The problem with calling this a rebuilding year

[Shamoan]

Is that we have serious holes all over the field and that's BEFORE we lose players to graduation (Ross, Brown), a coach that has an affinity to play older players despite a higher skill level on the bench, and a history of very limited playing time to even the most talented incoming freshmen.

Basically, if we are better next year, it will be because fitz learned how to not trip over himself and how to not overshoot wide open receivers, AND addition by subtraction with shump, Holloway, et al.

Either that or we hit a bunch of juco home runs.

All that to say, I'm not sure next season is going to look much different than what we saw tonight. This "rebuilding season" is looking more like a long term deal and no real turnaround until we get some serious talent on the field, which could be a while given mullens apparent playing time philosophies.

 

[Bulldogg31]

Rebuilding years always look like ****. That's why they suck. Look at Auburn last year. Absolutely hopeless. This year, a little better.

If Mullen doesn't get it going in the right direction next year he'll be gone. Until then, nothing to do but pull for the guys (students at OUR school) to play better and win.

 

[Shamoan]

True, but I think it starts and ends with the o line. We just seem to be spiraling down with worse players year to year.

 

[57stratdawg]

It's pretty criminal what we've done to Williams. He's going to be good, and he makes our OL look better.

 

[engie]

Every word of this could have been said in 2013.

 

[tbaydog]

Is that we have serious holes all over the field and that's BEFORE we lose players to graduation (Ross, Brown), a coach that has an affinity to play older players despite a higher skill level on the bench, and a history of very limited playing time to even the most talented incoming freshmen.

Basically, if we are better next year, it will be because fitz learned how to not trip over himself and how to not overshoot wide open receivers, AND addition by subtraction with shump, Holloway, et al.

Either that or we hit a bunch of juco home runs.

All that to say, I'm not sure next season is going to look much different than what we saw tonight. This "rebuilding season" is looking more like a long term deal and no real turnaround until we get some serious talent on the field, which could be a while given mullens apparent playing time philosophies.

For what I've seen, I truly would hope it is a " rebuilding year." It appears at rate we recruit, a 3 - 5 year retool.

 

[jack daniels dog]

It's pretty criminal what we've done to Williams. He's going to be good, and he makes our OL look better.

This... watching last night made me bite nails at how we have watched the use of Holloway all season while Williams rides the bench.... for gods sake it's not even close, seeing a RB carry D linemen 2-3 yards after contact was so refreshing, even in the loss. If not for a few plays where our immaculate O Line just gets manhandled, he easily breaks 100 and averages around 4.5-5 yds a carry. Yet I'm sure we can look forward to a steady diet of Holloway next week if he is healthy. I'm sure he is a great person, but SEC running back he is not

 

[stateu1]

True. And the reality is none of the 6 teams above us in the west are going anywhere. We best get used to the basement.

 

[Dawg1976]

Sure is. He should have been playing a lot more.

 

[57stratdawg]

Yeah. This team is 2013 which should have basically been everyone's expectation entering the year. I do think we had a bit more offense then than this year though.

 

[Shamoan]

Let's hope we have another dak prescott lurking in the shadows.

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

We're not rebuilding. Rebuilding implies that you're actually building something back up. We're in wrecking ball mode.

 

[thatsbaseball]

3-9 ain`t "rebuilding" a damn thing with this schedule

 

[aTotal360]

Can someone help me understand what the difference between a rebuilding year and simply being a bad?

 

[kired]

The ironic thing is I think Holloway could have been a difference maker last night. None of us want him to never play again... we just want him to be that change of pace guy to Williams. Shumpert should do nothing but block from here out.

 

[CookieMonster.sixpack]

Every word of this could have been said in 2013.

Did we go 3-9 in 2013?

 

[engie]

We're not rebuilding. Rebuilding implies that you're actually building something back up. We're in wrecking ball mode.

You say that -- but there was a LOT of young guys showing flashes last night. Spencer was f'n awesome. Mixon. Williams. Dear. Fitz had some flashes. Simmons. McLaurin. Leo. Peters with some plays. Durr with some plays. Smokey was decent again. Only one corner really got posterized -- and he was a senior.

The guys with the exceedingly bad plays -- were Jiles(sr), Rankin(jr), Senior(sr), Ross(sr), Graves(jr or sr) etc...

We ran the ball a lot better than we have been. A product of playing younger/better RBs. Would have run the ball really well if not for OL(all upperclassmen) getting blown back 3 yards into all the running lanes at key moments of the game and our best OL going out with injury.

Fitz missed throws -- but he missed almost all of them the exact same way with pretty consistent precision. He made one ill-advised throw into double coverage. The 2nd INT was a timing route that wasn't run by the WR. All of the identical overthrows are a result of the ball sailing on him due to footwork. Something that will be corrected with time and experience. He's not missing left or right. He's not missing short. He's missing long when throwing off his back foot -- when we ask him to throw from a non-existent pocket. He's going to be fine. More confident of that now than I have been at any previous point.

We've got issues at WR with the upperclassmen. None of them are seemingly capable of being the guy with Fitz. Mixon and Dear seem to catch his "ugly" ball just fine. If/when the bigger freshmen WR step up, we should be OK out there. The jury is still out on the defense -- just no such thing as a seamless transition to a 3-4.

I still think the most logical approach for us -- instead of blowing everything up and if we absolutely can't fire him -- is to move Hev to TE like he was with Urban -- Sallach to an office -- and go get an OL coach/recruiter.

 

[engie]

Can someone help me understand what the difference between a rebuilding year and simply being a bad?

Rebuilding is when you are bad temporarily because you missed on a couple classes that happen to be upperclassmen -- and there is a transition period to the young guys being ready to go. See 2013. See baseball 2015.

 

[engie]

Did we go 3-9 in 2013?

No -- but at this same point in time -- you were 100% POSITIVE we were going to go 4-8 in 2013.

http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/show...-we-turn-it-around-next-year&highlight=mullen

Need I keep going?

 

[mount lefroy]

Can someone help me understand what the difference between a rebuilding year and simply being a bad?

Looking for other jobs.

 

[Go Budaw]

Every word of this could have been said in 2013.

Surely you don't think that this team is actually comparable to that 2013 team in any way. 2013 team never lost to South Alabama, had a much better Auburn team than this year beat on the road until the final drive, and actually had a QB that showed some promise throwing the ball. This year's team would lose to that 2013 team by 4 TD's and that is being generous.

 

[thatsbaseball]

Rebuilding is when you`re playing badly but recruiting and coaching at a level that you know improvement back to a prior high point is inevitable. Currently we`re just bad IMO.

 

[engie]

Surely you don't think that this team is actually comparable to that 2013 team in any way. 2013 team never lost to South Alabama, had a much better Auburn team than this year beat on the road until the final drive, and actually had a QB that showed some promise throwing the ball. This year's team would lose to that 2013 team by 4 TD's and that is being generous.

You are changing the narrative based on hindsight. If you were actually here through 2013, you would know otherwise. When we lost to that Auburn team -- they were coming off 3-f'n 9(0-8. No one had any idea that Auburn team was any good until that season had played all the way out. Was a huge meltdown about the game at the time.

I give you that 2013 didn't lose to a South Alabama -- one kick is the actual difference between the two seasons at this point. Or a Market shoestring tackle to save the UK game. Or a near-disaster against Bowling Green.

We had a better team last Saturday and we lost. That was the one thing Mullen did (not lose to inferior teams) and now he doesn't do it anymore. If he doesn't turn it around, it's time to look somewhere else. We're paying him too much to do otherwise

^ Cookiemonster quote from 9/2013.

Dak passing at this point in 2013.

08/31/13	+ 17 Oklahoma St.	Grass	L 3-21	17	7	41.2	89	5.2	0	1	73.39
09/07/13	Alcorn St.	Grass	W 51-7	19	12	63.2	174	9.2	2	0	174.83
09/14/13	@ 2 Auburn	Grass	L 20-24	28	15	53.6	213	7.6	0	0	117.47
09/21/13	Troy	Grass	W 62-7	21	13	61.9	233	11.1	1	0	170.82
10/05/13	14 LSU	Grass	L 26-59	20	9	45.0	106	5.3	0	1	79.52
10/12/13	Bowling Green	Grass	W 21-20	11	7	63.6	75	6.8	0	1	102.73

<tbody>
</tbody>

Fitz passing at this point in 2016.

09/03/16	South Ala.	Grass	L 20-21	3	0	0.0	0	0.0	0	0	0.00
09/10/16	South Carolina	Grass	W 27-14	29	19	65.5	178	6.1	2	1	132.94
09/17/16	@ LSU	Grass	L 20-23	24	12	50.0	120	5.0	0	0	92.00
09/24/16	@ Massachusetts	Turf	W 47-35	39	26	66.7	305	7.8	3	0	157.75
10/08/16	23 Auburn	Grass	L 14-38	34	17	50.0	181	5.3	2	1	108.25
10/14/16	@ Brigham Young	Grass	L 21-28	36	17	47.2	214	5.9	1	2	95.21

<tbody>
</tbody>

 

[engie]

Rebuilding is when you`re playing badly but recruiting and coaching at a level that you know improvement back to a prior high point is inevitable. Currently we`re just bad IMO.

from 10/12/2013

"fickle" MSU fans have been for seeing through this charade of a football program for quite a while now ? If Stricklin has any foresight and balls (for the record I don`t think he has either) he`ll try to get the ball rolling to get Mullen out of Starkville ASAP.

At some point -- when you stick your foot in your mouth for the exact same scenario -- you just like the taste of your foot.

See -- I made the same mistake in 2013 -- not too proud to admit it. Several quotes in the same thread you started that I quoted here. Although I find some of my points to still be true -- it doesn't mean I was right. Mullen gave us the greatest year we've seen directly off of that meltdown(which people too proud or blind to admit being wrong will try to dismiss).

The part I really do not understand is how -- now -- people don't think it can happen -- directly off of seeing it actually happen in the very, very recent past.

 

[kired]

Story got blown up a few times... I know he's young, but just pointing out it wasn't just the senior OL playing bad.

Fitz has no touch on most of his passes. He throws in the general area of the receiver, and it's usually a bullet. That's why we see so many short passes get batted down. He gets rushed under pressure, and doesn't reset his feet even when he has plenty of time to. He gives up and leaves the pocket too soon. He's tries to force throws rather than seeing & taking what the defense gives him. You've got to expect his pocket awareness and timing will improve with experience, but his passing is way behind in my opinion - for a guy that's been on campus since Dec-2013. He's a heck of an athlete with a lot of potential, but needs major work throwing.

 

[Go Budaw]

You are changing the narrative based on hindsight. If you were actually here through 2013, you would know otherwise. When we lost to that Auburn team -- they were coming off 3-f'n 9(0-8). No one had any idea that Auburn team was any good until that season had played all the way out. Was a huge meltdown about the game at the time.

I give you that 2013 didn't lose to a South Alabama -- one kick is the actual difference between the two seasons at this point.


^ Cookiemonster quote from 9/2013.

Dak passing at this point in 2013.

08/31/13	+ 17 Oklahoma St.	Grass	L 3-21	17	7	41.2	89	5.2	0	1	73.39
09/07/13	Alcorn St.	Grass	W 51-7	19	12	63.2	174	9.2	2	0	174.83
09/14/13	@ 2 Auburn	Grass	L 20-24	28	15	53.6	213	7.6	0	0	117.47
09/21/13	Troy	Grass	W 62-7	21	13	61.9	233	11.1	1	0	170.82
10/05/13	14 LSU	Grass	L 26-59	20	9	45.0	106	5.3	0	1	79.52
10/12/13	Bowling Green	Grass	W 21-20	11	7	63.6	75	6.8	0	1	102.73

<tbody style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; box-sizing: border-box;">
</tbody>

Fitz passing at this point in 2016.

09/03/16	South Ala.	Grass	L 20-21	3	0	0.0	0	0.0	0	0	0.00
09/10/16	South Carolina	Grass	W 27-14	29	19	65.5	178	6.1	2	1	132.94
09/17/16	@ LSU	Grass	L 20-23	24	12	50.0	120	5.0	0	0	92.00
09/24/16	@ Massachusetts	Turf	W 47-35	39	26	66.7	305	7.8	3	0	157.75
10/08/16	23 Auburn	Grass	L 14-38	34	17	50.0	181	5.3	2	1	108.25
10/14/16	@ Brigham Young	Grass	L 21-28	36	17	47.2	214	5.9	1	2	95.21

<tbody style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; box-sizing: border-box;">
</tbody>

I was here in 2013 and remember exactly what was said. About 7 games through the year, everyone knew we only had 6 wins as our ceiling, and one of those 6 involved us winning somewhere we've never won. To Mullen's credit, he won the Ark / OM games and got it done. You also seem to have a really short memory of last weekend, as we never had another game in 2013 or any other game in Mullen's tenure where we flat ourt displayed the piss poor effort and lack of mental focus and finishing plays that we saw last weekend. This team have guys that flat out aren't putting forward 100%. That was obvious with Bryant pulling up on the Auburn TD down the sideline, Senior just standing around and not taking his man on Fitz's run last night, etc. Effort was never a question with the 2013 team, yet it is by far the biggest question on this year's team.

Compared to that 2013 team, this year also has a ceiling - 5 wins. That will involve us winning all of the available games we can remaining which includes beating a ranked Arkansas team, Kentucky on the road, and Samford. The remaining games against OM, Bama, and A&M will all be losses by double digits in a best case scenario....not even remotely debatable. If we win all those other 3 to get to 5-7, we can talk about this actually being a rebuilding year and I think many folks would not be quite as downtrodden regarding the program's future. But we have a long way to go to get to that point. I personally think we drop at least one of those 3, but would love to be wrong.

 

[KurtRambis4]

Ouch, cookie that

is what you call getting burned...

Engie going no-holds-barred with that.

 

[ChinaDogSunflower]

Mama's wrong again

 

[WeWonItAll(Most)]

This is obviously a rebuilding year. The problem is that the one position we don't seem to be rebuilding at is the O-line, and that could arguably be the most important group of players on the field. Our OL was bad last season, it's gone from bad to putrid for this season, and there really aren't any indications that we can hope for anything more than a bad OL next season. It doesn't matter if we rebuild at other positions if we don't have an O-line.

What makes me want Mullen canned is our effort. We have looked like we don't give a **** in 3 of the 6 games we've played this season. That is inexcusable not matter what the status of our program is.

His insistent use of Holloway as an every down back, I believe, has hurt us way more than most of us realize this season. The difference between 2&10 and 2&6 is huge whenever we have a young QB that is struggling with throwing the ball. And using Holloway on 1st down up the middle is almost automatically dooming us to 2&10.

 

[mount lefroy]

No -- but at this same point in time -- you were 100% POSITIVE we were going to go 4-8 in 2013.

http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/show...-we-turn-it-around-next-year&highlight=mullen

Need I keep going?

False equivalent. The problem with this team and fanbase to boot is the inability to identify a leader and the obvious unity. In 2013 we had leadership and unity. There are two problems at work here.....inexperience (inevitable) and what rebuilding is focused on correcting.... And a lack of esprit de corps (which is SOLEY the responsibility of the coach to foster). There is no time it should not exist.

 

[engie]

Story got blown up a few times... I know he's young, but just pointing out it wasn't just the senior OL playing bad.

Fitz has no touch on most of his passes. He throws in the general area of the receiver, and it's usually a bullet. That's why we see so many short passes get batted down. He gets rushed under pressure, and doesn't reset his feet even when he has plenty of time to. He gives up and leaves the pocket too soon. He's tries to force throws rather than seeing & taking what the defense gives him. You've got to expect his pocket awareness and timing will improve with experience, but his passing is way behind in my opinion - for a guy that's been on campus since Dec-2013. He's a heck of an athlete with a lot of potential, but needs major work throwing.

Dak was also an EE. He was completing 54.3% of his passes at this point in his career. Everyone complained about his passing exactly like Fitz, who is completing 55.2% of his passes at an equal point in his career. Every word you said there could have been a 2013 Dak critique -- except we were excited because we were back to pounding it on the ground when Dak was in the game instead of the Russell offense.

Another good one.
http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/showthread.php?113867-I-think-everyone-needs-to-chill-the-17-out

 

[engie]

You also seem to have a really short memory of last weekend, as we never had another game in 2013 or any other game in Mullen's tenure where we flat ourt displayed the piss poor effort and lack of mental focus and finishing plays that we saw last weekend.

You obviously weren't actually here and reading -- if this is your rebuttal. Bama 2012. aTm 2012. LSU 2012. OM 2012. Northwestern 2012. We didn't score after halftime against a team with a pulse until the aTm game in 2013. The entire narrative was how the team had quit on Mullen and we were getting blown out by everyone that mattered. I know this because I was on that meltdown train.

This team have guys that flat out aren't putting forward 100%. That was obvious with Bryant pulling up on the Auburn TD down the sideline, Senior just standing around and not taking his man on Fitz's run last night, etc. Effort was never a question with the 2013 team, yet it is by far the biggest question on this year's team.

Auburn was a fireable cluster -- if that had continued. As was South Alabama. But this team isn't showing me any quit. I'm seeing flashes early in the season from this team that I didn't see until late in the aTm game in 2013 right before Dak went down -- and the defensive effort that followed that up.

Compared to that 2013 team, this year also has a ceiling - 5 wins. That will involve us winning all of the available games we can remaining which includes beating a ranked Arkansas team, Kentucky on the road, and Samford. The remaining games against OM, Bama, and A&M will all be losses by double digits in a best case scenario....

2013 verbatim.

not even remotely debatable

Certainly debatable.

If we win all those other 3 to get to 5-7, we can talk about this actually being a rebuilding year and I think many folks would not be quite as downtrodden regarding the program's future. But we have a long way to go to get to that point. I personally think we drop at least one of those 3, but would love to be wrong.

Why can't we let it play out before we define what can and can't happen.

 

[ChinaDogSunflower]

Fitz has most certainly thrown some balls in the dirt


ETA: For the record

 

[engie]

False equivalent. The problem with this team and fanbase to boot is the inability to identify a leader and the obvious unity. In 2013 we had leadership and unity. There are two problems at work here.....inexperience (inevitable) and what rebuilding is focused on correcting.... And a lack of esprit de corps (which is SOLEY the responsibility of the coach to foster). There is no time it should not exist.

We didn't know for sure that existed at this point in 2013. It certainly didn't exist for us in 2012. Now -- it became apparent later as the guys like Taveze Calhoun, McKinney, Dak, etc actually stepped forward as leaders -- but that's once again using hindsight to change perception of a situation when it actually existed.

 

[notoriousD_O_G]

There is no reason to think this team cannot be better next season. Will it be like 14? Doubtful. But Williams looks good at RB. Fitz can win games at QB and Tiano/Thompson can compete for the job. We have had a lot worse recievers than Mixon/Dear/Gray and there are some other guys who will make a big jump.

We have talent at saftey (Bryant/Peters/McLaurin) they just need to mature and execute. Corner is up in the air but everyone besides Jiles will be back another year more experienced. LB we lose Richie but bring back Leo Lewis and Dez Harris( who is playing great football). The others in the group (Green and Gray) have looked good at times. DL? Should be great next year.

Basically if we can somehow field an actual OL next year we can return to bowl eligibility and a lot of the people listed above will be back in 18.

 

[engie]

Fitz has most certainly thrown some balls in the dirt


ETA: For the record

No one said he hasn't this season. It's not a constant -- he's actually getting better almost every time out even if it doesn't translate tangibly to the same people that our baseball improvement last year didn't translate to until after the wins were in the books.

I'm saying what I saw progress-wise from him last night. Pretty good precision. Not accuracy by any means -- but precision. It's like a pitcher that misses in the same spot consistently. It's fair to expect that to be correctable and if you bet on that being something that actually gets fixed -- you will win a lot more often than you lose.

He was finding the open guys lat night. Just missing them high every time as a product of his mechanics, which are a product of youth in his career as a football player. How many game passes has he now thrown in his entire life now? Mullen's track record tells me it's a pretty dang good chance that gets fixed long before he leaves here.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

People want fitz to skip the lumps most first year QBs take and want him to be Dak from the get go. It's unreasonable.

QBs have to develop just like dak had to.

 

[DocHolliday.sixpack]

I won't be holding my breath for that one.

 

[mount lefroy]

We didn't know for sure that existed at this point in 2013. It certainly didn't exist for us in 2012. Now -- it became apparent later as the guys like Taveze Calhoun, McKinney, Dak, etc actually stepped forward as leaders -- but that's once again using hindsight to change perception of a situation when it actually existed.

I know for sure it doesnt exist at this moment. Thats not to say some player or players might not take that initiative. It means it hasnt happened. In 2013 we did not fall apart against inferior teams. Even if the fans disnt understand Dak was a leader, the team did.

Who knows. The team may very well know of the next leader like Dak on the sidelines. But to me, the ship has no rudder.

That is not a feeling ive had during or before Dak. To include this moment in 2013.

 

[Go Budaw]

You obviously weren't actually here and reading -- if this is your rebuttal. Bama 2012. aTm 2012. LSU 2012. OM 2012. Northwestern 2012. We didn't score after halftime against a team with a pulse until the aTm game in 2013. The entire narrative was how the team had quit on Mullen and we were getting blown out by everyone that mattered. I know this because I was on that meltdown train.


Auburn was a fireable cluster -- if that had continued. As was South Alabama. But this team isn't showing me any quit. I'm seeing flashes early in the season from this team that I didn't see until late in the aTm game in 2013 right before Dak went down -- and the defensive effort that followed that up.


2013 verbatim.


Certainly debatable.


Why can't we let it play out before we define what can and can't happen.

You raise an interesting point regarding the 2012 team. There were certainly games we weren't adequately prepared that year, but that was never the case in 2013. This team is far more similar to 2012 than 2013 in most respects. In fact, you could argue that we are identical to the 2012 team except without the cupcake schedule. The number of upperclassmen starters we have this year are far more similar to that team. Really the only similarity to 2013 is that both teams were breaking in a redshirt sophomore QB. That's it.

All of the above is why many people are not optimistic going forward. Most see next year as being 2013ish where we will probably be doing well to get to 6-6, and 2018 seems to be the next possible year where we might actually make some noise. Waiting 2 years for another decent team is not appealing to most people. 2012-2013 happened due to too many misses on the recruiting trail in 2009-2010, and we repeated the same mistakes with what looks to be the vast majority of the 2012-2014 signing classes. Its very frustrating to see this staff continue to make the same mistakes in recruiting as that is what this all boils down to.

All that combined with Mullen's general demeanor and job shopping is what has many people wanting change. I'm personally not there yet, but could certainly be at that point by Thanksgiving.