Should we ban the internal combustion engine?

[Mntneer]

It will take awhile but EVs are coming IMO. The EV stuff you're seeing now isn't going to go away, rather it's going to keep coming. The only question is at what rate. To quote Henry Rollins, "Everything is coming, all you have to do is wait."

Range anxiety is a thing but good new EVs are now over 300 miles on a charge and even lesser ones are around 150-200 miles. For most people that's good 90% of the time. And it's only going to get better. To quote The Beatles, "It's getting better all the time." I'm quoting people left and right over here.

I read that Tesla is coming out with an electric pick up truck this year or next. It will be interesting to see how that goes over.

I would have considered a Tesla, until I started reading some of the horror stories with quality and the costs to repair.

I give Musk all the credit in the world, he's trying to improve tech like solar and battery efficiency, but to suggest we could replace all ICE's in the next 10 years is absurd IMTO.

 

[dave]

It will take awhile but EVs are coming IMO. The EV stuff you're seeing now isn't going to go away, rather it's going to keep coming. The only question is at what rate. To quote Henry Rollins, "Everything is coming, all you have to do is wait."

Range anxiety is a thing but good new EVs are now over 300 miles on a charge and even lesser ones are around 150-200 miles. For most people that's good 90% of the time. And it's only going to get better. To quote The Beatles, "It's getting better all the time." I'm quoting people left and right over here.

I read that Tesla is coming out with an electric pick up truck this year or next. It will be interesting to see how that goes over.

There are other issues with EVs that are bigger than range but nothing that cant be solved. EVs will solve an air pollution problem and create a different polution problem.

 

[dave]

I would have considered a Tesla, until I started reading some of the horror stories with quality and the costs to repair.

I give Musk all the credit in the world, he's trying to improve tech like solar and battery efficiency, but to suggest we could replace all ICE's in the next 10 years is absurd IMTO.

For instance....heavy machinery.

 

[op2]

I would have considered a Tesla, until I started reading some of the horror stories with quality and the costs to repair.

I give Musk all the credit in the world, he's trying to improve tech like solar and battery efficiency, but to suggest we could replace all ICE's in the next 10 years is absurd IMTO.

I agree, no way they'll replace ICEs in 10 years. But a lot of car companies are working on their version of it so Musk's goal of making EVs mainstream, although so many other companies doing it might end up putting his company out of business.

 

[atlkvb]

Proponents of the "green initiative's" bold plan keep forgetting one rather critical component in their call for elimination of not just the IC engine, but fossil fuels. I opened the thread with the question and no one offered an answer that's legitimate.

What's the replacement? (fossil fuels) particularly for generating the power needed to recharge the EV's battery? With that problem virtually unsolved, EV's will remain only a novelty, not a replacement for gasoline powered vehicles. Fossil fuels will remain our primary energy source for electricity generation four scores more years, not decades even if battery technology improves driving range and re-charge times.

 

[mule_eer]

Proponents of the "green initiative's" bold plan keep forgetting one rather critical component in their call for elimination of not just the IC engine, but fossil fuels. I opened the thread with the question and no one offered an answer that's legitimate.

What's the replacement? (fossil fuels) particularly for generating the power needed to recharge the EV's battery? With that problem virtually unsolved, EV's will remain only a novelty, not a replacement for gasoline powered vehicles. Fossil fuels will remain our primary energy source for electricity generation four scores more years, not decades even if battery technology improves driving range and re-charge times.

I thought I should share this link regarding your claims about costs. The cost per kWh as dropped significantly and is continuing to drop at the technology improves.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/domini...ost-effective-fossil-fuels-2020/#2c1e09194ff2

 

[atlkvb]

I thought I should share this link regarding your claims about costs. The cost per kWh as dropped significantly and is continuing to drop at the technology improves.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/domini...ost-effective-fossil-fuels-2020/#2c1e09194ff2

That's certainly promising...no doubt. However the amounts of battery reserves needed to power trucks, trains, boats, planes, or even heavy machinery equipment aren't even approaching what can be generated with legacy fuels. As I said, we'd better be ready to offer a substitute for fossil fuels if we plan on banning them. Unless we can come up with a cost effective alternative for them in all of those other applications, we'd better plan on keeping them around for a while longer. There isn't a battery out there strong enough or lasts long enough to fly a transcontinental jetliner.

 

[mule_eer]

What are they generating the electricity with Mule my friend? What's the power source? If it isn't a fossil fuel, then you have a point. If it is, moot point on costs per kWh.

So you didn't look at the article. Cool.

The cost of power generation with wind (onshore specifically) and solar has dropped significantly over the last decade. The onshore wind generation is running at $0.06/ kWh, solar around $0.10/kWh. Fossil fuel power generation falls somewhere in the range of $0.05 to $0.17 per kWh. They are predicting that wind and solar could drop to as low as $0.03 per kWh over the next couple of years. So, while it is merely competitive in price for power generation today, it is projected to be cheaper in the near future.

 

[atlkvb]

So you didn't look at the article. Cool.

The cost of power generation with wind (onshore specifically) and solar has dropped significantly over the last decade. The onshore wind generation is running at $0.06/ kWh, solar around $0.10/kWh. Fossil fuel power generation falls somewhere in the range of $0.05 to $0.17 per kWh. They are predicting that wind and solar could drop to as low as $0.03 per kWh over the next couple of years. So, while it is merely competitive in price for power generation today, it is projected to be cheaper in the near future.

sorry...I posted without reading it first. After I read it, I took down the post you responded to and corrected my initial reaction to the idea we are generating enough power with renewables to eliminate fossil fuels (which we cannot yet do)

My bad.

 

[mule_eer]

That's certainly promising...no doubt. However the amounts of battery reserves needed to power trucks, trains, boats, planes, or even heavy machinery equipment aren't even approaching what can be generated with legacy fuels. As I said, we'd better be ready to offer a substitute for fossil fuels if we plan on banning them. Unless we can come up with a cost effective alternative for them in all of those other applications, we'd better plan on keeping them around for a while longer. There isn't a battery out there strong enough or lasts long enough to fly a transcontinental jetliner.

I'm not arguing about the IC engine in this right now. I was simply pointing out the reports on cost of power generation by different means to charge EV batteries. I think the IC is around for a while regardless. If every auto maker in the world stopped making IC engines today (not saying they should), we'd be more than a decade out from people burning fossil fuels to get from point A to point B. I say that as the owner of a truck that I've had for nearly 23 years, and I'm also basing that on the average lifetime of new vehicles on the road today.

 

[atlkvb]

I'm not arguing about the IC engine in this right now. I was simply pointing out the reports on cost of power generation by different means to charge EV batteries. I think the IC is around for a while regardless. If every auto maker in the world stopped making IC engines today (not saying they should), we'd be more than a decade out from people burning fossil fuels to get from point A to point B. I say that as the owner of a truck that I've had for nearly 23 years, and I'm also basing that on the average lifetime of new vehicles on the road today.

I think the technology in alternative power generation is improving. Not arguable. Battery technology is also improving. Again, not arguable. What is also not arguable is we are far from eliminating or banning fossil fuels. The existing technology is no where close to being able to fill all of our energy needs so this sort of talk (banning fossil fuel use) is foolish or sophistry IMO.

 

[JMichael]

I have had my EV in the shop. Zero problems. I have had Tesla send someone to WV no charge. Service is great.

 

[atlkvb]

I have had my EV in the shop. Zero problems. I have had Tesla send someone to WV no charge. Service is great.

What was your EV in the shop for? My experience with EV owners in general and Tesla owners in particular is the nightmare service scheduling and parts availability if/when something goes wrong. Horror stories!

 

[dave]

I have had my EV in the shop. Zero problems. I have had Tesla send someone to WV no charge. Service is great.

You should get out more.

 

[JMichael]

You should get out more.

I probably should but as it relates to my telsa i have had it all over the state and have driven as far as Indianapolis and Charlotte. Service is seriously not a problem. They do a better job then the Cadillac shop that is a few blocks from my office. The one problem is damage to the body. It does take longer to get part replacements. So if you are in an accident it takes longer than normal to get the car fixed. However any service such as senors etc. are fixed quickly.

 

[dave]

I probably should but as it relates to my telsa i have had it all over the state and have driven as far as Indianapolis and Charlotte. Service is seriously not a problem. They do a better job then the Cadillac shop that is a few blocks from my office. The one problem is damage to the body. It does take longer to get part replacements. So if you are in an accident it takes longer than normal to get the car fixed. However any service such as senors etc. are fixed quickly.

Well. Glad it worked out for you. That must mean everyone else had the same experience.

 

[Shirley Knott]

This is the reason I’d like to see the government more involved though.....tax breaks, seed money, not controlling but encouraging the market forces

Not likely to see any tax breaks with any of the Green's seeking the POTUS name...

 

[atlkvb]

Well. Glad it worked out for you. That must mean everyone else had the same experience.

I'm in the car business. I hear it all. THE WORST service complaints are for parts to replace electrical malfunctions on Teslas. Hands down the biggest turnoff among owners of that vehicle...also large distances some have to travel to find a qualified repair facility! You can't pull into your average Joe Mechanic's corner shop and find many folks qualified to work on them much less requisition the parts.

 

[dave]

I'm in the car business. I hear it all. THE WORST service complaints are for parts to replace electrical malfunctions on Teslas. Hands down the biggest turnoff among owners of that vehicle...also large distances some have to travel to find a qualified repair facility! You can't pull into your average Joe Mechanic's corner shop and find many folks qualified to work on them much less requisition the parts.

You wont be able to explain this to Jmichelle.

 

[atlkvb]

I probably should but as it relates to my telsa i have had it all over the state and have driven as far as Indianapolis and Charlotte. Service is seriously not a problem. They do a better job then the Cadillac shop that is a few blocks from my office. The one problem is damage to the body. It does take longer to get part replacements. So if you are in an accident it takes longer than normal to get the car fixed. However any service such as senors etc. are fixed quickly.

You're talking to a small audience my friend. If anything has prevented Tesla's widespread popularity it's the horror stories about their service intervals and parts availability just as I said. Scheduling for service can often take weeks...waiting for parts can often take months if ever! They have no viable third party vendors, or sustainable network distribution centers for spare parts. So if you need something right away, forget it! Your parts have to wait in line for what they're assembling at the factory, and they can't even keep those folks supplied adequately!

 

[WVU82_rivals]

 

[WVU82_rivals]

 

[WVU82_rivals]

CO2 has nothing to do with warming you moron.

Sunspots. 15 million degrees. Big bright ball in the sky.

 

[Keyser76]

Lol, I love reading what all went on on here over the weekend.

 

[op2]

You're talking to a small audience my friend. If anything has prevented Tesla's widespread popularity it's the horror stories about their service intervals and parts availability just as I said. Scheduling for service can often take weeks...waiting for parts can often take months if ever! They have no viable third party vendors, or sustainable network distribution centers for spare parts. So if you need something right away, forget it! Your parts have to wait in line for what they're assembling at the factory, and they can't even keep those folks supplied adequately!

Aren't you in the car business? Maybe people in your business dislike Tesla because they are competitors. Wasn't there a thing where some states outlawed selling cars unless it was through a dealership? Tesla wants to sell cars directly to people and those against them say no, you've gotta have a middle man. It sounds like they're needlessly raising the cost of a car.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/14/tesla-pushing-right-to-sell-cars-directly-states/

 

[atlkvb]

Aren't you in the car business? Maybe people in your business dislike Tesla because they are competitors. Wasn't there a thing where some states outlawed selling cars unless it was through a dealership? Tesla wants to sell cars directly to people and those against them say no, you've gotta have a middle man. It sounds like they're needlessly raising the cost of a car.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/14/tesla-pushing-right-to-sell-cars-directly-states/

Tesla's parts supplies and distribution network problems are of their own creation not mine OP2. Tesla is a fine car and as technologically advanced as anything on the road but if you can't service them you're not going to find much market penetration for them.

 

[op2]

Tesla's parts supplies and distribution network problems are of their own creation not mine OP2. Tesla is a fine car and as technologically advanced as anything on the road but if you can't service them you're not going to find much market penetration for them.

Of course you need to service a car but as I understand it one advantage of EVs is that there are (many) fewer parts. No oil changes, no transmission, etc. I would think that when they reach larger numbers and some economies of scale kick in it would be easier to deal with them than ICE cars.

 

[atlkvb]

Of course you need to service a car but as I understand it one advantage of EVs is that there are (many) fewer parts. No oil changes, no transmission, etc. I would think that when they reach larger numbers and some economies of scale kick in it would be easier to deal with them than ICE cars.

Well I agree with you that certainly is the Hope and of course that is how they're being sold but what I'm talking about is the actual practical difficulty of their limited parts distribution Network and almost impossible wait times for scheduled service maintenance. There's also the problem that most mechanics are not trained to work on them so you're limited to their repair facilities when you need service and often times they have wait lines that are unbearable. Just passing along what I'm hearing from other dealerships and Tesla customers dealing with this issue.

 

[JMichael]

Aren't you in the car business? Maybe people in your business dislike Tesla because they are competitors. Wasn't there a thing where some states outlawed selling cars unless it was through a dealership? Tesla wants to sell cars directly to people and those against them say no, you've gotta have a middle man. It sounds like they're needlessly raising the cost of a car.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/14/tesla-pushing-right-to-sell-cars-directly-states/

West Virginia will not allow Tesla's to be sold in the State of West Virginia so you have to go to Ohio, PA, VA etc. to buy one. As a result West Virginia loses jobs associated from sales, service and repairs.

 

[atlkvb]

Aren't you in the car business? Maybe people in your business dislike Tesla because they are competitors. Wasn't there a thing where some states outlawed selling cars unless it was through a dealership? Tesla wants to sell cars directly to people and those against them say no, you've gotta have a middle man. It sounds like they're needlessly raising the cost of a car.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/14/tesla-pushing-right-to-sell-cars-directly-states/

You have the option of growing your own food, going to a farmers market, or going to your local Kroger when you're hungry. Most consumers shop for convenience as well as their needs and will elect to shop at their local Kroger. In the automobile business it is similar. Much easier to meet your transportation needs through a third-party broker or a dealership then for you to build that car on your own or online and have it brought to you directly.

The opposition to direct sales is coming mostly from State legislatures who don't want to lose the revenues generated in their specific jurisdictions from automobile sales taxes, licensing, and registration fees. If you can order a car in New York and have it assembled in Texas then brought to you in New York without having to pay the local sales taxes, it's the New York folks who will be opposed to that not the automobile manufacturers in Texas!

 

[op2]

You have the option of growing your own food, going to a farmers market, or going to your local Kroger when you're hungry. Most consumers shop for convenience as well as their needs and will elect to shop at their local Kroger. In the automobile business it is similar. Much easier to meet your transportation needs through a third-party broker or a dealership then for you to build that car on your own or online and have it brought to you directly.

The opposition to direct sales is coming mostly from State legislatures who don't want to lose the revenues generated in their specific jurisdictions from automobile sales taxes, licensing, and registration fees. If you can order a car in New York and have it assembled in Texas then brought to you in New York without having to pay the local sales taxes, it's the New York folks who will be opposed to that not the automobile manufacturers in Texas!

What? If Tesla is allowed to sell cars in State X then State X won't get the sales tax from the sales? That doesn't sound right. I'm skeptical of that.

 

[atlkvb]

What? If Tesla is allowed to sell cars in State X then State X won't get the sales tax from the sales? That doesn't sound right. I'm skeptical of that.

They aren't. But you were questioning where the opposition to direct sales comes from? It's not Dealerships. They will simply change their business models if consumers bypass them to purchase transportation. They have to a large extent already done so.

I was trying to explain to you that most of the opposition to direct sales is coming from local taxing jurisdictions who don't want to lose that revenue.

 

[WVU82_rivals]