This is the real issue- It Can Be Fixed

[Rideordiewildcat]

If anyone thinks this is a normal year and all things are even you are crazy, blind, or just have an agenda and it helps you with your agenda to act like it is. Long post so if reading hurts your head skip over this post. Also if you hate rational post skip.

UK 5-12 80th
Dook 7-7 71st
KU 12-7 26th
UNC 12-6 50th
Mich St 9-7 91st

Teams that have played together for years have a huge advantage. They know each other and each other tendencies. They have a feel for each other and are a team. You can't just take a bunch of guys and throw them together in a short span and expect them to be a team. That takes a while. Then on top of that, we are one of a few teams in the country to have not played a single Quad 4 game and only 2 Quad 2 games. Most teams have played at least 6+ Quad 3-4 combined. This team didn't get the cream puffs to build confidence and get their grove. I know people on here don't think Richmond is **** but before the season happened they were in the Top 25 and more importantly they start 4 Sr.s. The last thing this team of all new players needed in game 2 was a Sr veteran team who had been together forever. Richmond is 51st just 1 spot back of UNC but it's all about the name I guess. Our schedule is not what a completely new team needed out of the gate:

Quad 1: 2-8
Quad 2: 1-4
Quad 3: 2-0
Quad 4: Zero games

We haven't lost a game that wasn't Quad 1-2. We could have used some popcorn U's in there. Now in no way should any UK team be 5-12 and I am pissed and over it too. But this team also seems snake bit. In the ND and U6 game Sarr has easy shots he usually makes to win them both. Ku, he misses a putback dunk. GA the ball is fumbled and no one goes to the floor and we lose at the buzzer again. Now we are playing and leading good teams only to just disappear at the end.

Look it has been a horrible season and Cal for sure needs to make some changes, but there are some on here with an agenda and they want Cal gone no matter the facts or situations. People are going on and on about how we must return players. Last year's team says hi.

Ashton Soph.
Nick Jr.
Quickly Soph.
EJ Soph.
Sestina Grad Sr.

That team really didn't even rely on Freshman. People want to discount them because they never got their chance so they can't be wrong, but that team won 9 of its last 10, won the SEC easily, and won the marquee matchups, UL, Mich St, Texas Tech to go 25-6. That team had shooting, a dominant big man and all the players out there could knock down FTs. The FT shooting alone could have carried us and is something Cal's teams don't always have. I mean our whole team could go 6-6 from the line. When we missed one is was surprising. Yet many on here were bitching about that team last year also. Which shows the agenda. I really enjoyed last year's team. EU was embarrassing but it is the way college BB is going. See 16 seed over 1s seed Virginia recently. If that happened to us we would burn down the state.

This year sucks and Cal needs to make changes that are clear, but it is not a normal year, not even close. I'm not even making them into excuses it just is what it is and Cal needs to make sure we are never in this spot again by constantly retaining players. I feel like he has tried to make that change by bringing in some lower-ranked players but they have to stay. The thing that gets us top recruits also takes players from us before they are ready. Come to UK and you will get to the league. Fine, but don't go until you are a 1st round pick or for heaven's sake a second-round pick. We have become victims of our own success with recruiting. Everyone coming here thinks they are OAD and that needs to change yesterday.

Also, I am a Kentucky fan first and foremost. Not a Cal fan. People on here want to lump everyone into one category or the other and it just isn't true. I want what is best for UK, but I am also going to be rational about it. If anything close to this was to happen next year then it is clear it is time for a change.

 

[JCBU_246]

The biggest issue is that the program's culture is so toxic that a player can think they're a failure if they have to stay another year at UK.

Love the big man, but Nick Richards was losing hope because he had to come back his junior year, but bless him that he did

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

No. Nothing wrong with having one or two OAD players. The point is, you can't have 6-8 every year and think you're going to have cohesion on the team.

Hagans, EJ, and others left because of the culture cal has created at UK. It's the systemic failure of the way things are at UK right now.

Nobody felt Wall, cousins, Davis, Towns, etc were wrong for leaving.

It's the ones I mentioned that create the problem. Teague should have stayed. Young should have stayed. And so on.

While you're definitely right about guys like EJ and Ashton - if you're going to leave without getting drafted (or imo even leave early to go second round) - there's a strong argument you "should stay" or else you shouldn't have gone to college to begin with. These are the guys I've talked about when I say "if you're dead set on leaving after a year or two regardless of whether you reach your potential and really contribute, you're detrimental to our program."

But do we think more time in college would have helped Young or Teague be good enough players to get a second contract in the NBA? If you can get a 1st round pick with guaranteed money, by what metric "should" you have stayed in college? They contributed to our program, helped us win a championship and get to a Final Four, got a guaranteed contract, and frankly just were never going to be good enough to get beyond their rookie contracts. We WANT to see them in college for multiple years, but it's very hard to make an argument that they SHOULD stay in college multiple years.

But this also ties back to what I've said before - we should only recruit guys who are dead set on getting to the NBA in 1 or 2 years if we truly believe they will be major contributors at the college level in 1 or 2 years.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

While you're definitely right about guys like EJ and Ashton - if you're going to leave without getting drafted (or imo even leave early to go second round) - there's a strong argument you "should stay" or else you shouldn't have gone to college to begin with. These are the guys I've talked about when I say "if you're dead set on leaving after a year or two regardless of whether you reach your potential and really contribute, you're detrimental to our program."

But do we think more time in college would have helped Young or Teague be good enough players to get a second contract in the NBA? If you can get a 1st round pick with guaranteed money, by what metric "should" you have stayed in college? They contributed to our program, helped us win a championship and get to a Final Four, got a guaranteed contract, and frankly just were never going to be good enough to get beyond their rookie contracts. We WANT to see them in college for multiple years, but it's very hard to make an argument that they SHOULD stay in college multiple years.

But this also ties back to what I've said before - we should only recruit guys who are dead set on getting to the NBA in 1 or 2 years if we truly believe they will be major contributors at the college level in 1 or 2 years.

The things is, what happens when they leave UK is not the issue. It's their leaving when they shouldn't is what is hurting UK.
Not sure how leaving early and ending up in some overseas league is good for them as players. They get the money sure, but I doubt ending up playing in Turkey (no idea where they are) was the dream for them.
How would an extra year have hurt Young or Teague? yes they would have had to wait a few months for money, but possible that extra year helps them improve their weak areas and grow as players. The issue is the rush to the NBA Cal pushes that creates that mind set.

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

The question isn't "would another year hurt them." We selfishly want them to stay as long as we can keep them. We care about Kentucky, and the college game. You need to convince that player that the benefit of another year in college benefits them to a degree that outweighs the downsides. I'm saying maybe we should recruit guys who want to be in college because if Marquis Teague or James Young has the goal of being a professional player and doesn't value time spent in college, it is very difficult to make an argument that it is in their benefit to spend more time in college.

If they didn't improve their weak areas and grow as players through three years as a professional, playing in the NBA and in the G league, with unlimited practice time and no classes and studying, then you can't convince me another year or two in college would have improved their weak areas and grown them as players to the point that they'd be SO much better that they'd get the second contract they failed to get in reality. Or that if continued time playing in foreign pro leagues doesn't improve their weak areas and grow them as players that they make their way back to the NBA for further contracts, that college was the magic ticket to make it happen. If it didn't happen there, it wasn't going to happen here. "They should have stayed" is a bad argument, when what you're really saying is "I don't want to see marginal NBA talent hop through Kentucky after one year."

 

[Rideordiewildcat]

The question isn't "would another year hurt them." We selfishly want them to stay as long as we can keep them. We care about Kentucky, and the college game. You need to convince that player that the benefit of another year in college benefits them to a degree that outweighs the downsides. I'm saying maybe we should recruit guys who want to be in college because if Marquis Teague or James Young has the goal of being a professional player and doesn't value time spent in college, it is very difficult to make an argument that it is in their benefit to spend more time in college.

If they didn't improve their weak areas and grow as players through three years as a professional, playing in the NBA and in the G league, with unlimited practice time and no classes and studying, then you can't convince me another year or two in college would have improved their weak areas and grown them as players to the point that they'd be SO much better that they'd get the second contract they failed to get in reality. Or that if continued time playing in foreign pro leagues doesn't improve their weak areas and grow them as players that they make their way back to the NBA for further contracts, that college was the magic ticket to make it happen. If it didn't happen there, it wasn't going to happen here. "They should have stayed" is a bad argument, when what you're really saying is "I don't want to see marginal NBA talent hop through Kentucky after one year."

Another thing that isn't helping is the NBA doesn't seem to give a crap about college BB. I would think what is good for college BB is better for them down the road. But instead, they seem to want every player right now and it's becoming a throw-away league. Get them in and if it doesn't work immediately get them out and bring in the next bunch. 60 guys aren't enough now they want the G league to be more alluring so the top players don't even go to college. I wish that the NBA and college BB could work together for a better product for both. Instead, the NBA seems almost like they want to destroy college BB. Did they really need to make the G league more attractive? I think guys that stay in college and grow are better players for the league outside of the super talented.

 

[ManitouDan_anon]

If anyone thinks this is a normal year and all things are even you are crazy, blind, or just have an agenda and it helps you with your agenda to act like it is. Long post so if reading hurts your head skip over this post. Also if you hate rational post skip.

UK 5-12 80th
Dook 7-7 71st
KU 12-7 26th
UNC 12-6 50th
Mich St 9-7 91st

Teams that have played together for years have a huge advantage. They know each other and each other tendencies. They have a feel for each other and are a team. You can't just take a bunch of guys and throw them together in a short span and expect them to be a team. That takes a while. Then on top of that, we are one of a few teams in the country to have not played a single Quad 4 game and only 2 Quad 2 games. Most teams have played at least 6+ Quad 3-4 combined. This team didn't get the cream puffs to build confidence and get their grove. I know people on here don't think Richmond is **** but before the season happened they were in the Top 25 and more importantly they start 4 Sr.s. The last thing this team of all new players needed in game 2 was a Sr veteran team who had been together forever. Richmond is 51st just 1 spot back of UNC but it's all about the name I guess. Our schedule is not what a completely new team needed out of the gate:

Quad 1: 2-8
Quad 2: 1-4
Quad 3: 2-0
Quad 4: Zero games

We haven't lost a game that wasn't Quad 1-2. We could have used some popcorn U's in there. Now in no way should any UK team be 5-12 and I am pissed and over it too. But this team also seems snake bit. In the ND and U6 game Sarr has easy shots he usually makes to win them both. Ku, he misses a putback dunk. GA the ball is fumbled and no one goes to the floor and we lose at the buzzer again. Now we are playing and leading good teams only to just disappear at the end.

Look it has been a horrible season and Cal for sure needs to make some changes, but there are some on here with an agenda and they want Cal gone no matter the facts or situations. People are going on and on about how we must return players. Last year's team says hi.

Ashton Soph.
Nick Jr.
Quickly Soph.
EJ Soph.
Sestina Grad Sr.

That team really didn't even rely on Freshman. People want to discount them because they never got their chance so they can't be wrong, but that team won 9 of its last 10, won the SEC easily, and won the marquee matchups, UL, Mich St, Texas Tech to go 25-6. That team had shooting, a dominant big man and all the players out there could knock down FTs. The FT shooting alone could have carried us and is something Cal's teams don't always have. I mean our whole team could go 6-6 from the line. When we missed one is was surprising. Yet many on here were bitching about that team last year also. Which shows the agenda. I really enjoyed last year's team. EU was embarrassing but it is the way college BB is going. See 16 seed over 1s seed Virginia recently. If that happened to us we would burn down the state.

This year sucks and Cal needs to make changes that are clear, but it is not a normal year, not even close. I'm not even making them into excuses it just is what it is and Cal needs to make sure we are never in this spot again by constantly retaining players. I feel like he has tried to make that change by bringing in some lower-ranked players but they have to stay. The thing that gets us top recruits also takes players from us before they are ready. Come to UK and you will get to the league. Fine, but don't go until you are a 1st round pick or for heaven's sake a second-round pick. We have become victims of our own success with recruiting. Everyone coming here thinks they are OAD and that needs to change yesterday.

Also, I am a Kentucky fan first and foremost. Not a Cal fan. People on here want to lump everyone into one category or the other and it just isn't true. I want what is best for UK, but I am also going to be rational about it. If anything close to this was to happen next year then it is clear it is time for a change.

Just Stop.

 

[Rideordiewildcat]

Just Stop.

Great rebuttal.

 

[yoshukai]

The real issue is our fanbase. Particularly the ones with their political rage they want to inject into everything. It needs to be gutted out. Our players are leaving Lexington despising the fanbase. The coaches and administrators are embarrassed by those same fans and their behavior and are tired of having to excuse them to players, recruits and their families. Good news is the average lifespan in KY isn't that great comparatively, and KY also has a poor healthcare, high obesity rates and high cancer rates. And judging by the amount of prayer request threads and obituary threads posted here daily and weekly, hopefully some of you are meeting that end quickly and won't be around much longer to cause the problems.

What an absolute embarrassment some of you people have become for Rupp, Hall, Kightley and every other reputable person affiliated with UK basketball. They would be ashamed of you!

This just might be the STUPIDIST post I’ve ever read on this site , and I’ve been here since 2002 . CONGRATULATIONS ! lol

 

[ManitouDan_anon]

Great rebuttal.

No need to , its been posted a 1000 times here , you wont listen. But its a big world , you can keep on dreaming.

 

[Rideordiewildcat]

No need to , its been posted a 1000 times here , you wont listen. But its a big world , you can keep on dreaming.

Who the F is dreaming? I said we suck and Cal needs to change and he has to retain players on a yearly basis. Dam, do you guys read the post or just see that it doesn't say fire Cal, and therefore it must be a sunshine pumper thread. I remember when this place had intelligent basketball discussions. That feels like a long time ago with a thousand posts about who should be our coach. The amazing one today is Barnes who hasn't even made a FF even when he had Durrant.

I am just discussing solutions and hope that some will happen. What is the alternative everything sucks and UK sucks and all hope is lost? No thanks. I am a Kentucky fan, always have been and always will be. It isn't dependent on who the coach is. However, anyone with a brain knows Cal will be here next year so let's get past it and we can discuss what should be changed and hope we see changes because the alternative is to throw temper tantrums and just rant and rave like a teenage girl.

 

[JC43]

The real issue is our fanbase. Particularly the ones with their political rage they want to inject into everything. It needs to be gutted out. Our players are leaving Lexington despising the fanbase. The coaches and administrators are embarrassed by those same fans and their behavior and are tired of having to excuse them to players, recruits and their families. Good news is the average lifespan in KY isn't that great comparatively, and KY also has a poor healthcare, high obesity rates and high cancer rates. And judging by the amount of prayer request threads and obituary threads posted here daily and weekly, hopefully some of you are meeting that end quickly and won't be around much longer to cause the problems.

What an absolute embarrassment some of you people have become for Rupp, Hall, Kightley and every other reputable person affiliated with UK basketball. They would be ashamed of you!

Amen!!! True fans root and pull harder when losing, not pile on a bunch of negativity and hate on them. These so called fans are angry due to poor record. Yes, execution of play has been less than stellar and we sh*t the bed during "winning time" Families of star recruits and opposing coaches are using these 'fan' reactions (we know who you all are) against the program. Those that make baseless claims are hurting our beloved basketball program. And those who think Noone ever reads this msg board are totally delusional. I am a Kentucky Basketball Fan for life! Win or lose, I bleed Blue!!! LETS GO BIG BLUE!!!

 

[ManitouDan_anon]

Who the F is dreaming? I said we suck and Cal needs to change and he has to retain players on a yearly basis. Dam, do you guys read the post or just see that it doesn't say fire Cal, and therefore it must be a sunshine pumper thread. I remember when this place had intelligent basketball discussions. That feels like a long time ago with a thousand posts about who should be our coach. The amazing one today is Barnes who hasn't even made a FF even when he had Durrant.

I am just discussing solutions and hope that some will happen. What is the alternative everything sucks and UK sucks and all hope is lost? No thanks. I am a Kentucky fan, always have been and always will be. It isn't dependent on who the coach is. However, anyone with a brain knows Cal will be here next year so let's get past it and we can discuss what should be changed and hope we see changes because the alternative is to throw temper tantrums and just rant and rave like a teenage girl.

You are the one ranting and writing novels , not me.. You say you are not dreaming but mention Cal retaining players . To me , that's dreaming and nothing unintelligent about me calling it out . . Maybe we can revisit this topic in about 3 months and see our retention is . I'm glad you are for it , I'm for it to , but it isn't reality in Cals system. Sorry I hit your very open and exposed nerve .

 

[Rideordiewildcat]

You are the one ranting and writing novels , not me.. You say you are not dreaming but mention Cal retaining players . To me , that's dreaming and nothing unintelligent about me calling it out . . Maybe we can revisit this topic in about 3 months and see our retention is . I'm glad you are for it , I'm for it to , but it isn't reality in Cals system. Sorry I hit your very open and exposed nerve .

Dude get real I could care less what you think. You are on here crying constantly. You didn't hit any nerve I am just killing time waiting for the game.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

The question isn't "would another year hurt them." We selfishly want them to stay as long as we can keep them. We care about Kentucky, and the college game. You need to convince that player that the benefit of another year in college benefits them to a degree that outweighs the downsides. I'm saying maybe we should recruit guys who want to be in college because if Marquis Teague or James Young has the goal of being a professional player and doesn't value time spent in college, it is very difficult to make an argument that it is in their benefit to spend more time in college.

If they didn't improve their weak areas and grow as players through three years as a professional, playing in the NBA and in the G league, with unlimited practice time and no classes and studying, then you can't convince me another year or two in college would have improved their weak areas and grown them as players to the point that they'd be SO much better that they'd get the second contract they failed to get in reality. Or that if continued time playing in foreign pro leagues doesn't improve their weak areas and grow them as players that they make their way back to the NBA for further contracts, that college was the magic ticket to make it happen. If it didn't happen there, it wasn't going to happen here. "They should have stayed" is a bad argument, when what you're really saying is "I don't want to see marginal NBA talent hop through Kentucky after one year."

Hard for me to believe guys like Young and Teague wouldn't have gotten better under the staff that Cal had at that time vs who knows what overseas.
Extra year or two in college as helped a ton of kids. You start to understand the game. Understand how much hard work is required. You're in a much more controlled environment.
Those other places are all business. You either produce or you get cut. Nobody cares if you succeed or not. You're not guaranteed the next game, let alone next year.

 

[ArtLaibsGhost_rivals]

The real issue is our fanbase. Particularly the ones with their political rage they want to inject into everything. It needs to be gutted out. Our players are leaving Lexington despising the fanbase. The coaches and administrators are embarrassed by those same fans and their behavior and are tired of having to excuse them to players, recruits and their families. Good news is the average lifespan in KY isn't that great comparatively, and KY also has a poor healthcare, high obesity rates and high cancer rates. And judging by the amount of prayer request threads and obituary threads posted here daily and weekly, hopefully some of you are meeting that end quickly and won't be around much longer to cause the problems.

What an absolute embarrassment some of you people have become for Rupp, Hall, Kightley and every other reputable person affiliated with UK basketball. They would be ashamed of you!

To blame the fans for what currently ails the UK basketball program is beyond ridiculous. The fans haven’t gone 5-13. The fans are not being paid 9 million dollars a year to coach the team. If you think the fans are the reason all these kids have transferred from here you are delusional. It never fails that when Kentucky struggles in basketball some bozo screams the bad old fans are the culprit