Rules Question..

[57stratdawg]

It's 3rd and 5 from the opp's 8 yard line (8 yards to score). Defense jumps off side. Is it 3rd and 1 or a 1st down?

 

[drt7891]

3rd and 1. Only penalties that result in an automatic 1st down

give you a first down. That's the case in high school, anyway... those are the only rules I really know (and by know, I mean have studied in depth)

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

give you a first down. That's the case in high school, anyway... those are the only rules I really know (and by know, I mean have studied in depth)

Uh, no. You can get a first down with a 3rd and less than 5. It's equivalent to having gained 5 yards on the play. Automatic first down plays have the feature of resetting the down and distance. So even if you're at 4th and 40 and have a 5 yard defensive holding penalty called, it becomes 1st and 10.

You can have 3rd and 5 go to 3rd and 1, but it's a case where you have 3rd and "5 plus a little extra so we'll just call it 5" go to a 3rd and "a little bit so we'll just call it 1"

 

[Lawdawg.sixpack]

In the example, it is still 3rd and 1, because it's half the distance on the 5 yard encroachment penalty. So ball on 4 now instead of 8.

 

[57stratdawg]

So, the offense gets punished a bit? If that happens at midfield it's a 1st down.

 

[aerodawg.sixpack]

I believe you have it right. It is 3rd and 1 because the down and distance is based on where the ball is placed, not where it would go. It really is no different than 3rd and Goal with the same situation. At least that is the NFL rule. I would assume College ball would be the same because that doesn't seem like a rule that really would be interesting enough to differ from league to league.

 

[msudawg12]

that is correct.

half the distance to the goal. down to the 4. 3rd and 1

 

[drt7891]

Um... Yep. I can't answer for college because I have not read the rule book, but in high school, it would be 3rd and 1 from the 4.

I've officiated high school ball for 3+ years now, so I'm not making this up. Only penalties noted as resulting in an automatic first down give you a first down in that situation. All others replay the down unless the yard to gain is reached via the penalty.

I guess it I worth noting, though, no play happens in high school ball because the ball immediately becomes dead during any neutral zone infraction, offensive or defensive (whole nuther argument there... Was it petal that lost on a missed field goal in the state championship a few years ago because of this rule?).

 

[Cousin Jeffrey]

I've never understood that. In any "half the distance to the goal line" penalty, the penalized team isn't getting fully penalized (and, on the other hand, the other team isn't gaining the full benefit of the other team's error). Why? Because you happen to be close to the goal line. I don't like that. Granted, you can't mark off a 10 yard penalty if you've only got 6 yards. But if you can step off the full penalty, I think the rules should allow it.

 

[seb304]

Isn't the NFL rule that you have to have 2x the penalty yardage or it's half the distance? I think I remember that.

 

[saltslugs]

So what would you suggest?

I've never understood that. In any "half the distance to the goal line" penalty, the penalized team isn't getting fully penalized (and, on the other hand, the other team isn't gaining the full benefit of the other team's error). Why? Because you happen to be close to the goal line. I don't like that. Granted, you can't mark off a 10 yard penalty if you've only got 6 yards. But if you can step off the full penalty, I think the rules should allow it.

It's third down the the opponent's 4 yard line. The defense commits and offsides penalty. Would you prefer an automatic touchdown in this scenario?

 

[TXDawg.sixpack]

It's third down the the opponent's 4 yard line. The defense commits and offsides penalty. Would you prefer an automatic touchdown in this scenario?

The ball should be placed on the goal line - just like defensive pass interference in the end zone.

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

Ah, I forgot to read the from the 8 part. Stoopid me.

 

[drt7891]

Disagree. No penalty can or should result in more than half the distance to the goal (except pass interference in the endzone in the nfl goes to the 1 yard line... I still don't like that rule). I guarantee you it's much easier to score from the 4 yard line than the 8 yard line, so that's plenty of advantage, in my opinion. No penalty can or should result in a score, either, regardless of the infraction.

 

[patdog]

I think they should make an exception for a personal foul penalty. There's no difference if you jump offside at the 6-yard line or take a real dirty cheap shot at someone.

 

[TXDawg.sixpack]

I think they should make an exception for a personal foul penalty. There's no difference if you jump offside at the 6-yard line or take a real dirty cheap shot at someone.

Most (if not all) personal fouls are automatic first downs. So, in the case of 3rd and Goal from the 4, if there's a personal foul penalty called, the ball would be spotted at the 2 (half the distance to the goal); automatic first down. Therefore the next down would be 1st and Goal from the 2.

 

[maroondog]

In High School it use to be, that if a team continued making penalties that enforcement is half the distance to the goal line, and the team is making a travesty of the rules. the officials can award a score!
I'm sure there is something similar in NCAA.

 

[drt7891]

Correct. Also, unsportsmanlike fouls are treated like technicals in basketball... 2 and you are gone (including the coach).

 

[drt7891]

No penalty can result in a score, ever. If the game is too much a travesty, a "forced forfeit" would take place, but no scores are ever awarded for penalties, even if it is excessive. All that would result is asymptotically spotting the ball closer and closer to the goal line.

 

[RocketDawg]

Perhaps in a the case cited, they should make it 1st and goal from the 4. That might be the fairest thing. But as someone else mentioned, it should never be an automatic TD.

 

[RocketDawg]

Disagree. No penalty can or should result in more than half the distance to the goal (except pass interference in the endzone in the nfl goes to the 1 yard line... I still don't like that rule). I guarantee you it's much easier to score from the 4 yard line than the 8 yard line, so that's plenty of advantage, in my opinion. No penalty can or should result in a score, either, regardless of the infraction.

It used to be that way in college ball too. I don't remember when they changed it, but it was probably longer ago than I remember.

What the college rule does is make the penalty less penal, and in some cases actually encourages pass interference. For example, if the receiver is going to catch the ball and make a long run, or is already more than 15 yards past the line of scrimmage, then it's better to commit pass interference than it is to let him catch the ball. That would not be the case if the ball was placed on the 1, as it is in the NFL. I'm not sure why they changed the rule in college.

 

[Sutterkane]

You know nothing Jon Snow.

Ever? You sure about that? I give you Bama at the '54 Cotton Bowl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Cotton_Bowl_Classic

 

[patdog]

Offensive holding in the end zone is a safety.

 

[drt7891]

I guess I should have clarified... no penalty can advance the offense to a score. The reason holding results in a safety is it is enforced from the basic spot. If the basic spot is in a team's own endzone, the ball becomes dead there resulting in a safety. I should have clarified.

 

[saltslugs]

What if there is another penalty on the next play?

The ball should be placed on the goal line - just like defensive pass interference in the end zone.

What if there is another penalty on the next play?