Stephen A. Smith Makes The Case That Cal Is Underachieving
- Thread starter ZaytovenCat
- Start date
Cal= Dean Smith without the cheating, but DS didn't have the ond so I think his is much worse and many consider him the best ever...I hope Cal gets another title or two, but I really don't expect it.
The Pitino/Tubby run in the 90s was our greatest run since Rupp. So let's judge them side by side
Pitino
92- Elite 8
93- Final Four
94- 2nd rd
95- Elite 8
96- National Champions
97- Runner- Up
Tubby
98- National Champions
99- Elite 8
That was it. That's what we all pined for forever before Cal got here.
Total
Championships- 2
Runner-up- 1
Final Fours- 4
Elite 8s- 7
Calipari era
2010- Elite 8
2011- Final Four
2012- National champions
2013- NIT
2014- Runner-up
2015- Final Four
2016- 2nd rd
2017- Elite 8
Total
Championships- 1
Runner-up- 1
Final Fours- 4
Elite 8- 6
Not much different, is it? This has been fun as hell.
Who cares what Cal says?
I am going by what you said.
I have always been a Tubby fan. I know Tubby and Donna. I also hate to see our own crap on him so bad. Even though I do agree he could have performed at a higher level towards the end.
Doesn't mean that Cal isn't miles ahead of him, I used the FF's and recruiting success as the deciding factor for my opinion.
I agree Joe B would have been destroyed on here.
As would Rupp in the 60's. We have a portion of our fanbase that are unrealistic and honestly do not understand the game as much as they think they do.
Yeah, DS had his best players multiple years. Just think, Devon Booker would have been a junior this season.
Collin Cowherd said he has to win at least one more to be considered with Dean Smith and Coach K. Dean Smith?? Really? They can say what they want but has there ever been a coach do less with more than Dean freaking Smith? He consistently had an NBA roster and was only able to win twice. Once was with not only the greatest player to ever play but a team full of other future NBA stars and the second time was when they were not attending class so had plenty of time to work on their game. Dean Smith is possibly the most over rated coach in any sport.
With all the resources available to Stephen A at ESPN, I wonder how many Emmy Awards he has. Must be at least 6 or 7 by now. Or Marconi Awards for his radio work. Or how about Pulitzers for his years in the newspaper business. Must have a huge trophy case.
Or does he just have his controversies and ESPN suspensions?
Or does he just have his controversies and ESPN suspensions?
That's why Calipari's run is more impressive to me than the run we had in the 90s. He's doing it with a completely different group of kids almost every year. Our success in the 90s was a big collection of the same exact talent.
1996-We were loaded and had three seniors who all played in the NBA, a sophomore lottery pick, a junior future lottery pick, a freshmen future lottery pick and a loaded bench.
1997- Lose Delk, Walker, Pope, McCarty and get back.
1998- Take the same team as the 97 runner-up with only losing Anderson, Mercer, Epps and win it all.
Just think, we had seniors in 1999 who had been a part of a team who had been to three national title games in a row. We had so many good players back then but very few were "superstars" and they all stayed for years.
And again, he had these guys for three to four years.
Go ahead and disregard those 1980s teams and look at the 90s teams. They were the favorite in 1997 and 1998 (Guthridge's squad but still) with Jamison and Carter and never even got to the title game. They lost to a four seed and a three seed both times. In 1995, they got bounced by Arkansas and they had Stackhouse and Wallace.
Before Cal got here, UNC and Duke got all of the All-Americans it seemed.
brianpoe "Who cares what Cal says?
I am going by what you said."
Yep - I misread your post
"I have always been a Tubby fan. I know Tubby and Donna. I also hate to see our own crap on him so bad. Even though I do agree he could have performed at a higher level towards the end."
Agree completely - I don't think Smith's heart was in it the last couple of years. But the first eight years were much better than many want to admit - not counting you in that group.
Doesn't mean that Cal isn't miles ahead of him, I used the FF's and recruiting success as the deciding factor for my opinion.
Valid opinion - not quite shared by me, but valid nontheless
"I agree Joe B would have been destroyed on here.
As would Rupp in the 60's."
Hadn't really thought of that - Rupp that is....
"We have a portion of our fanbase that are unrealistic and honestly do not understand the game as much as they think they do.
Though not eye-to-eye, we're actually pretty much on the same page here.
I am going by what you said."
Yep - I misread your post
"I have always been a Tubby fan. I know Tubby and Donna. I also hate to see our own crap on him so bad. Even though I do agree he could have performed at a higher level towards the end."
Agree completely - I don't think Smith's heart was in it the last couple of years. But the first eight years were much better than many want to admit - not counting you in that group.
Doesn't mean that Cal isn't miles ahead of him, I used the FF's and recruiting success as the deciding factor for my opinion.
Valid opinion - not quite shared by me, but valid nontheless
"I agree Joe B would have been destroyed on here.
As would Rupp in the 60's."
Hadn't really thought of that - Rupp that is....
"We have a portion of our fanbase that are unrealistic and honestly do not understand the game as much as they think they do.
Though not eye-to-eye, we're actually pretty much on the same page here.
I see your point but I think most reasonable people would have expected a few more of these recruits from these #1/2 classes to stick around for more than one year. Can you imagine how many titles we might have had had even 3-4 key players stayed around? Heck, if Marcus Lee would have stayed this year, things could have been entirely different.
What do you expect when you've won as many titles as Stephan A has!
Ohio State was the overwhelming favorite for 2011. And I thought Louisville was the pre-season and overall No. 1 seed in 2013? I considered them the best team that year.
The 2010..2015 teams had at least 4-6 players each now playing major roles in the nba...no problem with people questioning what success he has had because, despite being young , he easily had the most talent in the country, including Wisconsin!
Im unsure if the stat is true because i havent done any background, hell, the stat may have even been posted on this board through all the threads, but a caller on local ESPN affliliate here in Louisille just said:
Cal has 12 wins vs top 4 seeds since hes been here. Roy, Pitino, K and Self COMBINE for 12 wins vs top 4 seeds in the same timeframe
If that is underachieving then what the F*** is achieving? Dude has outshined every other 'top coach' in the game and we routinely get shafted by the selection committee/NCAA.
Cal has 12 wins vs top 4 seeds since hes been here. Roy, Pitino, K and Self COMBINE for 12 wins vs top 4 seeds in the same timeframe
If that is underachieving then what the F*** is achieving? Dude has outshined every other 'top coach' in the game and we routinely get shafted by the selection committee/NCAA.
This is a deeper question than most give credit for. Has cal underachieved?
Well, compare him to the other greats: K, Roy, Izzo, Pitino, Self, etc. In the last 8 years Uk has outperformed all those programs with Duke being the only debate. Duke won two titles with good teams but certainly not the best teams those seasons. Everyone admits titles are pretty damn hard to win - look how long it took Dean smith just to get 1. So in that case Cal has been phenomenal, maybe even the best as a final four in itself is a major accomplishment
But that doesn't answer the whole question. It's has he underachieved. If you dug up some old threads from the John Wall year you had many fans believing Cal would have 3 titles by now - and that certainly could be the case. When you look at the NBA talent produced even if they are freshman it isn't paralleled. In that case yes, he has won less titles than people thought he would by now- but again titles are hard to win. You can't blame Cal for missing titles in 2011 or 2014 - just getting those teams to the final four is a massive accomplishment. When OSU fans count near misses for titles do they count 2011? No, because Cals cats took down more experienced and better teams that year
Here is why one title is hard to swallow. The only years Cal has had the best team in the country was 2012, 2015, and arguably 2010. But when you look at tournament runs how many times has UK been the best team remaining? I would say the majority of the time that was the case:
2010 - by the time Kansas choked UK was clearly the team to beat. This season was a 1A and 1B type season. So at one point in the tournament UK was the favorite
2011 - UK was talented, but not a favorite by any means and the committee did them no favors with their path. But by the final four UK was the best team remaining and lost to an inferior Uconn team
2012 - UK was the best team at the start and best at the end. Title.
2013 - NIT
2014 - again another incredible coaching job. Can't hold it against cal, but the pain associated with this team is that in the title they again were the best team left and lost to an inferior Uconn squad. Bitter sweet post-season where the good outweighed the bad but should have ended in a title
2015 - best team at the start. Should have won title
2016 - talented but never emerged as a favorite
2017 - IMO 2nd best team left by elite 8
So in Cals first 6 years 5 times he had the tournament favorite at one point. That's nuts. You replay those outcomes and you will walk away with 2-4 titles. That's where the underachieving loudmouths come from
Given these scenarios should Cal have more titles? Probably
Is that Cals fault? No, March is a crapshoot and his coaching enabled the 2011 and 2014 teams to contend
Has a coach been better in that span? Personally, I think not
Is cal the best option going forward?
Absolutely
Well, compare him to the other greats: K, Roy, Izzo, Pitino, Self, etc. In the last 8 years Uk has outperformed all those programs with Duke being the only debate. Duke won two titles with good teams but certainly not the best teams those seasons. Everyone admits titles are pretty damn hard to win - look how long it took Dean smith just to get 1. So in that case Cal has been phenomenal, maybe even the best as a final four in itself is a major accomplishment
But that doesn't answer the whole question. It's has he underachieved. If you dug up some old threads from the John Wall year you had many fans believing Cal would have 3 titles by now - and that certainly could be the case. When you look at the NBA talent produced even if they are freshman it isn't paralleled. In that case yes, he has won less titles than people thought he would by now- but again titles are hard to win. You can't blame Cal for missing titles in 2011 or 2014 - just getting those teams to the final four is a massive accomplishment. When OSU fans count near misses for titles do they count 2011? No, because Cals cats took down more experienced and better teams that year
Here is why one title is hard to swallow. The only years Cal has had the best team in the country was 2012, 2015, and arguably 2010. But when you look at tournament runs how many times has UK been the best team remaining? I would say the majority of the time that was the case:
2010 - by the time Kansas choked UK was clearly the team to beat. This season was a 1A and 1B type season. So at one point in the tournament UK was the favorite
2011 - UK was talented, but not a favorite by any means and the committee did them no favors with their path. But by the final four UK was the best team remaining and lost to an inferior Uconn team
2012 - UK was the best team at the start and best at the end. Title.
2013 - NIT
2014 - again another incredible coaching job. Can't hold it against cal, but the pain associated with this team is that in the title they again were the best team left and lost to an inferior Uconn squad. Bitter sweet post-season where the good outweighed the bad but should have ended in a title
2015 - best team at the start. Should have won title
2016 - talented but never emerged as a favorite
2017 - IMO 2nd best team left by elite 8
So in Cals first 6 years 5 times he had the tournament favorite at one point. That's nuts. You replay those outcomes and you will walk away with 2-4 titles. That's where the underachieving loudmouths come from
Given these scenarios should Cal have more titles? Probably
Is that Cals fault? No, March is a crapshoot and his coaching enabled the 2011 and 2014 teams to contend
Has a coach been better in that span? Personally, I think not
Is cal the best option going forward?
Absolutely
I was just going by the AP Poll for every week and who stayed at #1. They may have been.
smith was massively influential, though, and he did develop players. and his assistants and former players are everywhere
you mentioned the most overrated coach in history elsewhere in your post
I heard Shannon Sharpe call Cal overrated because he has one title with that roster. Well then his old Quarterback John Elway is overrated because he didn't win a Super Bowl until Terrell Davis saved his ***.
These experts have no clue when they continue to talk negative on Coach Cal. They wasn't here after the Pitino 8 years. We know the 1st year when some that say was the best head coach Tubby Smith won the Championship was Pitino's recruits and team. Then the next 9 years and 2 after that was the worse years that I had seen at UK basketball. We stopped recruiting the 4 and 5 star players and were lucky to get the 3 star players. We were consistently getting seeded at #8 or #9 in the Tournament or the NIT. Then after those 9 years we sat through the longest 2 years in UK Basketball and then all the excitement was back with UK basketball when we hired Coach Cal. His numbers speak how well he has done at a school like Kentucky that expects final fours each year and Championships annually. In just 8 years Coach Cal has 4 Final Fours and could have been 6 with yesterday's close loss and 1st year when we shot 3/35 from 3 point and lost to WVU. Coach Cal has been to 6 Elite 8's and 4 Final Fours in 8 years. That is unbelievable to take 3 or 4 freshman that usually start and each year get to the Elite 8 or Final Fours. I just don't listen to these experts that say Coach Cal has underachieved because I was there during those long 12 years after Pitino left and Kentucky basketball just wasn't the same. The recruiting was terrible and the coaching was terrible and we were nowhere near getting to the Final Four in those 12 years. Now we know when March Madness hits that we will be making a deep run and possible Final Four and National Championship. These experts didn't live through those 12 years of miserable UK Basketball. They have no clue.
I gotta wonder just how relieved Zaytoven was when the filth NC won in the last second. He would have had to keep the hate bottled up for six months.
Well said! I understand everything you are saying! Do not forget WE ARE THE GOLD STANDARD, AND WE ARE COLLAGE BASKETBALL!!!
By 2 different guys. And we only had 1 between 58-96 with Joe B. In 78. Quit acting like we were world beaters. Give me Cal all day.
Pitino coached 89-97
5 Elite 8s
3 Final 4s
1 NC
4 number 1 seeds in tourney
Tubby coached 97-07
3 Elite 8s
2 Final 4
1 NC
2 number 1 seeds
Cal 09-Current
6 Elite 8s
4 Final 4s
1 NC
3 number 1 seeds
Edit: Just noticed another poster had same facts minus seeds in those years. Sorry for the double post.
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You can't say a guy who had NBA level talent and some who were even on the Top 50 NBA players of all time but only won 2 championships is a legend, influential to the game and developed players while in the same breath say Cal can't coach, just rolls the ball out, has the most talent and underachieved because he has 1 championship in less time than Dean had at a power school.
The media wants it both ways. If Cal is underachieving in the 9 years at UK because he has 1 championship then what Dean did in 35 at UNC is a major failure but some regard him as on of the top 2 to 3 coaches of all time. It is just a double standard. Give Cal KAT, Anthony Davis, Demarcus Cousins, John Wall, Brandon Knight and some of his other guys 4 years like Dean had and see how many championships he could have won.
For anyone who seriously entertains Cal to Dean Smith comparisons -
Take Cal's current rosters, give him 3 five stars a year instead of 5, but make them stay all four years. So not only would he have more five stars per roster, they'd also be much older on average.
Cal gets 36 years to coach with that squad at a blue blood. That is to say, 4 1/2 times longer than his current tenure at Kentucky.
Do you really believe Cal would have only 2 championships in that span?
Do you?
No you don't. Not unless you're brain damaged.
Take Cal's current rosters, give him 3 five stars a year instead of 5, but make them stay all four years. So not only would he have more five stars per roster, they'd also be much older on average.
Cal gets 36 years to coach with that squad at a blue blood. That is to say, 4 1/2 times longer than his current tenure at Kentucky.
Do you really believe Cal would have only 2 championships in that span?
Do you?
No you don't. Not unless you're brain damaged.
No, Cal is NOT underachieving. He has done a masterful job with the one and dones. I mean these are kids fresh out of high school and somehow he molds them into a cohesive unit that makes a run about every year. But doubtful he will ever win another NC. 2012 was a fluke in that Jones and Lamb returned and Miller the senior was a force. It's a sad commentary how to some National Championships no longer count. Cal showed how great of a coach he was at UMass and Memphis. He could give us another one or two or more here if he changed his one and done philosophy.
"Tubby Smith won the Championship was Pitino's recruits and team"
Which Pitino couldn't win with in '97, despite having Ron Mercer and Anthony Epps to boot.
"We were consistently getting seeded at #8 or #9 in the Tournament or the NIT"
FALSE
Tubby never took UK to the NIT, made the NCAA every year. Never had a first round loss.
During those 9 years, UK was seeded 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 4th, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 8th, 8th.
Another thing on Pitino. He should have won more than one title at UK. Cal does too but he still has time to win another one.
I think he will win again with one and dones but only time will tell which of us is right.
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