Rutgers vs Illinois Shot Selection Disparity

[S_Janowski]

He is the HEAD coach!!
He recruited this talent!!
HE is in charge of putting the players in the position for success!!

this chart screams that he doesn’t know what he is doing and his offense is similar to the portal as it’s wild Wild West.

I don’t blame the talent as they were recruited here and only doing what they are coached to do.

As an observer I would prefer we shoot 30% from 3 rather than 50% as we sick shooting anyway and beat to try and get points on the board. I watch other teams get players WIDE open against us yet I see very little of that when we have the ball. This needs to change

BAC wrote “it’s a Pikiell problem either way” and the first two words I responded with were “I agree”.

Keep up and stop shouting at me lol.

The point I’m making is that our team is INCAPABLE of successfully pulling off shot charts like many of our opposing teams because our roster stinks and is poorly constructed.

Illinois shot chart is so pretty - sure let’s have Zrno go 0 for 32 instead of 0 for 16.

 

[dark_check]

I don't disagree with that.

I do disagree that you can't win shooting midrange shots...if you have the right personnel for it. Plenty of excellent coaches out there don't demand this sort of shot chart.

Most coaches I’ve worked with and coached against expect layups layups layups or a 3. It’s just the modern game.

 

[RAC’emUp]

This chart is more dramatic than most because of our defense, rather than our offense. Illinois backed down our small guards over and over.

 

[NickRU714]

The football team should run up the middle every play.
I mean, if you just block really well and break tackles then it'll work.
It's possible to win that way if you are just successful at it.
The team isn't built to pass the ball or run outside anyway so we should just do what they are relatively best at.


This is what every defense of midrange shots look like.
Anything can be successful if you are great at it.

The point goes beyond "this roster".
As has been pointed out - the problem is building a roster where this shot chart is routine and expected.

Every year it looks like this.
That is a Pike problem.
Its not "Even Brad Underwood couldn't get this roster to shoot".
It's "Brad Underwood would never build a roster that has to take so many mid range shots."

This isn't a NIL or Portal problem.
It's been a problem every year.

 

[dark_check]

Pre-NIL he was trying to attract talent to a school that hadn’t been to the tourney. A lot of people missed on Jaden (weird situation) and Gavin (even Hoiberg couldn’t fix him).

It’s not like there’s a line of 6’6+, 40%+ shooters forming a line at the RAC and Pike is like “sorry, we’re not interested”.

He’s far from perfect - and has absolutely had some misses, gaps, etc. But I also don’t think he’s on a level playing field for talent.

In my mind, he’s got one more year to fix it - as long as it doesn’t go off the rails.

There’s a few years in between “we didn’t make a tourney” and NIL. He blew those years recruiting. IMO it’s already off the rails.

 

[dark_check]

I don't disagree with that.

I do disagree that you can't win shooting midrange shots...if you have the right personnel for it. Plenty of excellent coaches out there don't demand this sort of shot chart.

It’s just poor modern basketball.

 

[Ridge 22]

If a coach doesn't attempt to teach or run an offense at all, how can that coach expect his team to play good offense? You get what we have like that. Bad players only make it worse. Pike disregards half the game. Why are people so eager to defend this?

 

[RUBlackout]

My larger argument with Pike over the years is that there has not been any changes into his style or philosophy.
When you hear videos like Danny Hurley talk about change his approach to offense and philosophy it makes you question we have done.
We simply throw out the guys on the court and same **** different day.

 

[bac2therac]

Pre-NIL he was trying to attract talent to a school that hadn’t been to the tourney. A lot of people missed on Jaden (weird situation) and Gavin (even Hoiberg couldn’t fix him).

It’s not like there’s a line of 6’6+, 40%+ shooters forming a line at the RAC and Pike is like “sorry, we’re not interested”.

He’s far from perfect - and has absolutely had some misses, gaps, etc. But I also don’t think he’s on a level playing field for talent.

In my mind, he’s got one more year to fix it - as long as it doesn’t go off the rails.

He failed miserably in attractung talent after the initial run

Guys like Mulcahy Hyatt J Will simply not good enough..total misses line GG and Jones then compounding the problem with j mike EO reiber wolf

Awful recruiting really and Ace/Dylan came here because they could showcase with no emphasis on team

 

[S_Janowski]

I always find it assuming when people use one of Pike's failings to support another one of his failings. Moron logic at its best. At this point it doesnt matter why he can't get it done. It's his fault regardless.

Except nowhere in this thread am I trying to support Pikiell.

My point was for the people who think every shot chart from every team should look the same….that’s moronic logic.

The shot chart should be representative of the players on the court and their skillset and abilities. We have a lot of players who can’t create shots for themselves or others, and a lot of players who can’t make shots.

So it doesn’t really matter what our shot chart looks like.

 

[FAT MOON]

Most coaches I’ve worked with and coached against expect layups layups layups or a 3. It’s just the modern game.

what level have you coached at? who are these other coaches you speak of?

just the modern game that plenty of the best coaches in the country don't subscribe to...

 

[dark_check]

what level have you coached at? who are these other coaches you speak of?

just the modern game that plenty of the best coaches in the country don't subscribe to...

AAU and high school. Are you going to tell me that the best teams don’t want paint touches, paint shots or threes first and foremost? If you think that it’s not worth continuing this conversation

 

[FAT MOON]

AAU and high school. Are you going to tell me that the best teams don’t want paint touches, paint shots or threes first and foremost? If you think that it’s not worth continuing this conversation

of course coaches want that...paint touches are the foundation of a good offense.

but nothing in anything you ever post makes me think you know anything real about this game so let's talk xs and os.

what did you do specifically to make sure your players never shot a midrange shot and what did you do if they did? what sort of defense did you implement to encourage your opponents to shoot midrange shots?

 

[RUskoolie]

Well, I mean I dont know what to tell you but theres data on this and youre completely wrong

Games are not played with data. I hear your point but how the hell are we supposed to drive into the paint with 6' guards when the other team has trees on defense. That would be like you driving on me in the paint. You would get stuffed and start settling for 15 or 18' jump shots.

 

[KK1827]

Games are not played with data. I hear your point but how the hell are we supposed to drive into the paint with 6' guards when the other team has trees on defense. That would be like you driving on me in the paint. You would get stuffed and start settling for 15 or 18' jump shots.

Its a decade of it, not just one season

 

[BillyC80]

It is true that the "modern" approach is how Illinois shot last night. But we don't have consistent 3-pt shooters or guys who can get downhill and finish at the rim. Quite frankly, we have a better chance of scoring a basket if Francis, JMike, or Buchanan shoot pull-up jumpers at the elbow. I don't want them trying to get through the "trees" to the rim, as that shot will invariably get blocked or we get called for a charge.

That said, if we have OPEN threes (by guys who can shoot them at 30% or better), then the shot should be taken regardless of how much time is left on the shot clock.

I used to tell my guys, you have an obligation to take any good look, as soon as it presents itself.

 

[RUDiddy777]

Its a decade of it, not just one season

Not at all true.

 

[KK1827]

Not at all true.

Yes it is. You can look up the shot charts from his entire tenure

 

[dark_check]

of course coaches want that...paint touches are the foundation of a good offense.

but nothing in anything you ever post makes me think you know anything real about this game so let's talk xs and os.

what did you do specifically to make sure your players never shot a midrange shot and what did you do if they did? what sort of defense did you implement to encourage your opponents to shoot midrange shots?

“Nothing in anything you ever post makes me think you know anything real…..” with all those absolutes I know you’re not worth the conversation. So I’ll keep my layered press, my Bob Huggins 1-3-1 that shrinks my defense to a quarter of the court, my aggressive 3-2, my one man zone, my man drills, my shell practice games, and my help the helper drills all to myself. I’ll also keep my player shot charts, metric player sheets, my points per shot and other stats, my interior screens, my read and react offense, and my zone sets all to myself too. I’ll also keep to myself the way I would incentivize players in practice to MAKE SURE their feet were behind the three point line and disincentivize them if a toe was touching the line or worse if they were a few feet inside the arc.

And when did I say I made sure my players NEVER took a mid range shots. Your use of the English language is unbearably inflexible. I teach them the best shot is an uncontested shot. Can that sometimes mean a mid range? Sure. You want your offense players to be able to score from all three levels. But in HS that’s sometimes the holy grail with the mid range being the third level some will add. However I can scheme to and encourage paint touches and shots OR I can scheme for and encourage threes for the bonus. Again I didn’t say NEVER a midrange. It’s just a tougher shot with a lower percentage than a layup and it doesn’t offer the bonus of a three. Take good care my man.

 

[seansherm]

Not at all true.

Its been pretty similar for a while now

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

So now shot charts are the problem? Come on. What a joke.

We’re not winning games by “feeding Zrno for 3” to make that chart look pretty and hoping he goes off and drains for 8+ of them for us in a game. It’s not happening. Not him or any combination of anyone on the team.

Outside of an early three here and there to open a game (before a defense sees what we’re running and adjusts) Zrno is only going to get the kind of clean looks that allow him “go off - if you want to call it that” when opponent defenses fall asleep because the team has already put the game out of reach. Despite what Goru and a few others might think, it is not a random coincidence that Zrno has only nailed more than 2 threes in the collection of games where we were blown out. Even with light pressure, Zrno has really struggled, not only missing, but often missing badly (even against very weak teams). If anyone has shown the potential to get hot from deep in meaningful situations it’s JMike and that’s because when he’s on he can nail them off the dribble (not dependent on him receiving the ball wide open). But even there - it’s not going to be enough to win games.

Francis doesn’t take that many “long” 2s. His 4-5 foot floater / runner is more efficient than most guys on our teams rate of success at the rim by a wide margin. Not only that - but he uses the threat of that to fake out defenders and get his finger roll lay ups at the rim. He has a fairly large portfolio of shots that he takes in the paint. And Francis also draws a ton of fouls off of those so called mid range attempts which come off the shot selection chart I believe.

But if the implied suggestion is that the key to winning more games would be more volume of 3s by Zrno and Powers and less of Francis doing his thing in penetration - that chart will look nicer but we most certainly will not win more.

 

[FAT MOON]

“Nothing in anything you ever post makes me think you know anything real…..” with all those absolutes I know you’re not worth the conversation. So I’ll keep my layered press, my Bob Huggins 1-3-1 that shrinks my defense to a quarter of the court, my aggressive 3-2, my one man zone, my man drills, my shell practice games, and my help the helper drills all to myself. I’ll also keep my player shot charts, metric player sheets, my points per shot and other stats, my interior screens, my read and react offense, and my zone sets all to myself too. I’ll also keep to myself the way I would incentivize players in practice to MAKE SURE their feet were behind the three point line and disincentivize them if a toe was touching the line or worse if they were a few feet inside the arc.

And when did I say I made sure my players NEVER took a mid range shots. Your use of the English language is unbearably inflexible. I teach them the best shot is an uncontested shot. Can that sometimes mean a mid range? Sure. You want your offense players to be able to score from all three levels. But in HS that’s sometimes the holy grail with the mid range being the third level some will add. However I can scheme to and encourage paint touches and shots OR I can scheme for and encourage threes for the bonus. Again I didn’t say NEVER a midrange. It’s just a tougher shot with a lower percentage than a layup and it doesn’t offer the bonus of a three. Take good care my man.

yes that's correct you normal posts are whining about posters accepting mediocrity, or whining that you told everyone we'd be bad and some posters didn't listen to you or whining about how Pike doesn't seem to know the first thing about coaching, even though he has a head coaching job in a top 2 conference in the country.

so let's just agree that you Chat GPT'd the s*it out of this message and keep it moving...

or you can show me how little i know and start actually posting real basketball content and opinions and join the few of us who like to discuss stuff besides the "Pike sucks. Pike is lazy. Pike can't identify talent. Pike doesn't practice offense. The game has passed Pike by" nonsense that is 90% of what is said around here.

 

[RUDivision]

So now shot charts are the problem? Come on. What a joke.

We’re not winning games by “feeding Zrno for 3” to make that chart look pretty and hoping he goes off and drains for 8+ of them for us in a game. It’s not happening. Not him or any combination of anyone on the team.

Outside of an early three here and there to open a game (before a defense sees what we’re running and adjusts) Zrno is only going to get the kind of clean looks that allow him “go off - if you want to call it that” when opponent defenses fall asleep because the team has already put the game out of reach. Despite what Goru and a few others might think, it is not a random coincidence that Zrno has only nailed more than 2 threes in the collection of games where we were blown out. Even with light pressure, Zrno has really struggled, not only missing, but often missing badly (even against very weak teams). If anyone has shown the potential to get hot from deep in meaningful situations it’s JMike and that’s because when he’s on he can nail them off the dribble (not dependent on him receiving the ball wide open). But even there - it’s not going to be enough to win games.

Francis doesn’t take that many “long” 2s. His 4-5 foot floater / runner is more efficient than most guys on our teams rate of success at the rim by a wide margin. Not only that - but he uses the threat of that to fake out defenders and get his finger roll lay ups at the rim. He has a fairly large portfolio of shots that he takes in the paint. And Francis also draws a ton of fouls off of those so called mid range attempts which come off the shot selection chart I believe.

But if the implied suggestion is that the key to winning more games would be more volume of 3s by Zrno and Powers and less of Francis doing his thing in penetration - that chart will look nicer but we most certainly will not win more.

It’s the larger point is the shot chart is awful because the roster assembled is awful. Pikes teams shot charts look like that because of who he recruits, what he teaches, and he awful non iso offense.

If you construct the right roster and run an effective offense your shot chart will look much different.

Francis makes mid range because he had to learn to make those shots to be effective since he is too small.
He is effective drawing fouls against bad teams but is completely ineffective against power 4 talent. Young man is a good iso player but he is limited and not a power 4 player. Possible a 7/8 man off the bench tl leverage ig the match up allows it.

 

[bac2therac]

yes that's correct you normal posts are whining about posters accepting mediocrity, or whining that you told everyone we'd be bad and some posters didn't listen to you or whining about how Pike doesn't seem to know the first thing about coaching, even though he has a head coaching job in a top 2 conference in the country.

so let's just agree that you Chat GPT'd the s*it out of this message and keep it moving...

or you can show me how little i know and start actually posting real basketball content and opinions and join the few of us who like to discuss stuff besides the "Pike sucks. Pike is lazy. Pike can't identify talent. Pike doesn't practice offense. The game has passed Pike by" nonsense that is 90% of what is said around here.

The chart is proof

 

[dark_check]

yes that's correct you normal posts are whining about posters accepting mediocrity, or whining that you told everyone we'd be bad and some posters didn't listen to you or whining about how Pike doesn't seem to know the first thing about coaching, even though he has a head coaching job in a top 2 conference in the country.

so let's just agree that you Chat GPT'd the s*it out of this message and keep it moving...

or you can show me how little i know and start actually posting real basketball content and opinions and join the few of us who like to discuss stuff besides the "Pike sucks. Pike is lazy. Pike can't identify talent. Pike doesn't practice offense. The game has passed Pike by" nonsense that is 90% of what is said around here.

Thank you for comparing my brain to chat gtp, quite the compliment. You know you really are a piece of work. Why I engage with you is beyond me. But I’ll be blocking you for my peace of mind. You ask me for Xs and Os. I give them to you. You still want to fight and insult. While a majority of my posts have been negative lately I’ll ask, what has been positive about the program? It’s a message board and I post my opinions. If you don’t like them don’t read them. I don’t insult you personally or challenge your knowledge (but I am starting to wonder about it). I just want RU to be better. I wish you well since this is the last of our interaction. You know in person we probably could have some nice chats, but you proved you don’t know a thing about me and chose board nastiness.

 

[FAT MOON]

Thank you for comparing my brain to chat gtp, quite the compliment. You know you really are a piece of work. Why I engage with you is beyond me. But I’ll be blocking you for my peace of mind. You ask me for Xs and Os. I give them to you. You still want to fight and insult. While a majority of my posts have been negative lately I’ll ask, what has been positive about the program? It’s a message board and I post my opinions. If you don’t like them don’t read them. I don’t insult you personally or challenge your knowledge (but I am starting to wonder about it). I just want RU to be better. I wish you well since this is the last of our interaction. You know in person we probably could have some nice chats, but you proved you don’t know a thing about me and chose board nastiness.

damn bro...my b

i would've thought someone who is so critical of a B1G coaching staff post after post after post and accuses them of not understanding modern basketball would be able to take one or two posts criticizing their own coaching abilities and understanding of the game.

thought maybe we could get into actual things you think Pike should be doing with this team other than the shoot more 3s and layups talk we get from most. like actual Xs and Os talk as opposed to just listing basketball defenses, drills and offensive charts.

again, i do agree with you that it's year 10 and there isn't a ton to be excited about with this program. i also agree it will (baring a huge turnaround next year) be time to make a change. i'm just not on that "let's insult the best basketball coach (by a lot) that has ever been at RU in my lifetime" by saying he doesn't know how to coach or is lazy or have given up or all that nonsense. i know better...

unfortunately i'm on ignore now so you'll never see my apology. real shame...

 

[RUskoolie]

Its a decade of it, not just one season

Oh I don't disagree but given the lack of NIL and the arguably poor talent evaluation with putting a roster together thats why it's even more prevalent this year. It's a bad team. I am guessing Pike stays and the staff gets a shake up with an NIL infusion and we see what that looks like next year.