Seton Hall Finances

[MichiganStoleTitle]

Discussed a bit on the Trove but would welcome the views of some of you knowledgeable folks here. (Looking at you @SPK145.). We're constantly told the school just can't afford to compete. Is that true? Or more like an old lady with a Virginia ham under her arm crying she ain't got no bread?

For your consideration, the school's latest Form 990 is available at the link below. It reports approximately $564M in revenue for the Fiscal Year ending June 2024 against approximately $551M in expenses. Total assets are $922M vs. liabilities of $369M.

I confess I'm not an expert in non-profit accounting, so would welcome insight from anyone who is. And I know there's probably only so much one can discern from such documents. (E.g., presumably some funds are gifted according to instruments that say they can only be used for certain purposes, etc.) But at a surface level certainly seems to suggest there is a little bit of wiggle-room to devote more resources.

Seton Hall University - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.

projects.propublica.org

 

[The SHUttle]

I wonder how much creative math is used to limit how much revenue above OE is shown since they are a non-profit. It's good to see that they are not hemorrhaging money as many other small, private universities were/are leading to closures. I believe the more telling number here may be to look at the growth of the endowment YOY.

 

[Section112]

First of all we are not consistently told we can’t afford to compete. While we are not in the same league as the big schools and never will be, the university has done more frankly than I expected. If getting to $7 or $8M this year from the school and revenue share is what we can do, Sha will figure out how best to compete with those funds. Do we all wish we could do more? Of course. We will never have the funding of the big state run schools so we have to make the best decisions with that $ which could still be better than 3 or 4 BE programs. We are what we are.

And if our giving rate improved it could help. Our alums don’t give like other schools do and that’s on us. Sad but true. Hopefully it changes.

 

[SPK145]

The school itself is not putting in anything close to 7-8 million, donors are putting in more than the school. It was worse this past season. It’s mostly on donors.

 

[Seton75]

The school itself is not putting in anything close to 7-8 million, donors are putting in more than the school. It was worse this past season. It’s mostly on donors.

And, this is the problem. When I heard the term "revenue sharing", it said to me schools take the money from operating income and we now had that plus donations. A guy I know straightened me out. Thankful that we have some generous donors, cause the shu money gets us nowhere.

 

[TommyD82]

The school itself is not putting in anything close to 7-8 million, donors are putting in more than the school. It was worse this past season. It’s mostly on donors.

That sounds accurate and is why the NIL collective was merged into pirate blue. On athletic dept revenue of $10M how could the school put 7-8M in for paying athletes without subsidies like RU?

 

[MichiganStoleTitle]

The school itself is not putting in anything close to 7-8 million, donors are putting in more than the school. It was worse this past season. It’s mostly on donors.

But is that because the school doesn’t want to spend the money or because it can’t?

 

[GrMtWood]

The fans goal is to win.

It appears the goal of the Hall is to be competitive and max revenue.

 

[TommyD82]

But is that because the school doesn’t want to spend the money or because it can’t?

If the school wanted to do what RU does it could spend. Hike student fees, get a loan or contribution from the school general operating fund and get more state aid though not a state school. NJ taxpayers are subsidizing RU athletic spending through direct state aid. That has been noted here.

 

[SHUSource]

But is that because the school doesn’t want to spend the money or because it can’t?

In all likelihood, it can't. I don't think people realize how close to the margin these universities operate.

 

[SPK145]

The real picture is illuminated in the annual audit of Seton Hall's finances.

At 06/30/2024, Seton Hall's net assets without donor restrictions is $287 million. It's net assets with donor restrictions is $265 million. This totals your $553 (rounded) million of net assets.

For the year ended 06/30/2024, Seton Hall's net income without restrictions is that $13 million you alluded to above.

For the year ended 06/30/2024, Seton Hall's endowment was $370 million (rounded), an increase of $34 million over the year. Of that $370 million, $141 million is without restrictions and $228 million is with restrictions.

So the answer is Seton Hall could contribute more if they wanted to but it's not that simple. There are competing priorities in running a university. And remember, Seton Hall is an institute of higher education, not a basketball factory.

 

[MichiganStoleTitle]

The real picture is illuminated in the annual audit of Seton Hall's finances.

At 06/30/2024, Seton Hall's net assets without donor restrictions is $287 million. It's net assets with donor restrictions is $265 million. This totals your $553 (rounded) million of net assets.

For the year ended 06/30/2024, Seton Hall's net income without restrictions is that $13 million you alluded to above.

For the year ended 06/30/2024, Seton Hall's endowment was $370 million (rounded), an increase of $34 million over the year. Of that $370 million, $141 million is without restrictions and $228 million is with restrictions.

So the answer is Seton Hall could contribute more if they wanted to but it's not that simple. There are competing priorities in running a university. And remember, Seton Hall is an institute of higher education, not a basketball factory.

Thank you. Very interesting.

And completely agree with the last point—just wish there were more transparent conversations around it.

 

[Garyshu1971]

There are many institutions that are not making the numbers work. And losing their *** and invading the endowment. That’s what schools that can’t call the statehouse for money do. The fact that the endowment is growing at Seton Hall is a good sign. The expenses can be cooked many ways but seeing them carefully managed to be slightly less than revenue is also encouraging. You have to give them credit. Now if they could clean up some situations all would be well

 

[PirateBlue08]

Always was curious why schools like the Ivys with massive endowments don't dip into it in order to fund their sports more. You can't tell me Harvard actually needs 56 billion to operate. Where is all that extra money going?

An extra 10 or 20 million taken from that and put towards buying a basketball team that is like me dropping a quarter on the ground and not caring. Yet that could buy them a championship basketball team. I guess they just aren't prioritizing it?

 

[radecicco]

The Ivys are different. Living in Princeton and attending many sporting events I realized that they have their way of doing things and they’re not going to change. It’s true college athletics, no NIL BS but the money these schools pour into their athletic facilities and playing fields is truly remarkable. The women’s softball field at Princeton is incredible and tops anything that SHU has outdoors. And they sponsor many sports. Ivy League athletics have a quaint feel, are very competitive at their level and are attended by the wealthiest alumni in the country.

 

[mbraue]

Discussed a bit on the Trove but would welcome the views of some of you knowledgeable folks here. (Looking at you @SPK145.). We're constantly told the school just can't afford to compete. Is that true? Or more like an old lady with a Virginia ham under her arm crying she ain't got no bread?

For your consideration, the school's latest Form 990 is available at the link below. It reports approximately $564M in revenue for the Fiscal Year ending June 2024 against approximately $551M in expenses. Total assets are $922M vs. liabilities of $369M.

I confess I'm not an expert in non-profit accounting, so would welcome insight from anyone who is. And I know there's probably only so much one can discern from such documents. (E.g., presumably some funds are gifted according to instruments that say they can only be used for certain purposes, etc.) But at a surface level certainly seems to suggest there is a little bit of wiggle-room to devote more resources.

Seton Hall University - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.

projects.propublica.org

Our balance sheet is so solid. I once compared this to St. John's and we were in better shape - not of course including NIL and Repole money. But our balance sheet is stronger. Kudos to the university and finance folks for managing our affairs well!

 

[Blue Bloods]

The real picture is illuminated in the annual audit of Seton Hall's finances.

At 06/30/2024, Seton Hall's net assets without donor restrictions is $287 million. It's net assets with donor restrictions is $265 million. This totals your $553 (rounded) million of net assets.

For the year ended 06/30/2024, Seton Hall's net income without restrictions is that $13 million you alluded to above.

For the year ended 06/30/2024, Seton Hall's endowment was $370 million (rounded), an increase of $34 million over the year. Of that $370 million, $141 million is without restrictions and $228 million is with restrictions.

So the answer is Seton Hall could contribute more if they wanted to but it's not that simple. There are competing priorities in running a university. And remember, Seton Hall is an institute of higher education, not a basketball factory.

So you're saying we'll be turning down Crown and NIT invitations, if we are even that lucky, year after year?

 

[HALL85]

The school has been on a path to improve its financial position and the results show that it’s working. And to SPK’s point, the objective of the University is to be an institution of higher learning. They are doing this with a modest overal

It does beg the question of why should the school dip into its endowment or move money from other programs and operations to subsidize men’s basketball. They clearly are not moving that money; they are not investing to improve student/alumni giving. It looks like there are a group of “mini-whales” that are funding most of MBB. I don’t see any widespread effort by Administration to crowd surf or invest in broader fan support.

The rabid fans on this site are a very small minority. Even the coach doesn’t think we matter. We will probably never know why student support is spotty. Maybe MBB has little impact on why a student chooses SHU nowadays.

 

[Seton75]

The Ivys are different. Living in Princeton and attending many sporting events I realized that they have their way of doing things and they’re not going to change. It’s true college athletics, no NIL BS but the money these schools pour into their athletic facilities and playing fields is truly remarkable. The women’s softball field at Princeton is incredible and tops anything that SHU has outdoors. And they sponsor many sports. Ivy League athletics have a quaint feel, are very competitive at their level and are attended by the wealthiest alumni in the country.

It would be funny if the ivys decided to buy the best fb or bb team, kick everyones butt, then after a yr, went back to being the ivy league, just to make a point

 

[HallGuy2323]

Always was curious why schools like the Ivys with massive endowments don't dip into it in order to fund their sports more. You can't tell me Harvard actually needs 56 billion to operate. Where is all that extra money going?

An extra 10 or 20 million taken from that and put towards buying a basketball team that is like me dropping a quarter on the ground and not caring. Yet that could buy them a championship basketball team. I guess they just aren't prioritizing it?

Once you go down this rabbit hole of questioning there’s no coming back..

 

[PirateBlue08]

Once you go down this rabbit hole of questioning there’s no coming back..

Money laundering system for the deep state? Wouldn’t be surprised.

 

[HallGuy2323]

Money laundering system for the deep state? Wouldn’t be surprised.

 

[Section112]

There are a lot of small universities like ours that are looking at the possibility of closing in the next 2-10 years. There was an article in the WSJ about it today (mentions St Michaels in Vermont as a school on the brink). One of the points made in it is that some of the schools like ours are trying to improve their sports programs to help market the school. In the past, that math has never been proven. Maybe it is more important today due to the incredible publicity some of these schools get. It may also be fools gold as there were no cinderella's this year - only well funded large schools with one exception (St Johns). Maybe we should feel good that SHU is in a solid financial condition right now.

 

[SPK145]

One of the points made in it is that some of the schools like ours are trying to improve their sports programs to help market the school. In the past, that math has never been proven. Maybe it is more important today due to the incredible publicity some of these schools get. It may also be fools gold as there were no cinderella's this year - only well funded large schools with one exception (St Johns). Maybe we should feel good that SHU is in a solid financial condition right now.

Calling @SHUSource, stop the Pitino jokes and answer this.

 

[SHUSource]

Calling @SHUSource, stop the Pitino jokes and answer this.

OK, and I'll be as brief as possible.

Just about all of the peer-reviewed academic research that I am aware of (and I'll add my own, which was not per-reviewed, per se, but did receive an "A" grade in grad school about a dozen years ago) shows that the perceived benefits of high-level sports on admission offices are not real, and are far fewer in basketball as compared to football. I was surprised when I first began reading about this, but the data checks out.

To greatly oversimplify it, only high-level football programs that win consistently, year after year, see the benefit of enrolling a greater number of students who are also high-achieving students with plenty of other options -- that is, not filling more seats with mediocre students. And I mean the top schools; In recent times, Alabama and Clemson, for example, have seen football influence good students to enroll, the types who raise the quality of their admitted classes. With Clemson having cooled off, it'll be interesting to see if that wanes. And none of this still managed to significantly elevate Alabama's overall academic reputation or standing.

In basketball, you see it even less. Duke has been buoyed by the sport in the admissions office, but think about how long they had to be a top-five type program to see that. And it was always considered a rigorous school even before Coach K landed there, so it's not a reach to think they would always do well. They just become a more attractive choice to kids who might otherwise consider Vanderbilt or Stanford if they are also interested in hoops.

For a place like Seton Hall. that seldom experiences the sort of success that shapes an incoming class, there's negligible benefit to any of this, other than as a means of enjoyment in and of itself. A program has to make a Sweet Sixteen for there to even be a spike in applications, and that spike will only last though that cycle, evaporate the next, and even still, any increase in enrollment does not yield a better quality of student. More overqualified students may decide to apply because that Sweet Sixteen got their attention, but these schools are not converting them.

Seton Hall got a nice temporary bump in fundraising after capturing the nation's hearts in 1989, and managed to convert that into some substantial campus capital improvements. But the effect in the admissions office did not elevate our academic profile. It produced more applications, but for the most part, the admits were of the same quality. And with us not having been to the Sweet Sixteen in 26 years, we've seen an entire generation of students to whom basketball played no part in their decision to enroll. There are always individual exceptions, of course, as you or your friends may feel differently, but you are outliers, statistically speaking.

Many folks like to offer the "Flutie Factor" experienced by Boston College after Doug Flutie's career there, capped by the 1984 Heisman Trophy, But the reason it's called that is because of its isolated case -- the rare instance where short-term, moderate success helped transform a university. And (and I cannot point you to any work offhand supporting this) still, some in the know insist they were already poised for that leap, having already kicked off a humongous capital campaign that had already completed a super-successful quiet phase. The Flutie thing just helped extend that momentum.

(I realize this isn't brief at all, but there really is so much more to say about it. The book "Beer and Circus: How Big-Time College Sports Has Crippled Undergraduate Education" is excellent and closely related to this, even if after 25 years plenty of the numbers discussed are outdated. In general, it's a great lens into the scam of big-time college sports utilized as a marketing tool or of having value to a unversity.)

 

[STLPirate12]

It would be a mistake for the university to perpetually move money around to subsidize men's basketball beyond the true value of the media earned by it. It would be unsustainable, at some point burdensome, and not aligned with the core mission of the University.

It would be strategically sound, if not brilliant, for the university to move money to temporarily prop up men's basketball to accelerate a realistic path towards self-sufficiency for the athletic department. That's the key though: self-sufficiency must be determined to be realistic with a tangible plan in place, and the department needs to be able to show meaningful year - over - year progress towards achieving it. Otherwise, the money is wasted and the program becomes a burden to the school rather than an asset.

 

[SPK145]

You really bent that over the table.

 

[JoePeppitone2012]

Wasn’t there an increase in the later Willard years with Whitehead and Powell of applications to the school?

 

[SHUSource]

Wasn’t there an increase in the later Willard years with Whitehead and Powell of applications to the school?

Probably. Applications rose almost everywhere, but that was also about the same time Seton Hall introduced that tuition program where ... I forget the particulars, but it was something like qualified applicants/those over a certain GPA wouldn't pay more at Seton Hall than they would for Rutgers. That stoked applications, I know that.

 

[SHUSource]

You really bent that over the table.

I'm going to celebrate with some wine. Maybe two ... a bottle of red; a bottle of white...

 

[HallGuy2323]

Change the thread title to: Seton Hall Finances - Not Enough

 

[The Crows Nest]

Probably. Applications rose almost everywhere, but that was also about the same time Seton Hall introduced that tuition program where ... I forget the particulars, but it was something like qualified applicants/those over a certain GPA wouldn't pay more at Seton Hall than they would for Rutgers. That stoked applications, I know that.

yes, top 10% of their HS class...

 

[JoePeppitone2012]

Probably. Applications rose almost everywhere, but that was also about the same time Seton Hall introduced that tuition program where ... I forget the particulars, but it was something like qualified applicants/those over a certain GPA wouldn't pay more at Seton Hall than they would for Rutgers. That stoked applications, I know that.

The record number of applications to Seton Hall as well as the unprecedented size of the incoming undergraduate class continues a record-breaking trend for the University. The Class of 2025 marks the sixth time in seven years the University has broken its own record for applications and the fourth time in five years it has done so for class size.

Prior to this year, the largest class of freshmen to date was the Class of 2023 (entered 2019), which held 1,633 freshmen and itself broke the record of the Class of 2022 (1,524), which in turn had broken the record of the Class of 2021 (1,461).

"New Jersey's best kept academic secret is seemingly out," said Seton Hall University Vice President for Enrollment Management Alyssa McCloud. "In 2016 we broke our record for applications with a little more than 15,000 – this year, just five years later, we had more than 23,000 applicants, an increase of more than 50 percent. As recognition of our academic distinction and outstanding employment outcomes has spread, more of the nation's best and brightest have come home to the Hall."

In the context of this how does this compare?

And yes, only psycho fans like ourselves would remember details like this from a few years ago

Class of 2025 Breaks Records! - Seton Hall University

The Class of 2025 at Seton Hall University has broken records for the most applicants, largest class, highest average GPA, highest average SAT and ACT scores and the most diverse student body.

www.shu.edu

 

[mbraue]

OK, and I'll be as brief as possible.

Just about all of the peer-reviewed academic research that I am aware of (and I'll add my own, which was not per-reviewed, per se, but did receive an "A" grade in grad school about a dozen years ago) shows that the perceived benefits of high-level sports on admission offices are not real, and are far fewer in basketball as compared to football. I was surprised when I first began reading about this, but the data checks out.

To greatly oversimplify it, only high-level football programs that win consistently, year after year, see the benefit of enrolling a greater number of students who are also high-achieving students with plenty of other options -- that is, not filling more seats with mediocre students. And I mean the top schools; In recent times, Alabama and Clemson, for example, have seen football influence good students to enroll, the types who raise the quality of their admitted classes. With Clemson having cooled off, it'll be interesting to see if that wanes. And none of this still managed to significantly elevate Alabama's overall academic reputation or standing.

In basketball, you see it even less. Duke has been buoyed by the sport in the admissions office, but think about how long they had to be a top-five type program to see that. And it was always considered a rigorous school even before Coach K landed there, so it's not a reach to think they would always do well. They just become a more attractive choice to kids who might otherwise consider Vanderbilt or Stanford if they are also interested in hoops.

For a place like Seton Hall. that seldom experiences the sort of success that shapes an incoming class, there's negligible benefit to any of this, other than as a means of enjoyment in and of itself. A program has to make a Sweet Sixteen for there to even be a spike in applications, and that spike will only last though that cycle, evaporate the next, and even still, any increase in enrollment does not yield a better quality of student. More overqualified students may decide to apply because that Sweet Sixteen got their attention, but these schools are not converting them.

Seton Hall got a nice temporary bump in fundraising after capturing the nation's hearts in 1989, and managed to convert that into some substantial campus capital improvements. But the effect in the admissions office did not elevate our academic profile. It produced more applications, but for the most part, the admits were of the same quality. And with us not having been to the Sweet Sixteen in 26 years, we've seen an entire generation of students to whom basketball played no part in their decision to enroll. There are always individual exceptions, of course, as you or your friends may feel differently, but you are outliers, statistically speaking.

Many folks like to offer the "Flutie Factor" experienced by Boston College after Doug Flutie's career there, capped by the 1984 Heisman Trophy, But the reason it's called that is because of its isolated case -- the rare instance where short-term, moderate success helped transform a university. And (and I cannot point you to any work offhand supporting this) still, some in the know insist they were already poised for that leap, having already kicked off a humongous capital campaign that had already completed a super-successful quiet phase. The Flutie thing just helped extend that momentum.

(I realize this isn't brief at all, but there really is so much more to say about it. The book "Beer and Circus: How Big-Time College Sports Has Crippled Undergraduate Education" is excellent and closely related to this, even if after 25 years plenty of the numbers discussed are outdated. In general, it's a great lens into the scam of big-time college sports utilized as a marketing tool or of having value to a unversity.)

Then thank God that Sha, Felt, Hank and others are saying take a hike to these crazy asks by players. Let's field a good basketball team with $8 million - geez Dayton retained 9 players with $2.5 million - have CrowdStrike billionaire fund a cybersecurity program and see SHU enjoy heightened academic success and longevity with excellent academic programs and good sports programs as a bonus.

No need to bankrupt the school or the fans for this current level of absurdity.