Nobody predicted that Palmquist would score 8-10 ppg or said that he was the best all around offensive player in the roster.
Rothstein at practice
- Thread starter MLBash93
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Do you think Palmquist and Jones are starting at the same level? Once the 2019/2020 season ended, the pandemic shut down basketball-related operations until a few weeks before the start of the next season. Palmquist suffered because of this issue. Jones hasn't face that same restriction. Also, Jones is more skilled, so he's starting with a higher floor with a higher ceiling. You're not comparing apples to apples in this case.
No my point is that enrolling in January seemed to make no difference for Palmquist so why would it for Jones? I think Jones is going to be very productive but him enrolling in January has nothing to do with that.
You don’t think enrolling a semester early makes a difference? I don’t know what to tell you then.
The reports during the spring semester were glowing, but Palmquist didn't continue his development once workouts were canceled by the summer. Palmquist was at a disadvantage because of this. Jones hasn't had to experience the same problems this summer. You failed to mention this one difference. And don't forget Jones is a more skilled player. Jones' ceiling is much higher, and so is his starting point (floor).
True. But Jones came in with much more hype as a 4 star and apparently has put on some muscle. We shall see.
No, I don't. I think that players are pretty much going to be whatever they're going to be. The effect, if there is one, is almost certainly not big enough to matter very much.
Do you understand when you miss time in highly skilled sports, it does impact your ability to grow as a player. I played with Deion Figures (Jim Thorpe Award winner-best DB in college football) at Colorado. One year he was suspended during spring ball. When he returned in the fall, he looked like sh*t. He was pulled from the starting lineup. It took to the middle of the season to get back to the playing level everyone expected from him. That time off impacted his growth (IQ) of the game, his physical development, and his rapport with teammates.
You can’t compare Jones and Palmquist. Jones should’ve been a top 50 recruit.
Still not my point. Palmquist enrolled early, Reiber did not. Both were roughly around the same development level. Being here in the spring does not seem to have helped Palmquist's development compared to Reiber. There is seemingly no effect.
A willful misreading of my point. I think Jones will be very good and my opinion would not be different if he hadn't been on campus until June or July.
So because of palmquist we should never bring anyone else in early. You always make generalizations off one data point?
Could that be different skills levels for players at different positions? Also, Palmquist played overseas and may need extra time to adjust to a different style of ball. The fact remains, we are talking Palmquist and Jones.
No I'm saying it almost certainly doesn't make a noticeable difference one way or the other. Early enrollees are a relatively recent thing so there's not much of a track record. I'm also basing my opinion off the fact that players reclassifying does not seem to do much for their development.
so players come in - and they just are what they are? Eugene O (who could barely dribble his first year) didnt develop AT ALL in his time here? Ron Harper is the exact same player he was his first semester? Caleb (again - total deer in the headlights at the beginning) hasnt developed? Myles Johnson (redshirted since he was so darn raw) didnt develop in his time here?
to summarize your points: (1) an extra semester and summer practicing, weight-lifting, etc. would have no benefit because players just are what they are ; and (2) your evidence of this is a single data point - Oscar (who btw, only has 1 year under his belt here). WOW. well done!
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Counterpoint. Jacob Young at UT:
16.4mpg/3.7ppg/28.7 FG%/22.7 3FG%
16.8mpg/6.2ppg/41.3 FG%/32.3 3FG%
Both Young and Hyatt were 4* recruits who didn't seem to maximize their abilities at their first college stops. Coach Pikiell did a heck of a job (imo) getting Young to play to his strengths (speed, defense, opportunistic/aggressive scorer) while improving his weaknesses (tendency to play [very] out of control, limiting forced/rushed 3 point shooting). I think Hyatt can become a pretty darn good player here.
This would mean that the dozens of other programs that do the enrollment early are seeing no results?? How do we know Palmquist may not have been even further behind, if he didn't enroll early??
I am not a fan of reliance on stars or player rankings, once you get outside of the Top 150 to 200 range. I think once you get to the 175 to 200 to the 300 to 350 range, the scouting and development is not as precise.
Jones is a significantly better player from the time he arrived, vs today. Maybe if he didn't arrive until after Memorial Day weekend instead of January, he doesn't practice with the team, learn the mechanics on how to travel to and from games, the entire training and conditioning is all enhanced when you are getting a 5 month headstart.
wrong.
kcg88 is correct - players come out of the womb fully developed.
it is simply absurd to think that getting a 5 month headstart would be any benefit.
what possible good could come from:
- practicing with a college coaching staff for 5 months,
- having 5 extra months to become accustomed to the speed of the game,
- getting 5 months of strength training with a college coaching staff,
- getting 5 months to learn the plays and learn about your team (what each player can/ cant do, what their respective roles, abilities and responsibilities are)
- having an extra semester to get used to the grind of balancing school/ basketball responsibilities
after all, players are what they are.
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Do you think a player who signed his LOI is not being given workouts by the coaching staff to complete? What sort of practice was Jaden Jones getting here? He wasn't in the rotation so he was with the scout team most likely. Steve Pikiell and the rest of the coaching staff have a road trip to Michigan coming up, you think they're spending meaningful practice time on a non-rotation player? Practice time in-season is a precious commodity. He got accustomed to the speed of the game? What does that even mean?
I'm not saying it's a negative. My hypothesis is that whatever positive benefits exist are very unlikely to show up in a meaningful way. There were a lot of early enrollees last season, I look forward to my hypothesis being tested.
I'm not saying it's a negative. My hypothesis is that whatever positive benefits exist are very unlikely to show up in a meaningful way. There were a lot of early enrollees last season, I look forward to my hypothesis being tested.
Jones was rated much much higher than Palmquist and has already added on about 20 pounds of muscle. I think Jones will be a very good contributor. He seems to be very confident as well.
This is not at all a counterpoint to my comments. If anything it supports the point I was making as JY didn’t start and played 21ish mpg his first year with RU (he didn’t shoot well from the perimeter that year either) Nowhere did I say that I don’t think Hyatt will contribute or even that he can’t become very good if not by the end of next year certainly over several seasons at RU.
What I said was that at this point, nothing about Hyatt’s game at LSU screams out that based on it he should be a slam dunk to jump right into the starting line up on opening day over Paul or Caleb. That was true for JY his first year and he didn’t actually start for us then. This in no way means Hyatt can’t or hasn’t developed but maybe our returning guys have too. That’s all.
This can't be a serious post.
The appropriate way to test your hypotheseis is to look at a statistically significant dataset.
That Palmquist didn’t benefit has absolutely nothing to do with Jones. I can’t believe that an additional three plus months of training, conditioning and coaching wouldn’t be of benefit to most players. Exactly how that translates in terms of production for any player is obviously an open question.
actually - we as fans have absolutely no way of knowing that it "didn't benefit" Palmquist. absolutely no idea.
however, I cant imagine (for the various reasons in my post above) how it couldnt be a benefit. of course, its a good help. using the Palmquist example - the ONLY thing we can GUESS is that it wasnt ENOUGH to result in him having a significant impact last year (his FIRST YEAR btw). other than that - we have NO IDEA the degree to which it helped (or didnt).
The biggest benefit of Jones enrolling early is he's already jumped up 25 pounds in our S&C program with direct contact with our S&C staff, which he wouldn't have had access to in HS other than a list of things they wanted him to work on.
Reps also matter. The more reps a player gets within the system he'll be playing in, and with the players he'll be playing with, the better - whether that's practice reps or game reps. Another thing he wouldn't have gotten in HS.
Comparison to Palmquist is silly - because Jones are Palmquist are entirely different players at different positions with different skillsets. It's impossible to have a "control group" here, either, because we don't get to see what Jones or Palmquist would have been like if they hadn't enrolled early.
Reps also matter. The more reps a player gets within the system he'll be playing in, and with the players he'll be playing with, the better - whether that's practice reps or game reps. Another thing he wouldn't have gotten in HS.
Comparison to Palmquist is silly - because Jones are Palmquist are entirely different players at different positions with different skillsets. It's impossible to have a "control group" here, either, because we don't get to see what Jones or Palmquist would have been like if they hadn't enrolled early.
The idea that spending six months in a high school basketball program is the same as spending six months in a college basketball program is silly. There is zero comparison between the two. Zero.
I fear your solid logic will be lost on a few here but you are 100% right - there is literally no way to prove this one way or the other.
but anyone who has played sports (at any level) or even anyone who watches sports to any degree should be able to understand that enrolling a semester early: can only help, that the degree to which it helps would certainly vary player to player, and that the benefit may show earlier with some players than with others.
And don't forget Jones' training hasn't been interrupted by Covid. After the spring semester, Palmquist training came to a halt because of this pandemic. Palmquist hasn't received the same amount of reps or S&C as Jones.
Don’t forget, Jones has had a head start on learning those 21 inbounds plays. That has to account for SOMETHING in his development.
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Seriously, though, it’s absurd to think that an extra 5 to 6 months in the program WON’T help Jones.
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Seriously, though, it’s absurd to think that an extra 5 to 6 months in the program WON’T help Jones.
I believe one of those plays is, “throw it at the other guy’s legs to avoid a 5 second violation and preserve a timeout.”
Palmquist didn't even get the full spring. Everything shut down in mid-March, half way through the semester. Seemed like the guys went to the homes of the other local guys for awhile.
When were they even allowed back on campus? June?
To test your hypothesis (that a head start doesn't help), we would need to do more than look at one player (Palmquist) and then generalize to all players. This is not a reasonable generalization: Palmquist came early and he wasn't good. Therefore, an early start won't help with any other player.
And you are creating a ludicrous strawman where it either makes no difference, or it makes any player who gets it a good player. Nobody here is saying that a 5 month head start will make any player good. That's not the hypothesis that any other person on this board is suggesting but you. A bad player might improve from 5 months of work and still overall be a bad player, even though they improved. People are saying it makes a difference. A bad player with a 5 month head start is still a bad player. And a 1 and done lottery pick is still a great player, even if they would have been better with more practices and experience.
So back to reality, Jones is billed as a very good player. And the thing that freshmen good players need to live up to their potential is experience. A 5 month head start seems, DUH, to be something that would help a player like Jones be able to have an impact this year.
I don’t really know what a High School player does. Is he playing AAU basketball and getting in games? Can Jaden Jones play AAU? Does AAU hurt more than it helps?
I get the S & C, but these days it appears that so many males are already going to the gym and working out on their own. I could be looking thru the lens of an affluent neighborhood with access to gyms.
I am sure it is a case by case basis. My initial hypothesis is that the extra 6 months has little to some benefit. Obviously I need to be armed with more data to confirm or reject my initial hypothesis.
I get the S & C, but these days it appears that so many males are already going to the gym and working out on their own. I could be looking thru the lens of an affluent neighborhood with access to gyms.
I am sure it is a case by case basis. My initial hypothesis is that the extra 6 months has little to some benefit. Obviously I need to be armed with more data to confirm or reject my initial hypothesis.
A little off topic but this is exactly why NBA teams value freshman over seniors.
3 years in an NBA program over 3 years in a college program.
Devil's advocate ONLY!
Big difference between playing in games, albeit HS vs. playing 12 minutes in garbage time..
Last year was obviously very different. In another year, a kid would be giving up a real high school season of playing to enroll early, wouldn’t they? I think, in normal years, there’s an argument that it depends on the kid as well as the experience the kid had already through their junior season.
The conditioning is definitely more involved at the college level which is important. On the other hand, just as sometimes playing big minutes on a JV team is more beneficial to riding the bench in varsity, argument can be made that playing tons of minutes in a live game that counts at the high school level could be more helpful to some kids than playing scout for college. I think it depends.
I think the extra time is even more valuable with a "raw" player that might not have had access to quailty coaching. A 7 foot guy who has never been taught a drop step. Not sure in today's world there is such a thing of that scenario.