Thorson's Development

[Gladeskat]

I haven't followed all of Ecat's ridiculous posts about Thorson, because most reasonable people can see that Thorson is the guy, and they are managing him along very well, and imo he is farther along than Kafka or Baz were at this point.

That said, what do you mean that Thorson won the UW game for us? You mean he won the game because he didn't turn the ball over? Wouldn't it naturally follow that our long snapper won the game for us because he didn't muff any snaps? Or maybe the center for no high snaps? Or insert any individual who touched the ball, including the punter, and didn't turn it over?

Yeah, but who touched the ball more often than Thorson? He passed 20 times, mostly short pitches to our backs and WR's, and had 7 carries (including sacks). He didn't fumble and he didn't force any stupid throws (like slants where he'd have to account for both excellent LB's). He played well within the game plan so he serves a B+ for this Football 101 practical. Is he a great QB right now? No, but he isn't hurting us with turnovers in games like the UW game where the turnover margin is important. Plus he's had great games like the Nebraska game.

Others want Thorson to pass for 250 yards right now, but that's not going to happen for several reasons that we should all know by now. We have to be content running the ball (and we have a great back in JJackson, and a good alternate in Long), getting the ball into space for our backs and WR's, and occasionally taking the medium to long throw downfield. Our former gunslingers get lots of love now, but many crucified them for all of their picks that cost us games way back when. For example, remember all the ripping of Kafka early in the 2009 season ("Kafka isn't clutch" and other idiocy) until our defense became healthy again? The dumb forced throws against Michigan (2007) and Indiana close to the goal line in (2008) when all we needed was a FG was frustrating.

 

[Turk_rivals223269]

Yeah, but who touched the ball more often than Thorson? He passed 20 times, mostly short pitches to our backs and WR's, and had 7 carries (including sacks). He didn't fumble and he didn't force any stupid throws (like slants where he'd have to account for both excellent LB's). He played well within the game plan so he serves a B+ for this Football 101 practical. Is he a great QB right now? No, but he isn't hurting us with turnovers in games like the UW game where the turnover margin is important. Plus he's had great games like the Nebraska game.

Others want Thorson to pass for 250 yards right now, but that's not going to happen for several reasons that we should all know by now. We have to be content running the ball (and we have a great back in JJackson, and a good alternate in Long), getting the ball into space for our backs and WR's, and occasionally taking the medium to long throw downfield. Our former gunslingers get lots of love now, but many crucified them for all of their picks that cost us games way back when. For example, remember all the ripping of Kafka early in the 2009 season ("Kafka isn't clutch" and other idiocy) until our defense became healthy again? The dumb forced throws against Michigan (2007) and Indiana close to the goal line in (2008) when all we needed was a FG was frustrating.

IMO, Thorson would be doing a lot better, even now, if he had the luxury of the wide outs that Kafka had. I think Kafka's OL was even better but maybe equal, I forget. Thorson's Nebraska game was really something. It wasn't just his running. What I would like to see is for him to test that left side again with his legs when he leaves the pocket. His tendencies this year to leave the pocket and boot to his right, imo, causes defenses to shift that way and sorta expect where he will be 2 seconds after the ball snaps. Against Nebraska (although I don't think it was designed) he wiggled out of the pocket and went right and it was wide open, presumably because of his tendencies. Against Wisconsin, my hunch is that if he went right, assuming we played the DE, it would have been wide open since the LB's all were expecting Thorson to go left, which he did. Illinois has a decent defense, it will be interesting to see how we handle it but I wouldn't want to put too much on Thorson's plate since we don't have to, I think.

 

[EvanstonCat]

I haven't followed all of Ecat's ridiculous posts about Thorson, because most reasonable people can see that Thorson is the guy, and they are managing him along very well, and imo he is farther along than Kafka or Baz were at this point.

That said, what do you mean that Thorson won the UW game for us? You mean he won the game because he didn't turn the ball over? Wouldn't it naturally follow that our long snapper won the game for us because he didn't muff any snaps? Or maybe the center for no high snaps? Or insert any individual who touched the ball, including the punter, and didn't turn it over?

When did I say Thorson isn't the guy? He may be the best we have, we may be managing him along well, but he is NOT better than Baz was at this point. Kafka, yes. He may end up being a great QB. He is not now. nor is QB play the strong point of the team. What's wrong with calling it like it is? And Turk calling other people's ridiculous is ridiculous beyond ridiculous.

 

[hdhntr1]

Let's agree to disagree. You think Thorson is better than Kafka, Bacher and Siemian. I don't. Let's just leave it at that because we aren't even on the same planet and so it will be impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation about this when you have two views that are so far apart.

BTW, his turnovers in the Iowa and Michigan games did not help us win, but it was more the fact that he could not lead our offense to score nearly enough to beat anyone (10 points in two losses) and kept giving the opponents great field position. Luckily 13 points, most of which was set up by the D giving us a short field was good enough to beat Wisconsin. I believe there are more than a dozen people I would credit more for that than Thorson.

He has been better at this stage in his career. That is not saying he is better than they were as Jrs and Seniors. Big difference. He has not cost us any games. That is big for a Frosh.

 

[RevCat]

Our young quarterbacks are famously lousy passers in their first year of live action. Maybe that speaks to our in season coaching, I don't know. But they sure do get coached up afterwards:
Basanez
Kafka
Persa
Colter

CThor has a bright future ahead. We are in the Michigan and Iowa games with higher level QB play, but as has been pointed out: Thorson has not cost us any games. Period. And he is money when you need that last score. That is huge for a Frosh QB.

 

[Turk_rivals223269]

When did I say Thorson isn't the guy? He may be the best we have, we may be managing him along well, but he is NOT better than Baz was at this point. Kafka, yes. He may end up being a great QB. He is not now. nor is QB play the strong point of the team. What's wrong with calling it like it is? And Turk calling other people's ridiculous is ridiculous beyond ridiculous.

this is about your hate on thorson. Comparing him to a little worse than gavin hoffman? Really? Why the ******** comparisons? And yes, defenses have to prepare for thorson. Much better than Tootsie Hoffman.

And not giving him credit for nebraska??? Who the hell do you think broke down an otherwise decent DL?

Get Real!

Glades 1
Ecat -4

 

[GlideCat]

Our young quarterbacks are famously lousy passers in their first year of live action. Maybe that speaks to our in season coaching, I don't know. But they sure do get coached up afterwards:
Basanez
Kafka
Persa
Colter

CThor has a bright future ahead. We are in the Michigan and Iowa games with higher level QB play, but as has been pointed out: Thorson has not cost us any games. Period. And he is money when you need that last score. That is huge for a Frosh QB.

On that list, he really reminds me a lot of Mike Kafka (MK). I would compare CT favorably as a RS Freshman to MK as a junior. I remember after the Minnesota game his junior year (2008), I thought that MK could not hit the side of a barn from the inside but that he was a competitor that found a way to win the game. Against Minnesota that year, he threw for as many interceptions as TDs (only 16 passing attempts with 2 interceptions) but he rushed for 217 yards. The next week (against OSU) the team got blown away by a clearly more talented OSU team 45-10.

MK's record as a true RS Freshman was a little more bleak (under bleak circumstances). In 2006, he won games against Miami(Ohio) and Eastern Michigan and lost to New Hampshire, Nevada, and another blow-out to OSU. In those games, he threw 1 TD and 5 interceptions.

And MK as a senior passed for 3,430 yards with a 65% completion rating. 16 TDs with 12 interceptions.

The argument that CT is not equal to MK when he was at the same experience level appears to have no real merit. Any argument that suggests that the moderate but winning performance of our offense this year proves anything negative about CT's potential is also without merit.

 

[EvanstonCat]

He has been better at this stage in his career. That is not saying he is better than they were as Jrs and Seniors. Big difference. He has not cost us any games. That is big for a Frosh.

Well, finally we are getting to the point. The problem is that people on this board HAVE said that Thorson was better than Siemian last year. They made no distinction of "at this point in their careers" when arguing that he was better than Kafka, Siemian, Baz, and Bacher, pointing out games that occurred in their junior and senior years. I have no problem with anything you're saying - except he did cost us Michigan and Iowa. He cost us with his turnovers and he cost us by not being able to move the ball effectively to score, to give the D a chance with a much longer field to defend.

He has been better than Mike Kafka as a RS frosh, but Mike Kafka as a RS frosh shouldn't have been on the field. He is not better than Baz was a RS frosh, though he was probably better or as good as an sophomore Baz who played injured the whole year. Could Thorson be better than them all as a junior or senior. Yes. We will have to wait and see though.

Is he doing ok for a RS frosh QB - I suppose so. Not the best, not the worst. But, that's not the bar I'm using. I'm talking about QB play in general, regardless of tenure. Would I give up on his future? Of course not. And as I have said incessantly, he has tools, and given Kafka's development as a precedent, if he makes the same improvements, he could end up being our best ever. I have said that many times. But, he is not a good QB today and no amount of spin is going to change the fact that 12 of 13 QBs starting in this conference are performing better on the field right now.

 

[GlideCat]

I have no problem with anything you're saying - except he did cost us Michigan and Iowa.

I don't disagree with the basic premise of your post which is that CT is not as good as a RS freshman as Kafka, Bacher, etc. were as seniors. I also agree that it would have been nice to have a back-up quarterback ready to take the helm who was experienced and ready to play such as Bacher to Kafka to Persa to Colter. We did not.

However, I watched those games you mentioned on television and saw our offensive and defensive lines get overmatched pretty much from the beginning. I do not see us winning either game with the change of a single player (even the quarterback). Laying those losses solely on CT as you have above with the statement "he did cost us Michigan and Iowa" is inaccurate.

 

[Turk_rivals223269]

Well, finally we are getting to the point. The problem is that people on this board HAVE said that Thorson was better than Siemian last year. They made no distinction of "at this point in their careers" when arguing that he was better than Kafka, Siemian, Baz, and Bacher, pointing out games that occurred in their junior and senior years. I have no problem with anything you're saying - except he did cost us Michigan and Iowa. He cost us with his turnovers and he cost us by not being able to move the ball effectively to score, to give the D a chance with a much longer field to defend.

He has been better than Mike Kafka as a RS frosh, but Mike Kafka as a RS frosh shouldn't have been on the field. He is not better than Baz was a RS frosh, though he was probably better or as good as an sophomore Baz who played injured the whole year. Could Thorson be better than them all as a junior or senior. Yes. We will have to wait and see though.

Is he doing ok for a RS frosh QB - I suppose so. Not the best, not the worst. But, that's not the bar I'm using. I'm talking about QB play in general, regardless of tenure. Would I give up on his future? Of course not. And as I have said incessantly, he has tools, and given Kafka's development as a precedent, if he makes the same improvements, he could end up being our best ever. I have said that many times. But, he is not a good QB today and no amount of spin is going to change the fact that 12 of 13 QBs starting in this conference are performing better on the field right now.

well, some sanity, finally. Blaming the iowa and michigan losses on thorson is in very poor taste, and claiming gavin hoffman was better is absurd.

 

[EvanstonCat]

well, some sanity, finally. Blaming the iowa and michigan losses on thorson is in very poor taste, and claiming gavin hoffman was better is absurd.

Gavin Hoffman was ranked higher than 116 in Division I. It doesn't matter, neither were very good. I don't think Thorson lost us the Iowa and Michigan games by himself, but the lack of quality QB play and a passing offense (or any offense) was a huge reason why we lost, and contributed to those teams being able to score so much on us what with short fields, turnovers, etc...

 

[Gladeskat]

On that list, he really reminds me a lot of Mike Kafka (MK). I would compare CT favorably as a RS Freshman to MK as a junior. I remember after the Minnesota game his junior year (2008), I thought that MK could not hit the side of a barn from the inside but that he was a competitor that found a way to win the game. Against Minnesota that year, he threw for as many interceptions as TDs (only 16 passing attempts with 2 interceptions) but he rushed for 217 yards. The next week (against OSU) the team got blown away by a clearly more talented OSU team 45-10.

MK's record as a true RS Freshman was a little more bleak (under bleak circumstances). In 2006, he won games against Miami(Ohio) and Eastern Michigan and lost to New Hampshire, Nevada, and another blow-out to OSU. In those games, he threw 1 TD and 5 interceptions.

And MK as a senior passed for 3,430 yards with a 65% completion rating. 16 TDs with 12 interceptions.

The argument that CT is not equal to MK when he was at the same experience level appears to have no real merit. Any argument that suggests that the moderate but winning performance of our offense this year proves anything negative about CT's potential is also without merit.

Kafka completed 75% (12-16) of his pass attempts against Minnesota, including the best throw of the season to Ebert up until Bacher hit Peterman in the Alamo Bowl. His second pic was on a long throw on 3rd down that had the same effect as a punt, i.e., it was inconsequential. He did throw a pick-6 in that game, though, along with two TD's. The coaches minimized his passing attempts after the Pick-6. Still, I came away from that game with confidence that he would be a decent QB for us in 2009 with more practice. Others pointed to his negative 20-yard lateral in the last seconds while being spun to the ground by an Indiana defender as some indication of his skills as a QB. Dumb beyond belief.

 

[Just Gary]

Very foolish to blame Michigan and Iowa on the QB. That would show no knowledge of football. We lost those games at the line of scrimmage and there isn't a QB in NU history who would have single-handedly won those games for us. Those were team losses.

People would like to think past QBs were much better than they actually were. Every QB named in this thread was criticized for the way they threw. I don't know how many times I heard people talked about Persa holding on to the ball too long or Bacher not having a strong enough arm or Kafka making bad decisions. Even Schnur was criticized as being averaged and not a game changer. Trevor was constantly under attack by this board as not being good enough. And please remember what Baz really looked liked as a sophomore and junior.

CT is a freshman and we all hope he gets better. But maybe people forgot the Illinois game last year, so picture that game and think of how the season could have been with an offense that was even more inept.

 

[NJCat83588]

Very foolish to blame Michigan and Iowa on the QB. That would show no knowledge of football. We lost those games at the line of scrimmage and there isn't a QB in NU history who would have single-handedly won those games for us. Those were team losses..

Amen. Shows a lack of football smarts to claim that any QB other than perhaps Otto Graham could have led NU to a win. The Michigan game was over 14 seconds into the game, defense just couldn't make stops. Perhaps Iowa could have been different as at least NU were in the game at the half, but Iowa hasn't lost yet and probably would have found a way to win even with Easy Otto at the helm. Ferentz > Fitz.....