UNC 20yrs false classes..NO PROB...Derek Rose...
- Thread starter RLSmith
- Start date
It's not what you did. It's who you know.
UNC's last three titles are as legit as bread banners.
So they are ruling on a high school kid but have no power over college athletes?
What kills me is that the NCAA rules him eligible first, so Memphis takes him of course, he plays a season, then NCAA finds something possibly wrong, and holds Memphis responsible. They should have punished themselves for ruling him eligible to begin with.
There is always a lot of confusion about this. There is an NCAA Clearing House that rules players (about 450,000 a year) eligible or ineligible based off minimum requirements. Based off the score that was turned in, he was ruled eligible. If the Clearing House finds out at any time that something happened that could invalidate your scores, they make you aware of it, which they did with Rose. Very similar to your taxes. You turn your taxes in prior to the deadline and they are accepted by the IRS. Doesn't mean the IRS can't come in at a later date an let you know that the tax information you provided is incorrect.
I'm not condoning the UNC case, but Rose had the opportunity to respond to the inquiry and chose not to. Rose did Cal and Memphis wrong by not responding.
I've read someone on here say before that rose was in Chicago and they were trying to contact him in Memphis and that's why he didn't respond.
There's just some very suspect details in all of that. Like the testing center invalidating his score despite their handwriting experts opinion being that it was inconclusive.
There's just some very suspect details in all of that. Like the testing center invalidating his score despite their handwriting experts opinion being that it was inconclusive.
The fact is Rashad Mccants got on tv and proved he was a ineligible player along with others.Rose did neither and was found guilty as a ineligible player.The fact is ineligible is ineligible and 3 Championship teams have them whether or not it’s about regular kids getting into class or not how is a kid that cheats and fails a course eligible.I feel like the ncaa thinks everyone is stupid enough to buy this.Its pick and choose and now is more apparent than ever.
They were given the information that he was an eligible player, once that status changed they did the only thing they could.
I believe you are correct, but it's also true that the NCAA says academics, including fake classes, are not in their purview while high school academics apparently are. At a minimum the NCAA is saying we are concerned with college entrance requirements, but don't really care about academics once you are competing as a STUDENT-athlete at an NCAA institution. Makes perfect sense.
In their report yesterday, NCAA is stating that illegal players were eligible due to the fake classes. NCAA could not prove it or swim in those waters to prove.
Strict Liability is what the former AD at Miami slapped on Cal and Memphis, Jankovich. It was a precedent that was set. This precedent should have not have allowed any wiggle room for NCAA. Could have gone to other cases.
NCAA did not want to do it and were out lawyered and scared.
No no no. The ncaa did not rule Rose ineligible. Why is that so hard to understand?
No Carolina player was ruled ineligible by anyone, and it's bs that they didn't but the fact that there were none is the only thing that matters. That's the only way you're going to see a school get in trouble.
I realize that the NCAA did not declare the kid ineligible, it was the ACT and the Clearinghouse. It was determined by NCAA that Rose was an ineligible player and this is why FF berth was vacated. Strict liability in sanctions that Memphis should have known and should not have played. NCAA had to levy penalty so in reality they did in fact deem the player was ineligible by the ruling.
The SAT people don't take away wins or strip banners. The NCAA does that.
The NCAA also has rules about maintaining eligibility once you get on campus. They have former UNC players admitting to being kept eligible in a fraudulent manner.
They could have stripped UNC on this basis. But they instead go with the "official" statement instead of the evidence. No matter that the official making the statement also stands to benefit most from that statement.
The NCAA also has rules about maintaining eligibility once you get on campus. They have former UNC players admitting to being kept eligible in a fraudulent manner.
They could have stripped UNC on this basis. But they instead go with the "official" statement instead of the evidence. No matter that the official making the statement also stands to benefit most from that statement.
Noise noise noise noise. All that doesn’t matter. The hypocrisy is blatant, regardless of what Rose should or shouldn’t have done/ responded
Ok If the NCAA can't rule on classes/eligibility, what good are they? They ruled on Penn St even though it had nothing to do with sports, unless child molestation is considered a sport in some circles. The certification of UNC**'s classes should have someone's approval/non-approval in order to offer it. The 2 staff members who started those classes under Deano Smith should have red-flagged the whole school and Deans who oversee those classes.
Rose didn't have anything to do with the NCAA until it was stated he was ineligible by the clearing house, then they stepped in and made their ruling. It's really b/s that one group can overstep the other only in certain cases, that is..
THe UNC** thing is a joke, b/c faux classes are not determined by the NCAA, only by the ruling certification body...
"Elite program my a**"
I don't think they did wrong with Memphis and I don't think they did right with unc but I see their point. They said they didn't come up with enough to disqualify those players just because it was open to all students. That's been true for a long time. Use Wildcat lodge for instance, the only way UK's players are allowed to live there is if at least a few regular students are allowed to live there as well, that keeps it from being solely a benefit to athletes.
The thing is that someone else should have done the right thing and decertified those classes and then it would have been a easy call for the ncaa. Carolina got out front and made sure that didn't happen. The ncaa does not have power over academics which was Jay Bilas point all along. The ncaa needed someone like they had in the Rose case to disqualify the players before they can act.
Penn St? Seriously I hope no one will hold that against them even if they were wrong. That place deserves to be burnt to the ground. That said they did have a angle in that the sports facilities and coaching staff were the one's committing crimes and of course law enforcement convicted them of such. They transported the children, the rapist and put them together in ncaa sanctioned events.
The best way to understand how the ncaa works is to remember that the only way they can obtain info is if someone with authority does it for them or the guilty parties admit to wrong doing. They are not police, a court system, or anyone with any kind of authority. The ncaa is a club that every one agreed to join and the only power they have is to withhold prizes and records.
why do we even need the NCAA clearinghouse? If a school says a kid is eligible to go to school then that should be that. I mean that's basically what the NCAA is saying with their b.s. UNC ruling. They need to stop their 'student' athlete morality crap because they don't even follow their own guidelines.
Really? Then how do you explain Georgia getting hammered under Jim Harrick for doing far less than what UNC did? Syracuse just got popped for academic misdeeds. Schools missing the Tourney for bad APR scores. I'm sorry but I don't buy that for a minute. From this point forward, there should never be another ineligible player because of grades. Fake classes are ok if regular students are ok to take them too. That is the new precedent.
I think if you are high Division 1 program, you must have a law firm or lawyers on retainer at all times, you fight and argue every point that the NCAA would hand down or deem inappropriate. NCAA sends a letter then you send one back with nothing to see here, this is academic and school issue. Move along and stay in your lane. Go deny kids transfers, deny kids who should be allowed to play, penalize innocents. Do what you do best and that is make money and rip everyone off. No more Dr. Roselle's who fall on the sword, fight it out.
If the NCAA has no power over academics then how can they give punishment for low GPAs in real classes?
Unc was willing to throw the reputation of the school under the bus to save the men's basketball program. They were actually defending their right to have these fake classes and that it's not the NCAAs business. They didn't try to say they were legitimate classes. This just proves what a diploma from that school is actually worth.
Unc was willing to throw the reputation of the school under the bus to save the men's basketball program. They were actually defending their right to have these fake classes and that it's not the NCAAs business. They didn't try to say they were legitimate classes. This just proves what a diploma from that school is actually worth.
In the Rose case, the NCAA had no other option. Once The ETS cancelled Rose's score he as (virtually) automatically ineligible, both moving forward and up till that point. Now, you can argue over why Rose chose not to respond to the letters (they sent more than one, and one to Memphis). Also, Cal/Memphis, and everyone else, knew that there were red flags surrounding Rose's test. Cal/Memphis chose to roll the dice and play him. You can also argue it if was a good move or not, without looking back in hindsight of course.
As far as UGA is concerned, the big differences between them and UNC is: (1) class(es) being offered that were only available to athletes, and (2) former players discussed being given grades without doing any work (Note: McCants said the same, but he would never go on record with the NCAA to talk about it). This was in addition to Harrick Jr. (an assistant) paying expenses of a player.
Something that I don't understand is all of those people who say that now any school can set up a sham department just to keep athletes eligible, as long as they offer the classes to other students. Sure, I guess they can. But, which coach in their right mind would agree to this? Have you not seen how crappy UNC's recruiting has been since this started? I seriously doubt any coach would trade in no-show classes for elite talent. You might have an easy time keeping them eligible, but damn if they can't play what's the point?
As far as UGA is concerned, the big differences between them and UNC is: (1) class(es) being offered that were only available to athletes, and (2) former players discussed being given grades without doing any work (Note: McCants said the same, but he would never go on record with the NCAA to talk about it). This was in addition to Harrick Jr. (an assistant) paying expenses of a player.
Something that I don't understand is all of those people who say that now any school can set up a sham department just to keep athletes eligible, as long as they offer the classes to other students. Sure, I guess they can. But, which coach in their right mind would agree to this? Have you not seen how crappy UNC's recruiting has been since this started? I seriously doubt any coach would trade in no-show classes for elite talent. You might have an easy time keeping them eligible, but damn if they can't play what's the point?
Very good first post. I'll never say the ncaa doesn't get things wrong but to many cases that are discussed here all the time are not that hard to understand.
His post is inaccurate. 3 athletes took the class while 100 regular students took the class that Jim Harrick got in trouble for. The class was only for one semester and was a physical education class on coaching principles.
Harrick Jr's class wasn't offered to just athletes. 3 athletes and 100 regular students. Was just a one credit hour class as well.
I'll admit that I'm not familiar with the Georgia case, it was a long time ago and I've been too lazy to research it. I do recall that Harrick was a big time crook that got the last 3 programs he coached at in trouble.
Lance Thomas wouldn't respond to the NCAA and the issue of how he acquired $100,000 in bling so the NCAA decided there was nothing they could do to Duke. Why was that not the case with Memphis?
you told him his first post was a good one when the poster claimed the difference between North Carolina and Georgia was that Georgia just used the class for athletes. That is not true. Georgia got punished for 300 dollars worth of expenses to one player and because three players attended that class. Punished for both expenses and a one credit hour class. What's hard for anyone to understand is the 2005 national championship team for North Carolina took 35 bogus classes with four key members of that team. So how were these players not deemed ineligible? To play basketball you have to have the proper GPA and credit hours. Rose may or may not have taken that SAT, and Memphis was punished. Those players chose to take bogus classes, so North Carolina should have received the same punishment.
Well I couldn't keep taking people's word for it so I spent 21 seconds looking it up myself and the answer was obvious why UGA was punished.
"No. 21 Georgia (19-8) suspended Harrick with pay and declared two starters academically ineligible after university officials discovered evidence that the players, Chris Daniels and Rashad Wright, did not regularly attend a class in which they both received A's. Jim Harrick Jr., who was suspended without pay 10 days ago, taught the class, ''Coaching Principles and Strategies of Basketball.'' All 31 students in the class received A's; 10 of them were athletes."
Here we are back to the point I keep trying to make in the this thread.... the ncaa has zero authority to do anything unless someone else with authority does it for them. Georgia is the one that ruled it's players ineligible. That is the key to it all the difference between the two schools. Just like Rose the ncaa had no choice but to punish them for playing ineligible players. North Carolina did not play anyone that has been ruled ineligible thus the ncaa can't punish them for it.
I respectfully don't agree with that point. Many schools have been punished for academic fraud and had to vacate games. Those two players at Georgia were punished and so should the many players that willingly took fake classes at UNC. The NCAA doesn't have to wait on someone else to do the punishment in an internal investigation. That's not true at all. Some programs they accept the punishment that they give themselves and then sometimes they make a more harsh punishment. My fault with this is they should be fair across the board. That won't happen and probably never will. Part of our 1989 scandal revolved around academics because of Eric Manuel's ACT score.
I stand corrected. I definitely mixed up some of the story. The basketball players were given class-work credit for going to practice and they were given grades without doing any of the assignments or exams. This is where the impermissible benefits came in. Either way, still different than in the UNC case. Yes, they did ALL of the work assigned to them...because none was assigned 
It was also determined that Harrick Jr. encouraged two of the players to give false or misleading information to investigators.
It was also determined that Harrick Jr. encouraged two of the players to give false or misleading information to investigators.
Harrick Jr gave expenses to a player as well. My point is teams have been punished for Academic fraud in the past and that UNC is no different. Welcome to the board, btwI stand corrected. I definitely mixed up some of the story. The basketball players were given class-work credit for going to practice and they were given grades without doing any of the assignments or exams. This is where the impermissible benefits came in. Either way, still different than in the UNC case. Yes, they did ALL of the work assigned to them...because none was assigned
It was also determined that Harrick Jr. encouraged two of the players to give false or misleading information to investigators.
Yes, this. I think this gets overlooked a lot. They forced Memphis to vacate because The ETS cancelled his exam score. If SACS or UNC had of nutted up and done the right thing and threw out those credits then the NCAA would have had no choice but to rule all of those players ineligible. They didn't, UNC didn't, and thus the NCAA had no other option. I seriously doubt they didn't want to punish UNC either, just look at all the time and money they put into it, along with Sankey's own words. It's just the way their system is set up. UNC sneaked through these loopholes and avoided punishment.
Thank you for the welcome.
Yeah, I went back (like JohnBlue_) to re-read the articles because I didn't remember every detail. I was where he paid around $300 to a player for expenses and encouraged two other players to lie to the investigators. '
Something that I find crazy is that the NCAA also punished them when they found that some players didn't pay for $1500 worth of long-distance calls, even though it was a hotel error and the hotel never charged the school (similar to the NCAA punishing Memphis for the error in the charging of Rose's family member's credit card).
I'm just hoping after all of this investigation from the FBI is finished that it forces the NCAA to be fair across the board. I'm about positive that it won't, but I hope that it happens. North Carolina and that ******** loop hole is a joke. We have all seen other schools punished for a lot less.
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