Stephen A. Smith Makes The Case That Cal Is Underachieving

[brianpoe]

Lol, he's not the only one saying it..if you didn't spend your time in an echo chamber around here you'd realize that Cal underachieving yet again is the narrative all over the national media today..it's CBSsports writers, Fox Sports writers, ESPN analysts and about a dozen others..I know it's hard but spend a couple days outside the echo chamber without your blue sunglasses on so you can get an objective perspective on how ppl view this program

I'm not sure if you remember way back in the offseason but the talk all offseason was how great this team was and how we were the favorites to win the title..it's funny how quickly we seem to forget these things after our earlier than expected tournament exits..our fanbase is able to rationalize underachieving like no other

Take your head out of the sand for just one minute and understand that people nationally are starting to see a growing disparity between Cal's talent and the number of titles he has to show for it.

Stop living in the echo chamber. The truth hurts, but that doesn't mean it's not the truth. The disparity has gotten too big to ignore. No one besides Fox should be going pro off of this year's team yet because of the culture we've created we're going to lose our top 8 players.

I think you need to make up your mind about talent disparity before saying we only have one NBA ready player on the team...

Offseason talk means nothing in real life you know this.

Why people do not understand that the Devin Booker who scored 70 last week is NOT the same 18 year old Devin Booker we had... goes for all the pro's.


What Cal does to prepare 18 year olds for March is amazing. This may have been his best coaching job yet.


Cal is not perfect and I would like to have seen him be better down the stretch last night, or in 2010 vs WV and 2015 in the last few minutes.

But the guy went 38-0 and lost the last 3 minutes of ONE game in 2015 and and by a buzzer beater vs a higher seed with cheating refs and people cannot get over it.

Amazing to me how bright the most intelligent fanbase in college basketball truly is...

 

[anon_013cn8yrfncx2]

IT's not up to us, the fans, to prove Cal's critics wrong. It's up to him. He annually tweaks his team about February. I for one would like to see him tweak his recruiting approach. One poster in another thread asked, "what's the solution?" Who knows but I'd start with recruiting a dead-eye two guard and keeping him for 4 years and not recruiting over him. What would this team have been like with a Sindarius Thornwell as our 3rd guard?

Last year, Cal recruited Mulder to be his shooting guard. Then he got Murray to reclassify and Mychal rode the pine. This year he signed Monk, and why wouldn't you, but then fans bitched about Mulder because he couldn't produce in his brief minutes.

Monk would be drafted the same if he played 25 minutes a game and Mulder had gotten 15 every game. Might have made a difference yesterday

 

[BigBlueCatNation]

"I would expect more than one title."

That narrative is only going to get louder and louder as the years go by.

It's hard to argue that narrative.

It's hard to win a title with a lose and you're out system, but it's what we have. We still should have another title. That doesn't mean I don't like Cal because I love him. If anything, it's that the system is rigged to prevent us from winning it.

 

[brianpoe]

Good points and I agree with all of them. But I don't think it's lazy for someone to feel that Cal has underachieved. I understand the argument. Still, I get your point.

Cal has been his own worst enemy. First, the "players-first" approach has hurt him just as much as it has helped him. And Cal himself said this paraphrased quote when he was hired: "Why have I been given this opportunity at UK? .....maybe it's so we can catch UCLA in titles..."

When you get the number one recruiting class every damn year (practically) and you make a habit of being Swaggy Cal every time a mic is put in front of you, you have to back it up. And many people just think he hasn't done that to the degree he needs to. I see their point, although I would argue differently as you have.

Regardless, this is the bottom line for me: If he gets ONE more title, his reputation is sealed. Period. If he doesn't, then there can be a debate and I can understand both sides of that debate.

Cal says they should have won 1 or 2 more. But Nova should have never beaten G'Town in Rupp and Jimmy V should never have been famous vs Houston, the list goes on forever with the NCAA Tournament. March Madness

 

[ZaytovenCat]

You all that keep saying Cal has had the best run over the last 8 years keep missing the point. You act as if all things are equal for every team to start these seasons. Cal has had by far the most talent over those 8 years. Yea they leave after a year but that's his own doing. No other program loses the type of guys year in and year out like we do. I'm not talking top 15-20 picks. I'm talking the guys projected from pick 20 all the way to undrafted. That's on Cal. It's the culture that HE created here.

To an earlier post, Hall only won 1 title but I don't consider that underachieving because his teams weren't loaded with NBA players each year.

If Cal was recruiting like Izzo or Pitino or worse and had this 8 year run then it would be a lot more impressive and much easier to be understanding that we only have 1 title in those years. But as it is, realistically Cal should have at bare minimum 2 titles right now. Actually he should have 3 at minimum but I'm being generous with 2.

2010 - best team in the country. Insane talent
2011 - talented (especially at the top), made a run to a FF where they were the most talented team there.
*2012 - best team, best player ever to come here and a Title.
2013 - train wreck. This isn't on Cal.
2014 - loaded with talent, top 3 talent wise. Makes a run and gets beat in the Title game by another less talented team.
2015 - Maybe the most loaded team in the last 20+ year in the NCAA. Chokes away the game in the FF.
2016 - wasn't a great team. couple guys underachieved but still had more talent that most teams.
2017 - preseason top 3 at worst. Talent heavy with mix of experience. Best backcourt in the country and maybe the best in school history.

Now, they got 1 in 2012. Another should have been in 2015. There's just no reason for coming up short. Were we screwed by some big calls and was Alex being hurt huge? Yes. But we still had a late lead and blew it.

There's 2 that should be in our pocket. Now think about 2010, 2011, 2014 and 2017.

•2010 - that title was ours. Cal knew by halftime we couldn't throw it in the ocean and he didn't make them stop shooting 3's. This was a big missed opportunity.
•2011 - it wasn't the most talented Cal team but it did have some high end players along with experienced players who were skilled. They were the most talented team in that FF. FT's cost them the Final Four game. This becomes a trend in the Cal era. Again, another team that reasonably should have won it once they made it to the FF. They had already beaten all of the best teams by that point.
• 2014 - very young but also maybe the most talented team in the country. Played by far their best ball in the tournament and then crap the bed against an inferior UConn team in the title game. As much as 2010 should have been ours, I'd argue that this is where that third title should have come from after 2012 and 2015. We were right there and let an inferior team with a rookie head coach beat us.
• 2017 - before the season everyone was saying how us and Duke were the most talented teams. Sure UNC was also one of the teams everyone thought could win it but we had that game won. Go up 5 with all the momentum and then let them go on a 10-0 run. It's reminds me a lot of 2015 just without the 3 shot clock violations. Once we got up 5 we took our foot off the gas. To get that 5 point lead we had guys moving without the ball and constant movement. Get up 5 and everyone starts standing around. While we probably should have won, this loss by itself isn't as bad as 2015 or 2014. But it's all of the blown opportunities before this season that makes yesterday so hard.

 

[KYFOSSIL]

It's kind a hard.to disagree with him isn't it?

No it's not. Achievement is a subjective measure. If NCs are the bench mark then every coach not name Wooden has failed to achieve. K comes next at 5 titles in 30 years and even that is 1 every six years and several disappointing years of what should be considered under achieving.

Looking at objective stat such as winning percentage, yearly wins and NCAA performance then no rational person can say he underachieved.

Everyone that knows basketball knows our route through the tourney was horrendous yet even with horrendously bad officiating the first half it took a last second shot to beat us by a team with at least as much talent, more experience and seeded higher to beat us.

On a personal note I have realized I have spent way too much time and emotion on this board and quite frankly don't like who I can become on this board. Too many haters and agenda driven posters and drive by trolls to really have solid sports discussion. My responses as well have become more sarcastic and defensive of Cal and the team than they should be. I wish all of the BBN the very best and thank you all that
love and support our cats. Posting on here just isn't good for me so take Care and Go Big Blue.
Que the Curly Bil Gif:sunglasses:

 

[Myotis]

Why do you play basketball? Why do you score points in the game? To WIN. What is the ultimate prize and the ultimate goal? Championships. That is how you measure true success. What SAS is saying is simply with the talent that is being distributed at UK how come we don't have more titles? Of course it's a valid question to ask. When Cal got hired I knew his OAD system would be his bane. Of course it's super impressive to take Kentucky to Championship game as an 8 seed. He did that with all freshman. But guess what? He didn't win that one. We lost. I am not saying that Cal is not successful at UK, he's miles above Tubby. Cal would have 1 title, check. But SHOULD have at least 2 before he retires. Hopefully he will.

Really? Miles above Tubby? Better, yes, but hardly "miles".

Bottom line after 8 seaons

Hall, 1 NCAA Title, 13-4 record in 5 appearances in the NCAA Tournament
Pitino*, 1 NCAA Title 22-5 record in 6 appearances in the NCAA Tournament
Smith, 1 NCAA Title 21-7 record in 8 appearances the NCAA Tournament
Calipari, 1 NCAA Title, 25-6 record in 7 appearances in the NCAA Tournament

*Pitino only had six years when UK was eligible for post-season play

 

[brianpoe]

IT's not up to us, the fans, to prove Cal's critics wrong. It's up to him. He annually tweaks his team about February. I for one would like to see him tweak to his recruiting approach. One poster in

in another thread asked, "what's the solution?" Who knows but I'd start with recruiting a dead-eye two guard and keeping him for 4 years and not recruiting over him. What would this team have been like with a Sindarius Thornwell as our 3rd guard?

Last year, Cal recruited Mulder to be his shooting guard. Then he got Murray to reclassify and Mychal rode the pine. Fans this year then bitched about Mulder because he couldn't produce in his brief minutes. And so it goes.

Cal recruited these 5 shooters over the last 6 years Lamb, Booker, Kennard, Murray, and Monk - who has signed 5 better than we have or come close to matching these?

 

[ZaytovenCat]

Skip is this you? Man you have some bad takes, if he wins another how do you spin it then? You need to go cheer for whoever hires Tom Crean. you would have a great season then

Can you not read? It clearly says Smith is the one that said this. But I do agree for all the reasons I just listed. If we are sitting on #9 by now then you wouldn't see me complaining like I do. Sure I'd be a little disappointed because of the other missed opportunities but with 2 I could be content.

Any coach can win 1 title. If Cal really is a great coach then he has to get a second. That's no way around that.

 

[brianpoe]

Really? Miles above Tubby? Better, yes, but hardly "miles".

Bottom line after 8 seaons

Hall, 1 NCAA Title, 13-4 record in 5 appearances in the NCAA Tournament
Pitino*, 1 NCAA Title 22-5 record in 6 appearances in the NCAA Tournament
Smith, 1 NCAA Title 21-7 record in 8 appearances the NCAA Tournament
Calipari, 1 NCAA Title, 25-6 record in 7 appearances in the NCAA Tournament

*Pitino only had six years when UK was eligible for post-season play

Appearances? FF's mean nothing again, I guess?

And yes, it is miles and I like Tubby - he coached his butt off in 98 regardless of the haters and "Pitino players" talk. But yes Cal is miles ahead overall, recruiting is part of coaching.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Any coach can win 1 title.

[laughing]

 

[JC CATS]

Can you not read? It clearly says Smith is the one that said this. But I do agree for all the reasons I just listed. If we are sitting on #9 by now then you wouldn't see me complaining like I do. Sure I'd be a little disappointed because of the other missed opportunities but with 2 I could be content.

Any coach can win 1 title. If Cal really is a great coach then he has to get a second. That's no way around that.

If you agree then YOU have an awful take. Any Coach can win 1 title? Really, any coach? How many titles do all the other SEC coaches have combined? Combined?

 

[ZaytovenCat]

[laughing]

It's true. Look at the number of flashes in the pan over the course of history. Hell just recently Kevin Ollie and Jay Wright.

Or one of BBN's favorite punching bags, Tubby.

 

[JC CATS]

It's true. Look at the number of flashes in the pan over the course of history. Hell just recently Kevin Ollie and Jay Wright.

Again I ask, how many titles do all SEC coaches not named John Calapari have combined?

 

[YourPublicEnemy]

You all that keep saying Cal has had the best run over the last 8 years keep missing the point. You act as if all things are equal for every team to start these seasons. Cal has had by far the most talent over those 8 years. Yea they leave after a year but that's his own doing. No other program loses the type of guys year in and year out like we do. I'm not talking top 15-20 picks. I'm talking the guys projected from pick 20 all the way to undrafted. That's on Cal. It's the culture that HE created here.

To an earlier post, Hall only won 1 title but I don't consider that underachieving because his teams weren't loaded with NBA players each year.

If Cal was recruiting like Izzo or Pitino or worse and had this 8 year run then it would be a lot more impressive and much easier to be understanding that we only have 1 title in those years. But as it is, realistically Cal should have at bare minimum 2 titles right now. Actually he should have 3 at minimum but I'm being generous with 2.

2010 - best team in the country. Insane talent
2011 - talented (especially at the top), made a run to a FF where they were the most talented team there.
*2012 - best team, best player ever to come here and a Title.
2013 - train wreck. This isn't on Cal.
2014 - loaded with talent, top 3 talent wise. Makes a run and gets beat in the Title game by another less talented team.
2015 - Maybe the most loaded team in the last 20+ year in the NCAA. Chokes away the game in the FF.
2016 - wasn't a great team. couple guys underachieved but still had more talent that most teams.
2017 - preseason top 3 at worst. Talent heavy with mix of experience. Best backcourt in the country and maybe the best in school history.

Now, they got 1 in 2012. Another should have been in 2015. There's just no reason for coming up short. Were we screwed by some big calls and was Alex being hurt huge? Yes. But we still had a late lead and blew it.

There's 2 that should be in our pocket. Now think about 2010, 2011, 2014 and 2017.

•2010 - that title was ours. Cal knew by halftime we couldn't throw it in the ocean and he didn't make them stop shooting 3's. This was a big missed opportunity.
•2011 - it wasn't the most talented Cal team but it did have some high end players along with experienced players who were skilled. They were the most talented team in that FF. FT's cost them the Final Four game. This becomes a trend in the Cal era. Again, another team that reasonably should have won it once they made it to the FF. They had already beaten all of the best teams by that point.
• 2014 - very young but also maybe the most talented team in the country. Played by far their best ball in the tournament and then crap the bed against an inferior UConn team in the title game. As much as 2010 should have been ours, I'd argue that this is where that third title should have come from after 2012 and 2015. We were right there and let an inferior team with a rookie head coach beat us.
• 2017 - before the season everyone was saying how us and Duke were the most talented teams. Sure UNC was also one of the teams everyone thought could win it but we had that game won. Go up 5 with all the momentum and then let them go on a 10-0 run. It's reminds me a lot of 2015 just without the 3 shot clock violations. Once we got up 5 we took our foot off the gas. To get that 5 point lead we had guys moving without the ball and constant movement. Get up 5 and everyone starts standing around. While we probably should have won, this loss by itself isn't as bad as 2015 or 2014. But it's all of the blown opportunities before this season that makes yesterday so hard.

In 2010, we weren't even the overall one seed. Granted, we were really, really good. We just didn't have shooters and that ended up being our downfall. We had a loaded starting five but had no depth. We relied on all freshmen and a junior Patterson and a still growing sophomore Miller.

2011- We were a four seed who lost to a team that beat us easily earlier in the season and then got beat by one point in the semis despite not being able to shoot and a few horrendous calls occurring.

2014- Again, we were all freshmen and two sophs, one which got injured in the second round. We finally got close to getting to taking the lead and then they called a flop on a basket that would have done it. Killed us.

2015- Horrible officiating but still never should have lost. Obviously we will deal with this one for the rest of our lives.

2016- We were really poor. We had a great point guard and a streaky scorer. We had nothing down low at all. We lost like seven guys to the pros from the previous year.

2017- We were a two seed who lost to one of the top two favorites. We had a great backcourt but we were no more loaded than what UNC was.

In 2010, we had our weaknesses and maybe we should have won it all here. In 2011, we were a four seed and came up one point short in the final four. No sweat. But all in all, we probably should have three national titles under Calipari and we only have one. We've never been out of the game with a minute to go in any of our final four losses.

 

[YourPublicEnemy]

Really? Miles above Tubby? Better, yes, but hardly "miles".

Bottom line after 8 seaons

Hall, 1 NCAA Title, 13-4 record in 5 appearances in the NCAA Tournament
Pitino*, 1 NCAA Title 22-5 record in 6 appearances in the NCAA Tournament
Smith, 1 NCAA Title 21-7 record in 8 appearances the NCAA Tournament
Calipari, 1 NCAA Title, 25-6 record in 7 appearances in the NCAA Tournament

*Pitino only had six years when UK was eligible for post-season play

Why are national titles the only measuring stick? Are you saying it's equal of getting to the Final Four and another coach getting beat in the second round?

Is Izzo and Kevin Ollie on the same level? No. Getting to the final weekend means something.

 

[JC CATS]

You all that keep saying Cal has had the best run over the last 8 years keep missing the point. You act as if all things are equal for every team to start these seasons. Cal has had by far the most talent over those 8 years. Yea they leave after a year but that's his own doing. No other program loses the type of guys year in and year out like we do. I'm not talking top 15-20 picks. I'm talking the guys projected from pick 20 all the way to undrafted. That's on Cal. It's the culture that HE created here.

To an earlier post, Hall only won 1 title but I don't consider that underachieving because his teams weren't loaded with NBA players each year.

If Cal was recruiting like Izzo or Pitino or worse and had this 8 year run then it would be a lot more impressive and much easier to be understanding that we only have 1 title in those years. But as it is, realistically Cal should have at bare minimum 2 titles right now. Actually he should have 3 at minimum but I'm being generous with 2.

2010 - best team in the country. Insane talent
2011 - talented (especially at the top), made a run to a FF where they were the most talented team there.
*2012 - best team, best player ever to come here and a Title.
2013 - train wreck. This isn't on Cal.
2014 - loaded with talent, top 3 talent wise. Makes a run and gets beat in the Title game by another less talented team.
2015 - Maybe the most loaded team in the last 20+ year in the NCAA. Chokes away the game in the FF.
2016 - wasn't a great team. couple guys underachieved but still had more talent that most teams.
2017 - preseason top 3 at worst. Talent heavy with mix of experience. Best backcourt in the country and maybe the best in school history.

Now, they got 1 in 2012. Another should have been in 2015. There's just no reason for coming up short. Were we screwed by some big calls and was Alex being hurt huge? Yes. But we still had a late lead and blew it.

There's 2 that should be in our pocket. Now think about 2010, 2011, 2014 and 2017.

•2010 - that title was ours. Cal knew by halftime we couldn't throw it in the ocean and he didn't make them stop shooting 3's. This was a big missed opportunity.
•2011 - it wasn't the most talented Cal team but it did have some high end players along with experienced players who were skilled. They were the most talented team in that FF. FT's cost them the Final Four game. This becomes a trend in the Cal era. Again, another team that reasonably should have won it once they made it to the FF. They had already beaten all of the best teams by that point.
• 2014 - very young but also maybe the most talented team in the country. Played by far their best ball in the tournament and then crap the bed against an inferior UConn team in the title game. As much as 2010 should have been ours, I'd argue that this is where that third title should have come from after 2012 and 2015. We were right there and let an inferior team with a rookie head coach beat us.
• 2017 - before the season everyone was saying how us and Duke were the most talented teams. Sure UNC was also one of the teams everyone thought could win it but we had that game won. Go up 5 with all the momentum and then let them go on a 10-0 run. It's reminds me a lot of 2015 just without the 3 shot clock violations. Once we got up 5 we took our foot off the gas. To get that 5 point lead we had guys moving without the ball and constant movement. Get up 5 and everyone starts standing around. While we probably should have won, this loss by itself isn't as bad as 2015 or 2014. But it's all of the blown opportunities before this season that makes yesterday so hard.

Let's not forget we would have had to beat 3 30 win teams to make FF

 

[jrpross_rivals]

I took OP off ignore a while ago, thinking, "ah he ain't that bad."

Welp, back he goes.

 

[jrpross_rivals]

We do live in a bizarre world of misplaced priorities.

This season alone, a girl was raped in a Kansas athletic dorm. A Kansas player, perhaps the most acclaimed freshman in CBB is involved in an incident where a felony has been reduced to a misdemeanor while others have been implicated in drugs and sexual assault.

As we sit here today, Louisville is enjoying a national title that was earned in part using players that were enticed with sexual favors from prostitutes. One of the University's arguments is that the the strippers and prostitutes weren't very expensive so that their employment didn't constitute a major advantage. For the record, the NCAA's response to the UL defense was released just last week.

North Carolina is enjoying multiple final four appearances and has a 2005 NCAA Championship that was made possible by using players that we now know didn't attend class. Rashad McCants, second leading scorer on the team, admits he never went to class that year. Although there is no question that UNC enticed players using a shadow curriculum of phony classes that NEVER MET, to this date, not even a smack of repercussion.

Steven A Smith: My big story is Cal is underachieving with the talent at Kentucky.

*Like
*Like
*Like
*Like.....

 

[loublue22_rivals308424]

Lol, he's not the only one saying it..if you didn't spend your time in an echo chamber around here you'd realize that Cal underachieving yet again is the narrative all over the national media today..it's CBSsports writers, Fox Sports writers, ESPN analysts and about a dozen others..I know it's hard but spend a couple days outside the echo chamber without your blue sunglasses on so you can get an objective perspective on how ppl view this program

I'm not sure if you remember way back in the offseason but the talk all offseason was how great this team was and how we were the favorites to win the title..it's funny how quickly we seem to forget these things after our earlier than expected tournament exits..our fanbase is able to rationalize underachieving like no other

Take your head out of the sand for just one minute and understand that people nationally are starting to see a growing disparity between Cal's talent and the number of titles he has to show for it.

Stop living in the echo chamber. The truth hurts, but that doesn't mean it's not the truth. The disparity has gotten too big to ignore. No one besides Fox should be going pro off of this year's team yet because of the culture we've created we're going to lose our top 8 players.

Cal has literally been the most successfull coach in college basketball since he took over here, what more do you want?

******* moron

 

[GonzoCat90]

It's true. Look at the number of flashes in the pan over the course of history. Hell just recently Kevin Ollie and Jay Wright.

Or one of BBN's favorite punching bags, Tubby.

So in one breath, the tournament is random and anyone can happen to win it all but also Cal is a failure for not winning it in years that he has what you retroactively have talked yourself into believing is a team that *should* have won it?

I just want to make sure I'm following.

 

[Myotis]

Appearances? FF's mean nothing again, I guess?

And yes, it is miles and I like Tubby - he coached his butt off in 98 regardless of the haters and "Pitino players" talk. But yes Cal is miles ahead overall, recruiting is part of coaching.

Final Fours do mean something, but E8's aren't exactly nothing, which is how much respect Tubby gets for his 3.

And you're right about Tubby's coaching in '98. Hell, he won the NCAA with a team Pitino didn't win with the year before, except that Pitino had Ron Mercer and Anthony Epps instead of Jeff Sheppard, Saul Smith and Michael Bradley....

 

[deplion_rivals116063]

Cal did exactly what he needed to do this year.

He recruited a team that was very capable of winning it all, and he had them in position to do so.

UNC, with the help of their black striped friends, was just a little better than us yesterday. It happens.

Because Cal is such a great recruiter and coach, it is happening late in the tournament most every year. This is not a bad thing.

While all of us believe we should have more than one title by now, only a true basketball illiterate would label that "underachieving".

Losing yesterday SUCKED, but Cal has us in the midst of a historically great run. To pretend otherwise is delusional.

 

[brianpoe]

Final Fours do mean something, but E8's aren't exactly nothing, which is how much respect Tubby gets for his 3.

And you're right about Tubby's coaching in '98. Hell, he won the NCAA with a team Pitino didn't win with the year before, except that Pitino had Ron Mercer and Anthony Epps instead of Jeff Sheppard, Saul Smith and Michael Bradley....

Cal's FF's are the driving force (aside from recruiting) that places him miles ahead of Tubby.

Cal 6 to Tubby's 1, and Cal did it at 2 schools not named UK...

 

[Myotis]

Why are national titles the only measuring stick? Are you saying it's equal of getting to the Final Four and another coach getting beat in the second round?

Is Izzo and Kevin Ollie on the same level? No. Getting to the final weekend means something.

Well, keep in mind I was responding to Farsight's post.

Why do you play basketball? Why do you score points in the game? To WIN. What is the ultimate prize and the ultimate goal? Championships. That is how you measure true success.

By that criteria, there's not much difference between Hall, Pitino, Smith, and Calipari. Frankly, for me, Calipari and Pitino are a level above Smith and Hall, but none were slouches.

 

[Kampus Korner_rivals164031]

"I would expect more than one title."

That narrative is only going to get louder and louder as the years go by.

Stephen A Smith is like Levar Ball. They both make outrageous statements to attract attention to themselves. Their ego must be fed 24 hours a day or their miserable. Any program would cherish what Cal has accomplished. Most UK fans do appreciate what he has done. To those that don't I feel sorry for them.

 

[STL_Cat]

8 years ago: "You can't win with one and dones!"

8 years later: "Look at all those one and dones. You should be winning more!"

 

[JC CATS]

Cal did exactly what he needed to do this year.

He recruited a team that was very capable of winning it all, and he had them in position to do so.

UNC, with the help of their black striped friends, was just a little better than us yesterday. It happens.

Because Cal is such a great recruiter and coach, it is happening late in the tournament most every year. This is not a bad thing.

While all of us believe we should have more than one title by now, only a true basketball illiterate would label that "underachieving".

Losing yesterday SUCKED, but Cal has us in the midst of a historically great run. To pretend otherwise is delusional.

Yeah, if underacheiving is going to 6 EE in 8 years, bring it on

 

[FLawLesS_NoLe]

Preseason, Duke had 3 freshmen projected higher in the draft than any of ours, plus all that returning talent.

KU had Josh Jackson plus the player of the year at pg.

UCLA had Ball and Leaf plus talented upperclassmen.

Don't even get me started on Washington and NC St.

Cal doesn't necessarily get the best of the freshmen available. He just tends to get the most out of his freshmen.

If anything, Cal is penalized for having too much success. He is held to a different standard that he has essentially created for himself.

You won't see Cuonzo Martin getting much grief next year, when they miss the tournament or lose in the first round.

Yea but Cal brought in the best recruiting class... again

 

[Myotis]

Cal's FF's are the driving force (aside from recruiting) that places him miles ahead of Tubby.

Cal 6 to Tubby's 1, and Cal did it at 2 schools not named UK...

I've never heard Cal say Final Four's are the measure of success. Frankly, what I heard from Cal is that it's Championships and First Round Draft Picks, and not necessarily in that order.

FF's are good, but not THAT far ahead of an E8. And Smith was one uncalled foul (on Patrick Sparks' trey) away from a FF in '05.

Not arguing that Smith is the equal of Cal, only that Smith ain't chopped liver. It just kills me that UK fans devour their own with such gusto. If the Internet had existed in Joe B's era, I shudder to think what would have been posted about him. I suppose I should have patience, it took more than 20 years for Hall to get the respect he deserved.

 

[JC CATS]

How can they have it both ways? Not a talking head gave UK a snowballs chance in hell to win that game. Almost did with our starting lineup out the first half...

 

[Ben101er]

Well, first of all, I take the exact opposite stance of anything that idiot Smith says. However, as long as the NCAA has a bias against Cal, and UK, it is twice as hard for us to win a NC as any other team. Just like this year, they committee set it up to where Duke was a sure thing to get to the final four. It just so happened that they laid an egg against USC, but look how easy their path was. UK has to fight their way through the toughest bracket, every year, and then if we make it, they turn Higgins sorry butt on us, and make sure we don't win, unless we are 15-20 points better, and that is tough to do, when you get to the elite 8 and on. Should we have won more NC's, sure, but we could have had 3 more besides 2012, had the NCAA just been fair. We all know they are not, and that is certainly not Cal's fault. Shut up Steven A. Smith, and I hope you are one of the ones cut by ESPN.

 

[kyups01]

​

No it's not. Achievement is a subjective measure. If NCs are the bench mark then every coach not name Wooden has failed to achieve. K comes next at 5 titles in 30 years and even that is 1 every six years and several disappointing years of what should be considered under achieving.

Looking at objective stat such as winning percentage, yearly wins and NCAA performance then no rational person can say he underachieved.

Everyone that knows basketball knows our route through the tourney was horrendous yet even with horrendously bad officiating the first half it took a last second shot to beat us by a team with at least as much talent, more experience and seeded higher to beat us.

On a personal note I have realized I have spent way too much time and emotion on this board and quite frankly don't like who I can become on this board. Too many haters and agenda driven posters and drive by trolls to really have solid sports discussion. My responses as well have become more sarcastic and defensive of Cal and the team than they should be. I wish all of the BBN the very best and thank you all that
love and support our cats. Posting on here just isn't good for me so take Care and Go Big Blue.
Que the Curly Bil Gif:sunglasses:

Yeah, and it would be great if Calipari would actually have the balls to come out and say it! It was the worst draw ever....even behind our past draws under Cal....then the officiating it was obvious! I was hoping he would go ape ****...he said what we all thought in his own way but I wish he'd have been more clear about it.

 

[ImUTGagain]

Lol, he's not the only one saying it..if you didn't spend your time in an echo chamber around here you'd realize that Cal underachieving yet again is the narrative all over the national media today..it's CBSsports writers, Fox Sports writers, ESPN analysts and about a dozen others..I know it's hard but spend a couple days outside the echo chamber without your blue sunglasses on so you can get an objective perspective on how ppl view this program

I'm not sure if you remember way back in the offseason but the talk all offseason was how great this team was and how we were the favorites to win the title..it's funny how quickly we seem to forget these things after our earlier than expected tournament exits..our fanbase is able to rationalize underachieving like no other

Take your head out of the sand for just one minute and understand that people nationally are starting to see a growing disparity between Cal's talent and the number of titles he has to show for it.

Stop living in the echo chamber. The truth hurts, but that doesn't mean it's not the truth. The disparity has gotten too big to ignore. No one besides Fox should be going pro off of this year's team yet because of the culture we've created we're going to lose our top 8 players.

One of the worst posts written in the last couple of days. And that's really really saying something. And of course Zay liked it

 

[ImUTGagain]

Underachieving? I'm not sure. Go back and forth on it. Chances were there for 2-3 more and they were missed for whatever reason. Is that underachieving?

However, in 2009 if I would have told you Cal would have the #1/2 recruiting class every year for 8 seasons and a 1/2 seed 5 times I think most would have expected more than one title.

In 2009 you would have thought that? You are slipping

 

[cal=8]

"I would expect more than one title."

That narrative is only going to get louder and louder as the years go by.

It may get louder by ESPN analysts that get paid a lot of money to be wrong. I'd argue that Stephen A Smith is underachieving as an analyst. Him and the rest of ESPN don't know anymore about Basketball than your average fan.

 

[armchairpg]

If he's underachieving who's overachieving and how far do you have to move the goalposts to come to that conclusion?

That is a great question. Who is meeting expectations? Who is exceeding?

Best question is where do people get their expectations from? Mainly it seems to be from a first grade level correlation between projected talent vs titles? That correlation ignores too many variables to list, besides coaching.

 

[ColonelCat_rivals376764]

"I would expect more than one title."

That narrative is only going to get louder and louder as the years go by.

And how many does RP have in more years at UL? same amount longer time

Thumbs down-Steven A. Smith

 

[barryn2000]

8 years ago: "You can't win with one and dones!"

8 years later: "Look at all those one and dones. You should be winning more!"

Even better....
Every year, before & during tourney..."UK gets screwed every year with bad seed/bracket, bad ref's/calls"
Every year after we lose in tourney..."Cal's OAD system can't win NC"

Yet....somehow, by magic or science us poor idiots don't understand....recruiting 3 & 4 stars will somehow change bad seed/brackets and bad calls.

My theory is that the butthurt is so strong for some they lash out at any and everything. The sane have to endure this until fall when the same people get a woody over our recruiting class and shift back to 40-0 homers.

lather...rinse...repeat

 

[Blue_2_the_bone_rivals]

You all that keep saying Cal has had the best run over the last 8 years keep missing the point. You act as if all things are equal for every team to start these seasons. Cal has had by far the most talent over those 8 years. Yea they leave after a year but that's his own doing. No other program loses the type of guys year in and year out like we do. I'm not talking top 15-20 picks. I'm talking the guys projected from pick 20 all the way to undrafted. That's on Cal. It's the culture that HE created here.

To an earlier post, Hall only won 1 title but I don't consider that underachieving because his teams weren't loaded with NBA players each year.

If Cal was recruiting like Izzo or Pitino or worse and had this 8 year run then it would be a lot more impressive and much easier to be understanding that we only have 1 title in those years. But as it is, realistically Cal should have at bare minimum 2 titles right now. Actually he should have 3 at minimum but I'm being generous with 2.

2010 - best team in the country. Insane talent
2011 - talented (especially at the top), made a run to a FF where they were the most talented team there.
*2012 - best team, best player ever to come here and a Title.
2013 - train wreck. This isn't on Cal.
2014 - loaded with talent, top 3 talent wise. Makes a run and gets beat in the Title game by another less talented team.
2015 - Maybe the most loaded team in the last 20+ year in the NCAA. Chokes away the game in the FF.
2016 - wasn't a great team. couple guys underachieved but still had more talent that most teams.
2017 - preseason top 3 at worst. Talent heavy with mix of experience. Best backcourt in the country and maybe the best in school history.

Now, they got 1 in 2012. Another should have been in 2015. There's just no reason for coming up short. Were we screwed by some big calls and was Alex being hurt huge? Yes. But we still had a late lead and blew it.

There's 2 that should be in our pocket. Now think about 2010, 2011, 2014 and 2017.

•2010 - that title was ours. Cal knew by halftime we couldn't throw it in the ocean and he didn't make them stop shooting 3's. This was a big missed opportunity.
•2011 - it wasn't the most talented Cal team but it did have some high end players along with experienced players who were skilled. They were the most talented team in that FF. FT's cost them the Final Four game. This becomes a trend in the Cal era. Again, another team that reasonably should have won it once they made it to the FF. They had already beaten all of the best teams by that point.
• 2014 - very young but also maybe the most talented team in the country. Played by far their best ball in the tournament and then crap the bed against an inferior UConn team in the title game. As much as 2010 should have been ours, I'd argue that this is where that third title should have come from after 2012 and 2015. We were right there and let an inferior team with a rookie head coach beat us.
• 2017 - before the season everyone was saying how us and Duke were the most talented teams. Sure UNC was also one of the teams everyone thought could win it but we had that game won. Go up 5 with all the momentum and then let them go on a 10-0 run. It's reminds me a lot of 2015 just without the 3 shot clock violations. Once we got up 5 we took our foot off the gas. To get that 5 point lead we had guys moving without the ball and constant movement. Get up 5 and everyone starts standing around. While we probably should have won, this loss by itself isn't as bad as 2015 or 2014. But it's all of the blown opportunities before this season that makes yesterday so hard.

You're assuming the most talented team wins. Look at since Cal had been here.

2016 - Nova - No Kansas, Mich St, and Oklahoma were tops majority of the year.

2015- Duke - No We were atop the Polls all year til the Wisconsin upset. We should have won. Only Year we were head and shoulders above everyone.

2014 - Uconn - No Arizona, Michigan state and a Florida were tops of the Polls all season after our 2 weeks to start the season.

2013 - UL - No Indiana, Duke, & Gonzaga were all on top of AP. Louisville hit #2 at the Final AP Poll. Hadn't been there since week 3.

2012 - UK - Yes Were tops on AP poll most of year followed by Syracuse and UNC

2011 - Uconn - No Duke spends majority of time tops in AP Poll. OH St the other.

2010 - Duke - No Kansas spends majority of year on top of the polls. Texas was next. We had one week with Wall's group.

There are some common patterns though. Winner is usually in the top 10 most of the year. The winner usually doesn't start or finish regular season as #1. A lot of years the #1 team is out in the Sweet 16 or Elite 8. The best programs & coaches are the ones constantly threatening to make the Elite 8 & Final 4 every year. This post assumes you can look at this from a rational stance and not a fan based point of view. It's easy to see the best team doesn't always win. In fact, rarely do they in a single elimination tourney. Matchups & the road to the Final 4 are everything. But I'm just guessing your bias, as well as some others here, only look at how good Cal's players are 2-4 years removed from UK and not the actual year they were here as an 18 year old.