearing is likely in the fall before the NCAA’s Committee of Infractions, which will determine penalties. And while UNC officials appear confident, the NCAA can be arbitrary — and might feel compelled to come down hard because of UNC’s well-known brand and the public’s expectations based largely on ignorance of the truth.
It’s clear, however, that UNC is off the mat and is prepared to go to court if the NCAA overreaches. And the Tar Heels, as their opponents know, have always been good at winning."
http://robesonian.com/opinion/90372/unc-finally-goes-on-defense-against-ncaa
"UNC finally goes on defense against NCAA
The University of North Carolina this week signaled to the NCAA that six years of taking a knee is enough, and sent a warning shot over Indianapolis that it was lawyered up and prepared to defend itself against allegations concerning its athletics programs that it says are inaccurate, inflated and wayward.
Athletics Director Bubba Cunningham, in speaking to the media about the university’s response to the NCAA’s Notice of Allegations, said UNC had failed to meet its own standards by allowing “classes that didn’t meet our rigor,” but said that was an academic issue, and none of the NCAA’s business.
The university also pointed out that massive reforms have been put in place, and apologies extended.
Cunningham hinted that the university wasn’t anxious to self-impose sanctions, apparently believing that the firing of an entire football staff, the forced departures of an athletics director and chancellor, banning itself from two post-season bowl games in football, and forfeiting athletic scholarships, was sufficient penance.
What Cunningham didn’t mention as part of the penalty already paid was six years of largely inaccurate media coverage, which the university’s athletics programs, especially the money-making football and men’s basketball teams, have weathered remarkably well. But that coverage established a false narrative that continues to this day — and is why those paying attention part-time expect UNC to get the electric chair.
Except no, the African and Afro-American Studies Department that disproportionately attracted athletes to its classes was not created to keep them eligible to compete. And no, not a single UNC coach has been shown to have steered a student into the AFAM classes or to ask that a change of a grade be made to keep an athlete on the field or court. And no, not a single coach or anyone else tied to UNC’s athletics program has even been accused of providing a recruit a benefit if they would sign the dotted line to bring their skills to the Chapel Hill campus.
If any of that had happened, then one or more of the nearly double-digit investigations would have revealed it given the access university officials provided, especially to emails.
UNC copped to some of the allegations, specifically that a faculty chairwoman who advised women’s basketball players provided improper assistance to students and suggested a single grade change during a seven-year period. Jan Boxill, the accused who was subsequently fired, continues to claim scapegoat status.
But the university rejected the NCAA’s allegation of loss of institutional control, the biggest threat to the athletics programs, though basketball and football appear safe from debilitating sanctions.
Fortifying UNC’s case is this Perry Mason moment: A UNC official while in Indianapolis by chance discovered an internal NCAA memo that warns staff it is in tricky territory, saying nothing had been found that “would validate that there was a systematic effort within the African and African American Studies Department motivated by the desire to assist student-athletes with maintaining their eligibility, either in how the courses were created, taught and/or how the grades awarded.”
A hearing is likely in the fall before the NCAA’s Committee of Infractions, which will determine penalties. And while UNC officials appear confident, the NCAA can be arbitrary — and might feel compelled to come down hard because of UNC’s well-known brand and the public’s expectations based largely on ignorance of the truth.
It’s clear, however, that UNC is off the mat and is prepared to go to court if the NCAA overreaches. And the Tar Heels, as their opponents know, have always been good at winning."
http://robesonian.com/opinion/90372/unc-finally-goes-on-defense-against-ncaa
I agree. It is the reality UNC from their own perspective. It is also the most cost effective response for UNC.
Even if they don't have video proof of a coach walking a player to a non existent class that has a neon sign saying "imaginary" , failure to monitor is something they can't sidestep . For decades they failed to find a humongous fraud involving their athletes on campus , it's one thing to have a player do something off campus but if UNC can't control what happens in their classrooms then they have a total and absolute lack of control . Never mind that there was lots of clustering through multiple coaching staffs , they never even looked into it if we are to believe they aren't the designers of it all .
Let's all be honest , UNC created this as a way to cheat and want to say that if the NCAA doesn't specifically prove someone knew then it's not their fault . The NCAA nailed Marshall for the same thing and told Marshall they should have known and that was for a fraction of the longevity . How does this go on for decades and nobody found out and came forward , the players themselves are guilty and didn't come forward .
Let's all be honest , UNC created this as a way to cheat and want to say that if the NCAA doesn't specifically prove someone knew then it's not their fault . The NCAA nailed Marshall for the same thing and told Marshall they should have known and that was for a fraction of the longevity . How does this go on for decades and nobody found out and came forward , the players themselves are guilty and didn't come forward .
Let us not forget "wheels for heels" that the NCAA has not looked at. Unless Fats provided free cars to regular students, then this alone is a violation
if it hasn't been investigated then you should report them to the NCAA but i'm pretty sure those ncst guys have probably sent it to them already. but since pj hairston was dismissed from the team it probably died there i imagine. i thought i read that pj and the other guy was using the cars to put up fliers and posters advertising parties and that fats was paying them so they decided it was ok or something. not sure though.
who knows - a loophole was found and used. There was actually enough reported in the media to warrant action. They got around it.
This is what ticks me off - yes, UK has had it's share of scandal, but we paid the price (and, really a very heavy price) for it. We have a right to expect the same for any and everyone else. This isn't happening at unc** - and it never will.
So, any of you tarheel lurkers reading this thread, don't throw that UK cheating ish up to us - we know our history - and probably yours - better than you ever will. We also know we paid our penalties and have been clean of any major violations for nearly 30 years. You got away with murder and you know damn well you cheated worse than any other school ever has. Screw unc** and the ncaa** - and screw you too.
sounds like gaming the system. It was open to all students...duh...the fact that only the athletic scholarship "students" took advantage is total Bravo Sierra
Exactly.
This is classic bait and switch, and the NCAA seems to be acting more of an accomplice than anything else.
Remember that the whole Wainstein Report dog and pony show was bought and paid for by UNC, and they made sure to strictly limit the 'investigation' into AFAM studies.
No Fats' drug running, no Tami Hansbrough and the Dental Foundation, no Learning Disability testing scandal, no Pell Grant fraud etc. etc.
How convenient that after steering the NCAA away from numerous potential violations in favor of a very limited argument over their bogus classes, that UNC now argues that the NCAA has no right to oversee academics anyway.
(BTW, I agree that the NCAA shouldn't be specifying the specific requirements of each and every class at a University, but it is clear that UNC as an institution clearly broke the spirit and letter of the NCAA rules as they willfully committed fraud by not providing any meaningful education to their athletes. Anyone who claims UNC hasn't broken any NCAA rules either hasn't read the NCAA rulebook or is a shill.)
The NCAA botched this 'investigation' from the very beginning and have continued to act anything like a responsible actor in this whole fiasco.
It's time for the NCAA to dissolve. Hopefully the US Congress will make that happen, although I won't be holding my breath on that either.
And always keep in mind when UNC supporters talk about 'non-athletes' taking these classes that no one has yet given a clear definition of what a 'non-athlete' actually is.
For example I know that UNC was counting former athletes who had used up their eligibility but were still trying to 'earn' their degree as 'non-athletes'.
I imagine that once former athletes, walk-ons, student managers, girlfriends, frat buddies etc. are taken into account, the pool of actual regular students with no affiliation to athletics who happened to find themselves in these classes was quite small.
Not that it matters anyway. In the past, the NCAA has ruled athletes ineligible who received improper benefits, regardless of whether others received them as well.
We all knew from the start of this scandal that Unc would end up not getting any punishment from their cheating. We all know some schools play by a different set of rules than everyone else. Duke and Unc are two of the untouchable schools in college basketball. We watch obvious cheating going on at both schools right in the front of the Ncaa's face and yet they always get away with it. The best part about the Unc cheating is the fact that before the news broke of Unc cheating to make sure their players got to play, every Unc fan that you dealt with on here or just online in general acted like Kentucky cheated and they couldn't do no wrong. They actually believed their own hype that Unc does everything the right way and is the only school in the entire country that does this. That fanbase actually thought they were better than everybody else and it all came from just being a Unc fan. Nowadays do any of you ever see a Unc fan on here wanting to talk basketball? I wonder why that is? The rare times we do spot a Unc fan wanting to talk basketball, the smug attitude is dead. They have figured out that in fact their **** does stink and they don't poop roses. The fact that Unc fans know they are going to get away with murder has at least made the Unc fans you see online bearable. It's awesome!
She got her house paid off too when it was in foreclosure despite not even having a job. Duhon got a brand new car as well after having to bum rides to practice his entire high school career.
So a kid getting a suit or driving a rental car or getting a dinner paid for is punishable but not when a university designs a system to give players fake grades and keep them eligible?
If UNC was someone like Illinois State, they'd be toast.
If UNC was someone like Illinois State, they'd be toast.
Last edited:
Was the original response from UNC translated from Swahili?
heck if UK pulled half of this crap we'd have been toast 5 years ago....and still not recovered
I want someone to explain to me how this is much different than what Georgia did in 2003 with the bogus classes?