The OFFICIAL RU-tOSU Game Thread

[RutgersRaRa]

Playing in a power conference with a squad full of non shooters is a sure recipe for being ranked last in the B1G.The only way out of this morass is for getting a couple players to transfer and be replaced with 5th year seniors or jucos who are shooters.

I don't think they necessarily need to be seniors or jucos. If Thiam or a new recruit can figure out the speed of the game and drain their shots, that will work, too. One thing is obvious tor recruits, and it's what our offensive schemes are and what they can be. Each year in this system will make it easier for new players to fit within the offense since there will be fewer players trying to figure it out. This year it was a baptism by fire due to the overhaul of every aspect of the game, but in years to come it will be possible for a freshman shooter to step onto the court and contribute. When you look at how Corey's quickness can break defenses down, and now that he is more comfortable running it, if he has a shooter who knows where to move on the perimeter without the ball, he can dish it to him and it's a free shot from there.

 

[RUJMM78]

FT misses have nothing to do with coaching and everything to do with having a group of players with little offensive skills. It is what it is

After every game , the same discussion takes place and the answer always should be the same,namely,the lack of players who are shooters is the reason for the losses .This explanation won't satisfy some fans who want a quick fix like more practice shooting foul shots.

 

[SirScarlet]

Good post, and I think it supports the idea that something systemic is impacting the shooting, since many of our starters' numbers are down. This, to me, suggests that the new demands on the team are impacting their psyches, which makes sense given the difference between the way Eddie coached and the way Pike coaches, especially in practice. It may be a case of an ego blow to the guys once they discovered they had so much ground to make up (especially in Corey's case, who actually tested the NBA waters but got no bites). He is an incredible athlete, but had/has a lot to learn about the position before an NBA coach will turn a team over team him. This is where the cognitive demands might be bleeding into their mental strength at the line, and perhaps they're overthinking things now because they re being trained to think about things they didn't have to under Eddie (or elsewhere, such as Freeman playing Juco).

Sometimes I see our guys at the line and it reminds me of Charles Barkley's golf swing after he became a train wreck. He used to have a pretty nice swing, then he started thinking so much about it that it snowballed out of control. Our FT shooting won't devolve to that extent, but it is emblematic of the impact that thinking/overthinking can have on an athlete. I think we are taking one step back to take two forward, and the place our backward step is showing up is FT shooting because we are losing games by small margins, margins that would have been overcome with a 15% improvement in FT shooting. Mercifully, this is probably fixable, especially since the guys shot well in the past. But when the whole team reduces production by similar numbers, it says something systemic is the root cause, and to me it's most likely the new system and thinking about what they're doing on the court. Once the offense (and defense) comes more naturally, rather than cognitively, their motion at the line will return.

That's my guess.

You say Barkley...in the past I have said Knoblauch I completely believe it is a mental issue right now. As evidenced by the stats.

at the end of the day, I am more than willing to accept this 1 step back (As you said)...because it's clear that Pike is building a system that will pay off in the long run. This is why I have tried to go out of my way to say in all my points that I love what he is doing.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

 

[SirScarlet]

After every game , the same discussion takes place and the answer always should be the same,namely,the lack of players who are shooters is the reason for the losses .This explanation won't satisfy some fans who want a quick fix like more practice shooting foul shots.

look above.

the stats are the stats. are you still hanging on to this line of thought?

I think the more appropriate discussion should be WHY our players are not shooting up what looks like could be a 70% average.

But the answer is NOT we have bad shooters. The irony of your post is that what you are saying is the quick fix/simple answer.

I will fully agree that the solution is not simple.

 

[RU MAN]

I needed to take a break from this thread last night, but wanted to circle back and get my final comments on this.

1) I fully agree with you @RutgersRaRa that he's probably tried everything. I do believe my comments on Pike "owning" the poor FT shooting are getting taken out of context a bit. But I am not backing down from my belief that the drop in FT shooting is something that we can/should hold him (and the staff accountable for). I do get all the points that we may be more tired, it might be lower on the priority list, etc.

2) At the end of the day, it has cost has several games, so I am not sure how we can just chalk it up to "we have poor shooters". I dont believe we have great shooters so I am not expecting 90+ % FT shooters (context on my position)

3) I looked up a few stats

a) Corey - last year 71%...this year 63%...8 point drop
b) Williams - last year ~80%...this year ~73%...7 point drop
c) DeShawn Freeman was a 70% FT shooter in JUCO. Did you know that? This year he is shooting 60%....10 point drop
d) Candido shot 69% at JC...this year...42%
e) I think Nigel is about the same %age from KSU to now...I checked last night...but not this morning
f) Gettys 74%....this year 68%

I didnt check the others...as I dont think there are either meaningful opportunities this year, or last year.

But people on these boards just say we have bad shooters. Rough math, if we shot 70% from the FT line (which is what all the guys above shot last year), we would have several more wins.

Am I saying this is all our staffs fault. No. But I do view this as my biggest criticism of the staff this year. Because I do believe that a coach's job is to get players to play up to their potential. and if they had these %ages in the past, they are capable of these #s. I started looking into this early in the season, and my conclusion (as I have posted numerous times on these boards) is that this has become a mental issue. and when you have a mental issue that affects essentially the ENTIRE team...how is that not on the staff?

Hope this is more clear (as I am typing this while working )

And for @RU MAN ...no, I have never played or coached competitive basketball (other than playing in the gyms while at RU if that counts...lol)...but I was a damn decent FT shooter And this came with mucho mucho practice. But it doesnt change the legitimacy of my points.

Scarlet, fair enough. I too was a pretty good FT shooter, because I practiced, practiced and practiced even more. But I was also a good jump shooter as well because of practice. I will tell you this: your analytics regarding percentage dropoffs from the previous year work when you're analyzing widgets or other performances, like a baseball player's batting average. You can't necessarily apply that to BB players especially when one considers S&C changes, having to play more minutes per game than you're used to playing and the circumstances. Again we agree to disagree. A coach can teach only so much in helping a poor FT shooter's mechanics. But when the game is on it's up to the player to utilize those mechanics and the hours in the gym practicing FT's that will or will not come through in a game situation.

As for one of my coaches, which I also did with my kids, I made them do wind sprints until they were tuckered out, and then made them shoot 10 FT's in a row. If they didn't hit at least 7 out of 10 they had to run again and shoot again. I also know it's effective to recreate a game situation, running up and down the court and then forcing the player to step up to the line and hit his FT's. If he missed one or two, either he runs or it forces the rest of his team to run with him. Trust me after a long and hard practice, if you're not the one shooting FT's and the kid on the line misses, you're quite pissed off at him for making you run too. And for me and my teammates or the kids I coached it really had a positive effect on them.

 

[goru7]

Scarlet, fair enough. I too was a pretty good FT shooter, because I practiced, practiced and practiced even more. But I was also a good jump shooter as well because of practice. I will tell you this: your analytics regarding percentage dropoffs from the previous year work when you're analyzing widgets or other performances, like a baseball player's batting average. You can't necessarily apply that to BB players especially when one considers S&C changes, having to play more minutes per game than you're used to playing and the circumstances. Again we agree to disagree. A coach can teach only so much in helping a poor FT shooter's mechanics. But when the game is on it's up to the player to utilize those mechanics and the hours in the gym practicing FT's that will or will not come through in a game situation.

As for one of my coaches, which I also did with my kids, I made them do wind sprints until they were tuckered out, and then made them shoot 10 FT's in a row. If they didn't hit at least 7 out of 10 they had to run again and shoot again. I also know it's effective to recreate a game situation, running up and down the court and then forcing the player to step up to the line and hit his FT's. If he missed one or two, either he runs or it forces the rest of his team to run with him. Trust me after a long and hard practice, if you're not the one shooting FT's and the kid on the line misses, you're quite pissed off at him for making you run too. And for me and my teammates or the kids I coached it really had a positive effect on them.

I understand what you are saying but our guys are not just missing free throws because they might be winded, they are missing coming out of timeouts, and missing when they are fouled as soon as they enter the game.

 

[80RU]

LOL – – The idea that it is Jordan's fault that the team's free-throw shooting a year after he left is significantly worse than when he left is just off the charts crazy.

I understand what you are saying but our guys are not just missing free throws because they might be winded, they are missing coming out of timeouts, and missing when they are fouled as soon as they enter the game.

And, with a seven man rotation last year, the players would have been more winded. I do not buy into the Dr. Phil style explanations above. It is a simple case of discipline on the mechanics.

 

[goru7]

And, with a seven man rotation last year, the players would have been more winded. I do not buy into the Dr. Phil style explanations above. It is a simple case of discipline on the mechanics.

I think it is almost totally mental at this point in the year.

 

[RutgersRaRa]

And, with a seven man rotation last year, the players would have been more winded. I do not buy into the Dr. Phil style explanations above. It is a simple case of discipline on the mechanics.

Some of their mechanics and arcs are pretty solid and repetitive, they just miss. Some of the guys have very little wasted motion and very little extra motion and still miss, so it's purely mechanics. I think this part of the thread shows why it is so difficult to diagnose why a player shoots poorly from the line. Perhaps the downtick is due to the staff tweaking their motions and the players haven't adjusted or they were the wrong adjustments. Not sure, and I'd sure love to hear Pike tell us what they've been doing.