Shake Things Up

[satnom]

Coach P needs to change up starting lineup and rotations. Let’s keep the discussion civil and constructive. Love Coach P but he needs to make adjustments in my opinion. Put a couple players to the bench and start some new guys. Also needs to lengthen playing time of players on court when playing well. Damn sub patterns and foul considerations. Keep the guys in a groove going. Scoring droughts by players not in rhythm put RU behind the eight ball.

Other thoughts welcome.

GO RU

 

[fluoxetine]

I think this is just the DO SOMETHING fallacy showing itself. Why do we need to change lineups? Because some guys made a lot of threes? Because we had one bad shooting game?

 

[SBP]

Sure, let’s play NON STARTERS with LESS ABILITY against tge cream of B1G. Brilliant

 

[satnom]

I think this is just the DO SOMETHING fallacy showing itself. Why do we need to change lineups? Because some guys made a lot of threes? Because we had one bad shooting game?

Because if Ron is not shooting lights out and Geo to some extent, there’s no consistent 3rd, 4th or 5th scoring option.

RU was lucky to pull out game against Iowa, played a dud against PSU and was 1-16 on fgs for a stretch against MD at home. RU needs to produce more consistent offense plain and simple.

I’m all for high defensive play but RU needs buckets from players that are feeling it which should dictate playing mins not pre-game rotation sheets.

GO RU

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

No

 

[fluoxetine]

Because if Ron is not shooting lights out and Geo to some extent, there’s no consistent 3rd, 4th or 5th scoring option.

RU was lucky to pull out game against Iowa, played a dud against PSU and was 1-16 on fgs for a stretch against MD at home. RU needs to produce more consistent offense plain and simple.

I’m all for high defensive play but RU needs buckets from players that are feeling it which should dictate playing mins not pre-game rotation sheets.

GO RU

How would you plausibly know that some random bench player you weren’t planning to play is “feeling it”?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I don’t think I want to know what “it” is.

 

[RUChoppin]

I think this is just the DO SOMETHING fallacy showing itself. Why do we need to change lineups? Because some guys made a lot of threes? Because we had one bad shooting game?

One bad shooting game? I'm not on board with changing the starting lineup, but they've had a lot more than one bad shooting game.

Come to think of it, maybe we're "due"? Last six games have seen FG% oscillating up and down:
.583 - 1/8
.339 - 1/11
.482 - 1/15
.310 - 1/19
.463 - 1/22
.344 - 1/25

Does that mean this next game will be up over .460 again? lol

 

[[email protected]]

Because if Ron is not shooting lights out and Geo to some extent, there’s no consistent 3rd, 4th or 5th scoring option.

RU was lucky to pull out game against Iowa, played a dud against PSU and was 1-16 on fgs for a stretch against MD at home. RU needs to produce more consistent offense plain and simple.

I’m all for high defensive play but RU needs buckets from players that are feeling it which should dictate playing mins not pre-game rotation sheets.

GO RU

We need to develop a 3rd, 4th and 5th option.

Feel that Hyatt is #3, but Jones and Miller need to be given a pep talk and let them show their ability to score.

Also Cliff needs to develop his shooting from around the basket so he can contribute on the O side of the ball.

MO

 

[RedTeamUpstream94]

I agree. whole heartedly. 1000%!!!

Despite all that he has observed in games and practices over the last several months, if pike acquires a crystal ball and is able to know ahead of time that the likes of palmquist, Jones and/or mag will shoot better than the starters on any particular evening then, absolutely, he should give them more minutes.

thanks for the outstanding suggestion

 

[goru7]

Coach P needs to change up starting lineup and rotations. Let’s keep the discussion civil and constructive. Love Coach P but he needs to make adjustments in my opinion. Put a couple players to the bench and start some new guys. Also needs to lengthen playing time of players on court when playing well. Damn sub patterns and foul considerations. Keep the guys in a groove going. Scoring droughts by players not in rhythm put RU behind the eight ball.

Other thoughts welcome.

GO RU

Posters are jumping down your throat but you do have a point that needs some analysis and then we need to see it. Earlier in the year , I did not think Geo, Caleb and Paul should be on the court at the same time. Geo will be starting for us. Now in a number of games , Caleb and Paul are playing 35 minutes a game and giving you 10 points combined or maybe 14 at best. Caleb gives you tremendous defense but even his defense was not terrific against Minnesota , Maryland or Penn State where smaller quicker guards gave him some trouble. Paul is leading or close to leading the BIG 10 in assists but is still hesitant to shoot and score at times despite being 19 games in. We cannot continue to get only 10-14 points combined no matter how great their defense is or how great they set up their teammates as it is putting too much pressure on Ron and Geo as they need to get 40-45 a night instead of 30-35 to have a chance to win.

An argument can be made that
It is time to start either Aundre or Jaden and bring either Caleb or Paul off the bench. Maybe just maybe getting either one 5-6 straight minutes out of the chute might jump start their offensive ability as the other team has to be focusing on Ron first, Geo second and Cliff third . They both have clear athletic ability that has not been tapped. Some players have a harder time coming off the bench to start a game. Hyatt played well early when he started a couple of games but seems to force things when he comes in now to prove he deserves more time. Getting 10 points out of Aundre would be huge. Either Paul or Caleb can still have their impact but their playing 25 plus minutes instead of 35 minutes still let’s them do their thing and with fresher legs.

Your idea is not crazy and should not have been dismissed so quickly. Hawk has been harping that we are playing 4 on 5 on offense and it cannot continue so this is along those lines.

 

[fluoxetine]

Nobody’s jumping down his throat, but I think there is basically no argument at all for starting any of our bench players in place of any of our current starters.

 

[NickRU714]

Nobody’s jumping down his throat, but I think there is basically no argument at all for starting any of our bench players in place of any of our current starters.

Exactly.
Shaking things up makes sense when a bench player is performing well (not even has the be great) in limited minutes.
So give them a chance at more minutes in exchange.

Honestly, other than Reiber maybe, what bench players have shown anything to justify more minutes over starters.

The team goes as far as our stars take it - RHJ and Geo.

 

[goru7]

Nobody’s jumping down his throat, but I think there is basically no argument at all for starting any of our bench players in place of any of our current starters.

Then justify Caleb and Paul getting a combined 10-14 points a night from the 2 and 3 or 1 position playing 35 minutes each night. You are not scoring enough to win.

 

[fluoxetine]

Then justify Caleb and Paul getting a combined 10-14 points a night from the 2 and 3 or 1 position playing 35 minutes each night. You are not scoring enough to win.

Paul is better offensively than any of the players we would replace him with and Caleb is a great defender. Also they average 13.5 (which is technically between 10-14, but still) in 30.4 and 28.4 minutes (not 35).

 

[goru7]

Exactly.
Shaking things up makes sense when a bench player is performing well (not even has the be great) in limited minutes.
So give them a chance at more minutes in exchange.

Honestly, other than Reiber maybe, what bench players have shown anything to justify more minutes over starters.

The team goes as far as our stars take it - RHJ and Geo.

You rarely can win scoring 55-60 points a game. Purdue has a stat that they are like 15-0 when scoring 70 points a game and they have weapons at the 2 guard ( Ivey) , the 3 (Sasha) and the 5( Williams and Edey ) . But their point guards both of them are weak and they lost to us because they were almost scoreless and lost other games as well .
Aren’t you the guy that gave me crap about Ron not going to average 20 a night in the Big 10 and now you are saying we go as far as Geo and Ron take us , doing what scoring 30 points combined a game.

 

[fluoxetine]

We score 67.2 points per game.

 

[goru7]

Paul is better offensively than any of the players we would replace him with and Caleb is a great defender. Also they average 13.5 (which is technically between 10-14, but still) in 30.4 and 28.4 minutes (not 35).

Paul is not better offensively than either Hyatt nor Jones and you know better. I already accounted for Caleb’s great defense and Paul’s great assist game but it is not enough points for their minutes.

 

[fluoxetine]

Paul is not better offensively than either Hyatt nor Jones and you know better.

Do I? He has a higher ORtg than Hyatt and only slightly lower than Jones who plays no defense.

I already accounted for Caleb’s great defense and Paul’s great assist game but it is not enough points for their minutes.

I don't know what to tell you, there's no one better to replace them with.

 

[RUsojo]

We score 67.2 points per game.

For those who need the context that’s good for 289th best in the country.

 

[goru7]

Do I? He has a higher ORtg than Hyatt and only slightly lower than Jones who plays no defense.


I don't know what to tell you, there's no one better to replace them with.

Stop for 1 second with your analytic stats and use the eye test. Caleb and Paul were terrible early, we struggled . Caleb got over the yips and started playing better and Paul stopped hesitating on every shot and turning it over and played better and we righted the ship and they combined like for 20 points during our win streak. They have reverted to struggling again , pretty obvious , in some losses Penn State , ( 6 points each in 33 and 27 minutes ) ; even the Iowa win ( combined 9 points in 39 and 33 minutes) ; Minnesota ( combined for 12 points in33 and 31 minutes) and Maryland ( combined 11 points Caleb 11 / Paul 0 in 33 and 28 minutes. ). So no more than 12 points out of 2 positions playing that many minutes is not enough. It should be obvious to your eyes. You have no clue what Aundre or Jaden will give you starting in 20 minutes.

 

[goru7]

We score 67.2 points per game.

Except that we scored 49 , 48 , 65 and 60 in the Penn State , Iowa , Minnesota and Maryland games losing 3 of the 4 and almost all 4 , whereas 10 more points might have resulted in a win at Minnesota , a more comfortable win against Iowa , a closer game against both Maryland and Penn State. Take Nebraska out and what is our average ?

 

[fluoxetine]

For those who need the context that’s good for 289th best in the country.

Right, but it's not 55-60 as claimed.

Stop for 1 second with your analytic stats and use the eye test. Caleb and Paul were terrible early, we struggled . Caleb got over the yips and started playing better and Paul stopped hesitating on every shot and turning it over and played better and we righted the ship and they combined like for 20 points during our win streak. They have reverted to struggling again , pretty obvious , in some losses Penn State , ( 6 points each in 33 and 27 minutes ) ; even the Iowa win ( combined 9 points in 39 and 33 minutes) ; Minnesota ( combined for 12 points in33 and 31 minutes) and Maryland ( combined 11 points Caleb 11 / Paul 0 in 33 and 28 minutes. ). So no more than 12 points out of 2 positions playing that many minutes is not enough. It should be obvious to your eyes. You have no clue what Aundre or Jaden will give you starting in 20 minutes.

What is supposed to be obvious to my eyes? The number of points they scored? That seems more like a stat. There's no reason to believe Aundre or Jaden would give anything different as starters than they do off the bench.

Except that we scored 49 , 48 , 65 and 60 in the Penn State , Iowa , Minnesota and Maryland games losing 3 of the 4 and almost all 4 , whereas 10 more points might have resulted in a win at Minnesota , a more comfortable win against Iowa , a closer game against both Maryland and Penn State.

Yes, sometimes we score above our average and sometimes we score below it. When we score below it we will be less likely to win.

Take Nebraska out and what is our average ?

Why would I do that? Why not take out Merrimack instead?

 

[KevH]

Coach P needs to change up starting lineup and rotations. Let’s keep the discussion civil and constructive. Love Coach P but he needs to make adjustments in my opinion. Put a couple players to the bench and start some new guys. Also needs to lengthen playing time of players on court when playing well. Damn sub patterns and foul considerations. Keep the guys in a groove going. Scoring droughts by players not in rhythm put RU behind the eight ball.

Other thoughts welcome.

GO RU

Coach P needs to recruit better. I used to believe he could coach up diamonds in the rough enough to win consistently, but while that might work in lower divisions, it's not sustainable in this league. Hell, we can't even beat the lower level teams on our schedule.

Our current go-to players are capable of putting up some great performances... sometimes. But right now, it feels like every other game, or less frequently than that. This is not from a lack of effort. These guys are working hard for the most part. The inconsistency tells me that the great performances are them playing above their heads and not to be expected on a regular basis, the way you'd expect it from a more talented, well coached roster.

 

[ancienthooper]

Posters are jumping down your throat but you do have a point that needs some analysis and then we need to see it. Earlier in the year , I did not think Geo, Caleb and Paul should be on the court at the same time. Geo will be starting for us. Now in a number of games , Caleb and Paul are playing 35 minutes a game and giving you 10 points combined or maybe 14 at best. Caleb gives you tremendous defense but even his defense was not terrific against Minnesota , Maryland or Penn State where smaller quicker guards gave him some trouble. Paul is leading or close to leading the BIG 10 in assists but is still hesitant to shoot and score at times despite being 19 games in. We cannot continue to get only 10-14 points combined no matter how great their defense is or how great they set up their teammates as it is putting too much pressure on Ron and Geo as they need to get 40-45 a night instead of 30-35 to have a chance to win.

An argument can be made that
It is time to start either Aundre or Jaden and bring either Caleb or Paul off the bench. Maybe just maybe getting either one 5-6 straight minutes out of the chute might jump start their offensive ability as the other team has to be focusing on Ron first, Geo second and Cliff third . They both have clear athletic ability that has not been tapped. Some players have a harder time coming off the bench to start a game. Hyatt played well early when he started a couple of games but seems to force things when he comes in now to prove he deserves more time. Getting 10 points out of Aundre would be huge. Either Paul or Caleb can still have their impact but their playing 25 plus minutes instead of 35 minutes still let’s them do their thing and with fresher legs.

Your idea is not crazy and should not have been dismissed so quickly. Hawk has been harping that we are playing 4 on 5 on offense and it cannot continue so this is along those lines.

Disagree, but unlike the OP at least you’re putting yourself out there and offering specific recommendations as opposed to “Put a couple players to the bench and start some new guys.”

 

[RUChoppin]

Stop for 1 second with your analytic stats and use the eye test. Caleb and Paul were terrible early, we struggled . Caleb got over the yips and started playing better and Paul stopped hesitating on every shot and turning it over and played better and we righted the ship and they combined like for 20 points during our win streak. They have reverted to struggling again , pretty obvious , in some losses Penn State , ( 6 points each in 33 and 27 minutes ) ; even the Iowa win ( combined 9 points in 39 and 33 minutes) ; Minnesota ( combined for 12 points in33 and 31 minutes) and Maryland ( combined 11 points Caleb 11 / Paul 0 in 33 and 28 minutes. ). So no more than 12 points out of 2 positions playing that many minutes is not enough. It should be obvious to your eyes. You have no clue what Aundre or Jaden will give you starting in 20 minutes.

During January, Mulcahy has been averaging 30.8 min, 7.3 pts, 4.1 rbs, 6.6 ast... and that's including his off night against Maryland. Coming into the MD game, he was averaging 31.1 min, 8.3 pts, 4.4 rb, 6.6 ast

Not sure why you think the offense will somehow be better without him in it.

And as to the "eye test", it's pretty clear we have offensive dysfunction when he's been off the floor for too long.

 

[satnom]

Disagree, but unlike the OP at least you’re putting yourself out there and offering specific recommendations as opposed to “Put a couple players to the bench and start some new guys.”

You’re right. Goru7 has done the homework for us:

“ Stop for 1 second with your analytic stats and use the eye test. Caleb and Paul were terrible early, we struggled . Caleb got over the yips and started playing better and Paul stopped hesitating on every shot and turning it over and played better and we righted the ship and they combined like for 20 points during our win streak. They have reverted to struggling again , pretty obvious , in some losses Penn State , ( 6 points each in 33 and 27 minutes ) ; even the Iowa win ( combined 9 points in 39 and 33 minutes) ; Minnesota ( combined for 12 points in33 and 31 minutes) and Maryland ( combined 11 points Caleb 11 / Paul 0 in 33 and 28 minutes. ). So no more than 12 points out of 2 positions playing that many minutes is not enough. It should be obvious to your eyes. You have no clue what Aundre or Jaden will give you starting in 20 minutes.”

“ Except that we scored 49 , 48 , 65 and 60 in the Penn State , Iowa , Minnesota and Maryland games losing 3 of the 4 and almost all 4 , whereas 10 more points might have resulted in a win at Minnesota , a more comfortable win against Iowa , a closer game against both Maryland and Penn State. Take Nebraska out and what is our average ?”

RU is not scoring enough as a team and even with the superb assist and defensive games from Paul and Caleb respectively for their respective level of playing mins they are not providing enough offense. Andre and Jalen should start or play more mins. Heck Reiber may have to play more mins if Cliff can’t finish consistently at the basket.

Pike can only tweak the lineups based on the roster he has created and that’s why have a full roster to have options. RU can not defense itself to consistent winning, especially in the BIG.

GO RU

 

[goru7]

During January, Mulcahy has been averaging 30.8 min, 7.3 pts, 4.1 rbs, 6.6 ast... and that's including his off night against Maryland. Coming into the MD game, he was averaging 31.1 min, 8.3 pts, 4.4 rb, 6.6 ast

Not sure why you think the offense will somehow be better without him in it.

And as to the "eye test", it's pretty clear we have offensive dysfunction when he's been off the floor for too long.

Well take a look at our wins over Michigan , Nebraska and Maryland (1) . We scored 75 against Michigan and Paul scored 7 and Caleb 9 for 16 points in 27 minutes each and Hyatt had 6 points in 17 minutes. Against Nebraska , we scored 93 and Paul scored 10 points in 31 minutes and Caleb 7 in 23 minutes for 17 but Hyatt scored 13 points in 20 minutes. Against Maryland 1, we scored 71 and Paul scored 15 points in 28 minutes but Caleb had 2 points in 34 minutes for a total of 17 but Hyatt had 6 points in 13 minutes.

All wins , all games scored over 70 , all games where Paul and Caleb scored 16, 17 and 17 ( at least 4-5 points more than our 3 out of 4 losses in the games I referenced where 12 points was their high), and Hyatt had 6,13 and 6 points alone in less than half the minutes and scored 13 in 20 minutes , which goes directly to my point to start him for 5-6 minutes to get some offense , avoid slow starts , without taking a ton of minutes away from Paul or Caleb . Hyatt starting both halves for 5-6 minutes and totalling 20 minutes will likely result in him giving us double figures without an appreciable difference in the points Paul and Caleb are giving us combined .

 

[RUJMM78]

Fans don't need analytics to explain what is wrong with the mens basketball team.The eye test says they have difficulty playing man to man defense because of a lack of lateral quickness.Rebounding is mediocre because the players don't box out which results in too many offensive rebounds.On offense Baker and Harper are the only scoring threats and at times they have disappearing acts during games.The other three starters simply don't score enough points to justify playing over 30 minutes.Bench players are used more to rest starters moreso than to receive scoring help.At this late stage of the season I don't see significant change in performance.Rutgers might upset some higher rated teams at the RAC but will still have great difficulty winning five out of the remaining eleven games.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Our starting 5 is a below average offensive lineup. There is little doubt it is our best lineup. It is possible it is still our best possible offensive lineup.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

For the record...Pikiell tried many combinations vs. Maryland. No one on the bench stepped up.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

Nobody’s jumping down his throat, but I think there is basically no argument at all for starting any of our bench players in place of any of our current starters.

Do you watch the 1st 10 minutes of our games? There’s the “argument “ right there. It’s worse than watching paint dry and SOMETHING has to be done to send a message.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

Our starting 5 is a below average offensive lineup. There is little doubt it is our best lineup. It is possible it is still our best possible offensive lineup.

I think you’re missing the point.

 

[goru7]

Our starting 5 is a below average offensive lineup. There is little doubt it is our best lineup. It is possible it is still our best possible offensive lineup.

Possible is what you say not probable because you do not know. You know when we score 70 or more our chances to win increase tremendously .

Think about this for a second. The Iowa game was probably one of our greatest defensive performances under Pike and the second half was probably the best ever, and still we won only 48-46. Pike doubled down in the press conference after the Maryland game , saying how bad we were defensively in the first half and citing history “ We have had games where we don’t score , they don’s score , we know how to do that “, clearly referring to Iowa and not realizing how hard that effort was and just maybe it affected our offense that night. Listen , I love Pike , but his defensiveness to that question that was asked about ******
first half offense against Maryland , really exposed a problem with his thinking.

You are not going to get the spectacular Iowa defense every night but if you score 70 every night , you have a greater chance to win. He has to come to that realization and it has hurt us this year Without getting enough points out of Hyatt , none out of Jones , and I even forgot Mag , who has a chance to provide offense as well.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I think you’re missing the point.

I get the point. We played terrible up until 35-15. Pike shook things up. We played fine after that.

Against Minnesota and Maryland we ran in to teams making tough shots that they normally don’t make.

I didn’t see guys slow going back on D. I didn’t see guys going under screens.

why would we put an inferior lineup on the court because our last 2 opponents made some ridiculous shots against a decent defense?

add to that the bench was given a chance vs MD and weren’t very good and have been bad all year.

There have been times in the past 2 1/2 where change was necessary and change happened. This clearly is not one of them.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Do you watch the 1st 10 minutes of our games? There’s the “argument “ right there. It’s worse than watching paint dry and SOMETHING has to be done to send a message.

Reiber was inserted in to the game before the 1st media TO. Pike called 2 TOS and yelled at the team in the huddle. He gave Jones 5 minutes. He played Miller. Hyatt got minutes.

it pains me to say but those guys are a huge step down form guys in our starting 5.

 

[zebnatto]

E

One bad shooting game? I'm not on board with changing the starting lineup, but they've had a lot more than one bad shooting game.

Come to think of it, maybe we're "due"? Last six games have seen FG% oscillating up and down:
.583 - 1/8
.339 - 1/11
.482 - 1/15
.310 - 1/19
.463 - 1/22
.344 - 1/25

Does that mean this next game will be up over .460 again? lol

Shows you that a team’s shooting percentage may not mean that much

 

[Shelby65]

Paul is better offensively than any of the players we would replace him with and Caleb is a great defender. Also they average 13.5 (which is technically between 10-14, but still) in 30.4 and 28.4 minutes (not 35).

No, Paul is not better offensively than Hyatt. Paul is one of the few who can't create his own shot unless against a much, much smaller defender, and often passes up easier shots down low in favor of passing out to the perimeter.

Worse, he's completely ineffective when Baker is in because, with Baker at point, he doesn't get many opportunities to drive and pass. Baker is the most ball-dominant player I can remember.

And he can't defend.

They shouldn't play together as much, and since Baker is a scorer then Paul should play much less. Hyatt is clearly a better scorer, and I'd give Jones more opportunities since we are so scoring-deficient.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

I get the point. We played terrible up until 35-15. Pike shook things up. We played fine after that.

Against Minnesota and Maryland we ran in to teams making tough shots that they normally don’t make.

I didn’t see guys slow going back on D. I didn’t see guys going under screens.

why would we put an inferior lineup on the court because our last 2 opponents made some ridiculous shots against a decent defense?

add to that the bench was given a chance vs MD and weren’t very good and have been bad all year.

There have been times in the past 2 1/2 where change was necessary and change happened. This clearly is not one of them.

Nope, you still don’t get it. Maybe this will help:

 

[AreYouNUTS]

Reiber was inserted in to the game before the 1st media TO. Pike called 2 TOS and yelled at the team in the huddle. He gave Jones 5 minutes. He played Miller. Hyatt got minutes.

it pains me to say but those guys are a huge step down form guys in our starting 5.

Again, you’ve apparently not paid much attention the last three seasons, because this isn’t a one or two game thing and it’s not about inserting guys into the lineup early. This team simply does not come out of the locker room with a fire under their feet. It’s a major problem,