Stuck in Neutral

[richbrookstomato]

The recruiting game has changed quickly for Cal because it seems most kids in the top 10 want to get to the NBA as easily as possible. If they can get to a Final 4, great, but it’s not the main objective.

You pair that with Nike and Adidas pushing these kids toward certain schools and you get what Cal is dealing with in today’s recruiting game.

The college game is going to change immensely when kids can enter the NBA Draft straight out of HS, so Cal will then promote his development of players to get the best kids that decide to go to college. He’s starting that transition right now.

Cal doesn’t want to compromise himself or HIS UK Program by taking kids that are selfish. I remember after his 1st season he stated that he would never be held hostage again.

So, IMHO, this is how we got to this point of not getting ANY recruit we want.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

The recruiting game has changed quickly for Cal because it seems most kids in the top 10 want to get to the NBA as easily as possible. If they can get to a Final 4, great, but it’s not the main objective.

You pair that with Nike and Adidas pushing these kids toward certain schools and you get what Cal is dealing with in today’s recruiting game.

The college game is going to change immensely when kids can enter the NBA Draft straight out of HS, so Cal will then promote his development of players to get the best kids that decide to go to college. He’s starting that transition right now.

Cal doesn’t want to compromise himself or HIS UK Program by taking kids that are selfish. I remember after his 1st season he stated that he would never be held hostage again.

So, IMHO, this is how we got to this point of not getting ANY recruit we want.

All of this is true, but Calipari has continued to offer kids like Barrett, Trae Young, Stewart, etc.

So my general question is this: do these kids only become selfish after they say "no thanks" to UK, or are they selfish the entire time and Cal and his entire staff are merely misreading the character of the elites who say no?

I guess a third option is that maybe some of them aren't selfish and they merely prefer the pitch that other coaches are giving them.

 

[anon_9qtxg60vqzy0y]

Yup, something in Cal's pitch is off and I think it's his honesty. I think he is way too honest with these kids and refuses to even come close to being misleading.

That's cool, don't lie to these kids, but do you really have to hammer home the whole "earned, not given" thing?

Cal has finished 1st or 2nd in recruiting classes since he’s been at UK and somethings “off” with his pitch? What has Coach K done with the top level recruits he’s gotten?

• Harry Giles and Jayson Tatum - lost in the round of 32.

•Marvin Bagley And Wendell Carter -lost in Elite 8.

•Zion Williamson, RJ Barrett, Cam Reddish- lost in Elite 8.

The truth is, top level stars isn’t always the recipe for championships. Where has Virginia and Villanova’s classes been ranked?

 

[richbrookstomato]

All of this is true, but Calipari has continued to offer kids like Barrett, Trae Young, Stewart, etc.

So my general question is this: do these kids only become selfish after they say "no thanks" to UK, or are they selfish the entire time and Cal and his entire staff are merely misreading the character of the elites who say no?

I guess a third option is that maybe some of them aren't selfish and they merely prefer the pitch that other coaches are giving them.

Oh, I never meant to portray Cal’s lack of getting these top 5 kids lately as being all on the player or that they are all “selfish”. I believe it is more with what Nike and Coach K in particular are selling to these kids.

Cal is dealing with being negatively portrayed by other programs and having the Nike crew influence these AAU coaches to push other programs.

Cal still wants these top 5 kids, it just seems like his mantra of “Kentucky isn’t for everyone” has kept him from getting them instead of making a UK offer exclusive like it was his first 5 years here.

 

[kl40504_rivals]

What has to change to get the elite of the elite recruits committing to UK again?

Seems like we haven’t been able to get over the hump with the top level recruits. I know this past class has had weird circumstances and probably cheating involved to keep kids closer to home, it’s just been frustrating.

I guess the number one or two recruiting class is not good enough. Step it up Cal.

 

[akaukswoosh]

Cal should start hiring family members too, that way the NCAA will fast track the demise of nepotistic hiring.

I had to chuckle.:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

 

[Joneslab]

Cal has finished 1st or 2nd in recruiting classes since he’s been at UK and somethings “off” with his pitch?

The best way to look at UK's recruiting to test it isn't to look at rankings. Cal could coach for twenty more years and he'd have the 1 or 2 ranked recruiting class every year. That's by necessity given all we lose; if he didn't have a top ranked recruiting class UK couldn't stay afloat.

What tells you more about where UK is is to look at the top of the top and which players are going where. The Davises, Towns, Julius Randle types have been much harder to get for UK of late. These are the guys we're coveting early on who tend to slip from our grasp as the recruiting season goes on. They weren't slipping a few years ago.

This wouldn't matter if UK were getting more players to stay. But we still lose one-and-dones while missing on those elite/elite recruits. This is why you've seen a little slippage in the program IMO in terms of its results in March. Those elite players and/or experienced players are the difference between Elite 8s and Final Fours in my mind.

 

[HagginHall1999]

I think what is being sold by many schools is:

°Go to program X and you can do whatever you want. We will play through you.

I think what Cal is selling is:

°Come here and learn to be a complete player. Be unselfish and be about the team.

I don't know that it is being selfish if a player picks another school...it is about what they want as an individual...hence, UK isn't for everyone...that is a fact.

The funny part about all of this is that Coach K is way more of a roll the ball out coach with the OAD than Cal has ever been. Yet the critics will say otherwise.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

1. Fire Barbee and get an upgrade.

This one makes me scratch my head every single time. I keep seeing people wanting either Barbee or Justus (or both) fired. But I never see any solid reasons why. Payne seems to be off limits for some reason.

Would love for someone to explain with real evidence why an assistant needs to be let go. Surely someone here attends practices, understands the duties of each assistant, and can share with us details on how those assistants fall short in their assigned job descriptions. TIA.

 

[TBCat]

Getting bed back in with Nike might be cheating,no thank you

F Nike. Don't let a shoe company control our program. Besides what good has it done the teams that are in bed.

The "problem" with recruiting lately is that big money has developed around the top 10 recruits. I mean it's always been there but it's become more noticeable now. The handlers around these kids don't want them at UK because they lose influence. They want them somewhere they can control them like Oregon. Or the latest flavor of the month Memphis. These programs not only don't keep outside influences away from the kids they openly court those interests.

Still we've only been reduced to getting top 15 kids instead of top 5 kids. If you can't win with the recruits we are getting then something is wrong with your program. It does require Cal to adjust to the new landscape however. Most of the kids he gets now are 2 year or more players now. They aren't real one and dones. EJ for example has way more upside that Blackshear. The difference today is comparing a fully developed senior to a incoming sophomore that is still a work in progress.

 

[TortElvisII]

How does riding a scooter hurt recruiting?

He didn't type that. He said it isn't helping. You can't infer hurting from that.

 

[bigblueroscoe]

What has to change to get the elite of the elite recruits committing to UK again?

Seems like we haven’t been able to get over the hump with the top level recruits. I know this past class has had weird circumstances and probably cheating involved to keep kids closer to home, it’s just been frustrating.

In my opinion, Cal is being too honest with these kids.

He seems to really drive home the whole "I'm not guaranteeing you anything, you have to work for everything against other talented players".

I'm not saying he should lie to these kids or mislead them in any way, but while Cal is telling these kids that it's all "earned, not given", everyone else is giving these kids the hard sell.

Kerry Blackshear wanted to believe he was going to be a featured guy and he most likely would have been, but when you tell him that he has to earn everything he gets, well, that's not the warm and fuzzy feeling Kerry wanted.

And no, I don't know exactly what KB was told, but Cal consistently talks about what he tells these guys when they visit. These kids are spoiled. Get them to sign, then run them hard in practice. The cream always rises to the top.

Keep telling these top 5 kids that they are going to have to work hard and nothing will be given and we'll just keep missing on those guys.

I agree with this

 

[HagginHall1999]

He didn't type that. He said it isn't helping. You can't infer hurting from that.

What the hell difference does it make what Cal is riding around Lexington on?

It doesn't help or hurt...the whole thought of that could make my ears bleed...ha

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

This one makes me scratch my head every single time. I keep seeing people wanting either Barbee or Justus (or both) fired. But I never see any solid reasons why. Payne seems to be off limits for some reason.

Would love for someone to explain with real evidence why an assistant needs to be let go. Surely someone here attends practices, understands the duties of each assistant, and can share with us details on how those assistants fall short in their assigned job descriptions. TIA.

My first four points are anecdotal, but my major contention is point #4:
#1. Who do you think Cal was going to replace when it came to bringing in Penny or Jalen Rose? I'm answering your question, so it's your turn to answer mine.
#2. He is rarely mentioned as being a catalyst in any recruiting processes. Justus and Payne often are.
#3. He's rarely mentioned by the players as being a day-to-day guy who helps them. Payne often is.
#4. Recruiting has taken a significant downturn, to the tune of over 33% less top 10 players per recruiting cycle and 400% less top 5 players per recruiting cycle.

Top 5 players pre-Barbee hire:

Cousins
Wall
Towns
MKG
Davis
Noel
Knight
Kanter
Andrew Harrison
Randle = 10 total players
----
Top 6-10 guys pre-Barbee hire:

Teague
Goodwin
Aaron Harrison
Young
Johnson
Lyles
Jones
Poythress = 8 players

18 total top 10 guys in 6 cycles = 3 per season.
----------------

Top 5 players post-Barbee hire:

Fox (I'll be liberal here and count him)
Skal = 2 players

Top 6-10 players post-Barbee hire:

Knox
Murray
Monk
Bam
Whitney
Johnson
Maxey = 7 players

Totals: Nine top 10 players in five cycles, or less than 2 per cycle.

* Barbee arrived in time for the 2015 season, but did not recruit anyone for that team.

Is Barbee terrible? No. But we can do better. Cal evidently agreed when he went after Hardaway and Rose.

 

[TortElvisII]

What the hell difference does it make what Cal is riding around Lexington on?

It doesn't help or hurt...the whole thought of that could make my ears bleed...ha

Carbon footprint.

 

[JC CATS]

There are a hell of a lot of schools that wish they were stuck in Neutral like UK lol

 

[HagginHall1999]

My first four points are anecdotal, but my major contention is point #4:
#1. Who do you think Cal was going to replace when it came to bringing in Penny or Jalen Rose? I'm answering your question, so it's your turn to answer mine.
#2. He is rarely mentioned as being a catalyst in any recruiting processes. Justus and Payne often are.
#3. He's rarely mentioned by the players as being a day-to-day guy who helps them. Payne often is.
#4. Recruiting has taken a significant downturn, to the tune of over 33% less top 10 players per recruiting cycle and 400% less top 5 players per recruiting cycle.

Top 5 players pre-Barbee hire:

Cousins
Wall
Towns
MKG
Davis
Noel
Knight
Kanter
Andrew Harrison
Randle = 10 total players
----
Top 6-10 guys pre-Barbee hire:

Teague
Goodwin
Aaron Harrison
Young
Johnson
Lyles
Jones
Poythress = 8 players

18 total top 10 guys in 6 cycles = 3 per season.
----------------

Top 5 players post-Barbee hire:

Fox (I'll be liberal here and count him)
Skal = 2 players

Top 6-10 players post-Barbee hire:

Knox
Murray
Monk
Bam
Whitney
Johnson
Maxey = 7 players

Totals: Nine top 10 players in five cycles, or less than 2 per cycle.

* Barbee arrived in time for the 2015 season, but did not recruit anyone for that team.

Is Barbee terrible? No. But we can do better. Cal evidently agreed when he went after Hardaway and Rose.

What you failed to include was WWW gone shortly pre-Barbee and Nike stuff was post-Barbee.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

What you failed to include was WWW gone shortly pre-Barbee and Nike stuff was post-Barbee.

I mean, Nike has likely played a role, but how much? This is where speculation runs wild on this board with narratives that usually offer shelter to UK when it comes to wrongdoing. Am I speculating in the other direction to some degree? Certainly, but that's why we have these discussions.

Also, what do people think Wes was doing for us? He wasn't acting as a choir boy for Kentucky or Cal. He was helping deliver recruits. If we were playing in that sandbox before Barbee, why did we get out of it?

Hardline results have a way of dissipating loose speculation. What we do know is that recruiting has seen 400% less top 5 recruits per cycle in the Barbee era and about 35% less top 10 guys per recruiting cycle.

I guess I could shield Barbee by blaming all of it on Nike, but I was asked to give my opinion on why I'm not a huge fan of him, and I'm giving my opinion here. If you guys want to blame all or most of the change in trajectory on Nike, that's fine too, but both camps are largely speculating. Again, beyond all the speculation, we see real numbers pointing toward downward trends in landing elite prospects. The change correlates to Barbee's arrival in Lexington. Is it enough to lock in causation? Obviously not, but it is enough for me to at least consider about what life would look like with a new assistant coach in his place.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

There are a hell of a lot of schools that wish they were stuck in Neutral like UK lol

All true, but Alexander the Great wasn't content when he took over southeastern Europe.

There's always room for improvement, and what would a message board be if we didn't discuss possible avenues of making the program better?

 

[HagginHall1999]

I mean, Nike has likely played a role, but how much? This is where speculation runs wild on this board with narratives that usually offer shelter to UK when it comes to wrongdoing. Am I speculating in the other direction to some degree? Certainly, but that's why we have these discussions.

Also, what do people think Wes was doing for us? He wasn't acting as a choir boy for Kentucky or Cal. He was helping deliver recruits. If we were playing in that sandbox before Barbee, why did we get out of it?

Hardline results have a way of dissipating loose speculation. What we do know is that recruiting has seen 400% less top 5 recruits per cycle in the Barbee era and about 35% less top 10 guys per recruiting cycle.

I guess I could shield Barbee by blaming all of it on Nike, but I was asked to give my opinion on why I'm not a huge fan of him, and I'm giving my opinion here. If you guys want to blame all or most of the change in trajectory on Nike, that's fine too, but both camps are largely speculating. Again, beyond all the speculation, we see real numbers pointing toward downward trends in landing elite prospects. The change correlates to Barbee's arrival in Lexington. Is it enough to lock in causation? Obviously not, but it is enough for me to at least consider about what life would look like with a new assistant coach in his place.

You are entitled to your opinion, 100% agree.

We just have differing views on this matter. IMO WWW had a lot of pull in getting some of the top talent. Something went down with Cal/Nike or Nike/LeBron that shifted a lot of that momentum.

Cal is still pulling Top 2 classes annually and it still needs to be recognized that no matter who is getting the Elite of the Elite, only two teams have won with such players in one season...UK and Duke...and I think we can all agree Duke shouldn't have won in 2015, but did because we lost.

Cal obviously does great with Elite talent, 2 of his 3 best teams were comprised mostly of Elite OAD. Maybe 3 of 4 best.

All that said, if Cal wasn't happy with Barbee/Justus, they'd be gone. There is a reason they are here and he is obviously confident in their abilities. Second guessing his opinion on recruiting is a tough thing to do considering his long term track record IMO.

 

[kyjeff1]

Cal has finished 1st or 2nd in recruiting classes since he’s been at UK and somethings “off” with his pitch? What has Coach K done with the top level recruits he’s gotten?

• Harry Giles and Jayson Tatum - lost in the round of 32.

•Marvin Bagley And Wendell Carter -lost in Elite 8.

•Zion Williamson, RJ Barrett, Cam Reddish- lost in Elite 8.

The truth is, top level stars isn’t always the recipe for championships. Where has Virginia and Villanova’s classes been ranked?

See @Joneslab 's post below. I literally cannot explain it any better. Plus, I truly believe Cal wins a title with 2 of the last 3 teams duke has had. There's your difference. Yeah, Cal is getting the 2nd rated class every year, but he has to since he loses so much. But who was Cal's last transcendent player? That makes a difference when you start over fresh every year.

The best way to look at UK's recruiting to test it isn't to look at rankings. Cal could coach for twenty more years and he'd have the 1 or 2 ranked recruiting class every year. That's by necessity given all we lose; if he didn't have a top ranked recruiting class UK couldn't stay afloat.

What tells you more about where UK is is to look at the top of the top and which players are going where. The Davises, Towns, Julius Randle types have been much harder to get for UK of late. These are the guys we're coveting early on who tend to slip from our grasp as the recruiting season goes on. They weren't slipping a few years ago.

This wouldn't matter if UK were getting more players to stay. But we still lose one-and-dones while missing on those elite/elite recruits. This is why you've seen a little slippage in the program IMO in terms of its results in March. Those elite players and/or experienced players are the difference between Elite 8s and Final Fours in my mind.

 

[tenncats]

The recruiting game has changed quickly for Cal because it seems most kids in the top 10 want to get to the NBA as easily as possible. If they can get to a Final 4, great, but it’s not the main objective.

You pair that with Nike and Adidas pushing these kids toward certain schools and you get what Cal is dealing with in today’s recruiting game.

The college game is going to change immensely when kids can enter the NBA Draft straight out of HS, so Cal will then promote his development of players to get the best kids that decide to go to college. He’s starting that transition right now.

Cal doesn’t want to compromise himself or HIS UK Program by taking kids that are selfish. I remember after his 1st season he stated that he would never be held hostage again.

So, IMHO, this is how we got to this point of not getting ANY recruit we want.

I think Cals main objective is getting players drafted to the NBA over going to final fours, so we should be raking in all the guys, really don't understand what has happened with the top guys lately

 

[Cobb4uk_rivals287622]

This is true as well. The recruiting world has flattened out. Used to be one-and-dones were seen as program-destroying rogues. Now everybody's after them. Makes the recruiting game harder when you're up against multiple programs who are all doing aggressive things (offering perks, hiring relatives, recruiting players in their home states) to land these top kids.

That said, Kentucky gets these guys in for visits all the time, he's just had a harder time closing than he was a few years ago. So something about the pitch isn't quite right. That's where our assistant coaching staff might be a significant problem.

Anyone ever wonder why Cal completely stops recruiting certain players and later find out their family was looking to the highest bidder. Just look at Airizona & Kansas as examples, there are others also. Cal understands we don't need their baggage. Cal been great recruiting character young.

 

[morgousky]

I mean, Nike has likely played a role, but how much? This is where speculation runs wild on this board with narratives that usually offer shelter to UK when it comes to wrongdoing. Am I speculating in the other direction to some degree? Certainly, but that's why we have these discussions.

Also, what do people think Wes was doing for us? He wasn't acting as a choir boy for Kentucky or Cal. He was helping deliver recruits. If we were playing in that sandbox before Barbee, why did we get out of it?

Hardline results have a way of dissipating loose speculation. What we do know is that recruiting has seen 400% less top 5 recruits per cycle in the Barbee era and about 35% less top 10 guys per recruiting cycle.

I guess I could shield Barbee by blaming all of it on Nike, but I was asked to give my opinion on why I'm not a huge fan of him, and I'm giving my opinion here. If you guys want to blame all or most of the change in trajectory on Nike, that's fine too, but both camps are largely speculating. Again, beyond all the speculation, we see real numbers pointing toward downward trends in landing elite prospects. The change correlates to Barbee's arrival in Lexington. Is it enough to lock in causation? Obviously not, but it is enough for me to at least consider about what life would look like with a new assistant coach in his place.

Cal has been in a mini war with Nike since 2014. Around 2015 it started to take effect. Nike stepped in and started delivering guys he considered his to Duke, paying them along the way. Coach K saw the writing on the wall. Cal was going to land so many crazy good players that he’d make K’s legacy look like child’s play in a decade. K gave up his system and what works for him to stop it, and K and Nike started playing dirty. That’s what happened.

Cal didn’t adjust, he fought it thinking his track record with the kids at that point would make the difference. It didn’t. And he didn’t change course fast enough.

The good news is with the FBI involved Nike is having to play much more carefully. And since K hasn’t had success with the OAD’s, it should be a coupling effect to slow it down.

I do believe Cal is too loyal to Barbee, but I think people need to understand something. Cal would remove Barbee if he thought he was the problem. Obviously whatever the problem is, Cal isn’t linking it to his recruiters. This is very important to consider.

 

[LeroyByrd24]

Cal should start hiring family members too, that way the NCAA will fast track the demise of nepotistic hiring.

He used to do that at Memphis. Not sure why he hasn’t done it here

 

[CatsPaws270]

If Dante reclassifies...we'll have the #1 class....

 

[BlueVelvetFog]

How does riding a scooter hurt recruiting?

Plane is faster

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Cal has finished 1st or 2nd in recruiting classes since he’s been at UK and somethings “off” with his pitch? What has Coach K done with the top level recruits he’s gotten?

• Harry Giles and Jayson Tatum - lost in the round of 32.

•Marvin Bagley And Wendell Carter -lost in Elite 8.

•Zion Williamson, RJ Barrett, Cam Reddish- lost in Elite 8.

The truth is, top level stars isn’t always the recipe for championships. Where has Virginia and Villanova’s classes been ranked?

It hasn't been the recipe for Coach K, but it's already proven to be the recipe for Calipari in the modern era. Cal's 5 Final Fours since 2008 all featured a top 5 recruit.

He does better with elites than Coach K does.