Redshirting vs not redshirting

[uberism1111]

I've seen people on the various message boards having dumb back and forth discussions about whether players should be redshirting or not. It's simply mindblowing how some people don't understand why the majority of incoming college football players at the P5 level redshirt.

1: Most young men coming to college are NOT ready physically or mentally for the college game. It's not the fault of high school coaches or parents. It's a massive jump from high school to P5 level of football. They need to adjust to the speed of the college game, the complexities of playbooks, technique always needs developing, and most need to either shed fat and put on muscle weight, some need to get stronger, and some need to add good weight so they don't get killed out there. Even Wandale being here for spring ball wasn't ready to see the field game 1 this year and his short game is arguably one of the best, if not the best among all true freshman skill players in the country.

2: Academics. There is always an adjustment period.

3: Long-term value over short-term satisfaction

When you don't redshirt a player, you are robbing them of a full year of development. Unless a player is elite coming out of high school, they need to redshirt.

Notable Redshirts
Andrew Luck
Michael Vick
Marcus Mariota
Jameis Winston
Michael Crabtree
Clay Matthews
Dwyane Wade
Emmanuel Sanders
Brett Hundley
Larry Bird
JJ Watt
I could easily list hundreds and hundreds of other names too.

People just need to chill and let the coaches develop the roster the right way. Quick fixes are not going to make any difference in getting us to 6 or 7 wins this season.

 

[otismotis08]

I've seen people on the various message boards having dumb back and forth discussions about whether players should be redshirting or not. It's simply mindblowing how some people don't understand why the majority of incoming college football players at the P5 level redshirt.

1: Most young men coming to college are NOT ready physically or mentally for the college game. It's not the fault of high school coaches or parents. It's a massive jump from high school to P5 level of football. They need to adjust to the speed of the college game, the complexities of playbooks, technique always needs developing, and most need to either shed fat and put on muscle weight, some need to get stronger, and some need to add good weight so they don't get killed out there. Even Wandale being here for spring ball wasn't ready to see the field game 1 this year and his short game is arguably one of the best, if not the best among all true freshman skill players in the country.

2: Academics. There is always an adjustment period.

3: Long-term value over short-term satisfaction

When you don't redshirt a player, you are robbing them of a full year of development. Unless a player is elite coming out of high school, they need to redshirt.

Notable Redshirts
Andrew Luck
Michael Vick
Marcus Mariota
Jameis Winston
Michael Crabtree
Clay Matthews
Dwyane Wade
Emmanuel Sanders
Brett Hundley
Larry Bird
JJ Watt
I could easily list hundreds and hundreds of other names too.

People just need to chill and let the coaches develop the roster the right way. Quick fixes are not going to make any difference in getting us to 6 or 7 wins this season.

OK.

And, even easier, you could probably come up with a list of successful players who did not redshirt.

I get your argument, though.

 

[John_J_Rambo]

Redshirt them, keep them engaged, get them ready to contribute next year.

The 4-game redshirt rule is perhaps the only thing the NCAA has done with athletes in mind, and has changed the strategy for head coaches looking to build a program.

There's not a whole lot of difference between 8-4, 7-5 or 6-6 this year. It certainly can make a whole lot of difference giving a kid an extra year in the program, however.

It's not easy in the moment, but if sacrificing a few meaningless Ws in 2019 means gaining a few meaningful Ws down the road, I'm all for it.

 

[mpbrown27]

I agree that player development needs to be a focal point of this program, but there also needs to be a way to effectively churn non-contributing players. It's one thing to redshirt a guy who can develop into a starter or a capable back-up, but it's another thing to carry a non-contributer for five years. Further, Nebraska needs as many opportunities as possible to discover difference makers. This means having scholarships available for large recruiting classes each year. Redshirting makes this challenging.

 

[jlb321_rivals110621]

Is there data showing that most freshman redshirt? I’m sure the percentage will increase with the 4 game rule but I seem to remember something several years ago stating that there has been a trend toward less and less redshirting.

 

[dand84]

I would think you would want to redshirt most freshman just because the guys ahead are better But of course that isn't the program we have today.

 

[jeans15]

My thing is if we are supposed to be rebuilding why are we playing people who won't even be here as much

Take your lumps and find out who can play.

The fanbase would understand that instead of watching the same players make the same mistakes and efforts 3 years in a row.

Sorry thats ridiculous to me

 

[jlb321_rivals110621]

2014 article - downtrend in redshirting -
I'm not sure the notion of not redshirting most of your freshman is "mindblowing"

perhaps high a percentage of freshman redshirting should prompt a reexamination of your recruiting results

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...hirting-in-college-football-trending-downward

 

[jlb321_rivals110621]

redshirted starters: - as best I could tell from depth charts

Alabama - 3/22
LSU - 5/22
Clemson - 3/22
OU - 11/22
Mich - 2/22
Minnesota - 12/22
OSU - 11/22
Iowa 12/22
Wisconsin - 15/22

 

[John_J_Rambo]

redshirted starters: - as best I could tell from depth charts

Alabama - 3/22
LSU - 5/22
Clemson - 3/22
OU - 11/22
Mich - 2/22
OsU - 11/22
Minnesota - 12/22
OSU - 11/22
Iowa 12/22
Wisconsin - 15/22

Teams that land 5+ 5-stars per year: no need to redshirt

Everyone else: redshirt as many as you can

 

[jlb321_rivals110621]

Teams that land 5+ 5-stars per year: no need to redshirt

Everyone else: redshirt as many as you can

don't disagree - but it looks like even in the non-elite programs the ratio is around 50%
far from the "mindblowing" notion that most freshman need redshirting presented by the OP

 

[SeaOfRed75]

Does Bird even count?
Did he really redshirt? Or was that year "redshirting" when he left IU went to some French Lick technical institute then finally ended up at Indiana State for 3 years?

 

[TheBeav815]

Most of your class should be redshirting every year. I just can't justify burning shirts on guys with this season in the state it's in. We're not looking at competing for a conference title, this is a "progress" year where a step forward will be measured in making a bowl and moving a couple ticks forward on your W-L ratio.

The payoff isn't there in terms of what you get out of burning a guy's shirt right now.

If Mo doesn't come back and the two suspended guys end up off the team that's 9 guys out of 22 in the 2018 class gone after this year:

Mo Washington
Greg Bell
Cam'ron Jones
C.J. Smith
Justin McGriff
Jaron Woodyard (will graduate)
Mike Williams (will graduate)
Andre Hunt (currently suspended)
Katerion Legrone (currently suspended)

41% of the class gone by their Rs-Soph year with only two by graduation. That's on the heels of the attrition from 2015-2017 that I've banged like a drum on this board.

You need to start building up depth by taking big classes and redshirting whoever you can. At some point you have to hit the brakes on the excuse train of "we don't have enough guys worthy of a P5 scholarship on our roster."

2019 was a step in the right direction for recruiting and roster management. They need to take as many guys as they can this year.

 

[John_J_Rambo]

don't disagree - but it looks like even in the non-elite programs the ratio is around 50%
far from the "mindblowing" notion that most freshman need redshirting presented by the OP

Eh, kind of. To think most freshmen would be better off redshirting and also have the transcendent talents or high need/low depth positions not redshirt can both be true.

As always, the cream rises to the top, whether it's year 1 or later.

 

[jeans15]

Most of your class should be redshirting every year. I just can't justify burning shirts on guys with this season in the state it's in. We're not looking at competing for a conference title, this is a "progress" year where a step forward will be measured in making a bowl and moving a couple ticks forward on your W-L ratio.

The payoff isn't there in terms of what you get out of burning a guy's shirt right now.

If Mo doesn't come back and the two suspended guys end up off the team that's 9 guys out of 22 in the 2018 class gone after this year:

Mo Washington
Greg Bell
Cam'ron Jones
C.J. Smith
Justin McGriff
Jaron Woodyard (will graduate)
Mike Williams (will graduate)
Andre Hunt (currently suspended)
Katerion Legrone (currently suspended)

41% of the class gone by their Rs-Soph year with only two by graduation. That's on the heels of the attrition from 2015-2017 that I've banged like a drum on this board.

You need to start building up depth by taking big classes and redshirting whoever you can. At some point you have to hit the brakes on the excuse train of "we don't have enough guys worthy of a P5 scholarship on our roster."

2019 was a step in the right direction for recruiting and roster management. They need to take as many guys as they can this year.

You arent taking a step forward if your primary players are people who won't be here and have been unsuccessful while here.

 

[nwualum_rivals330058]

Problem is, most of these kids come to school thinking they are destined for the NFL and won’t be here longer than 3-4 years anyway. Not sure what you can do about that.

 

[oldjar07]

Problem is, most of these kids come to school thinking they are destined for the NFL and won’t be here longer than 3-4 years anyway. Not sure what you can do about that.

Suh redshirted. It's not uncommon for very good or even great players to redshirt their first year. Some teams have a culture of not redshirting their players and that's fine for them. I don't think that's the right answer at Nebraska. We don't recruit at the level of Alabama or Ohio State to have a bunch of freshman ready to see the field right away.

 

[Husker4real_rivals373787]

Does the bowl game count as part of the 4 games?

Regardless, I get the impression that NU will start rolling out more true Freshmen when they have 4 or fewer games remaining.

 

[TheBeav815]

Does the bowl game count as part of the 4 games?

Regardless, I get the impression that NU will start rolling out more true Freshmen when they have 4 or fewer games remaining.

I believe a bowl does count as one of the 4.

 

[dand84]

Like anything else, there is a cost/benefit to every decision. Short term gain versus long term gain or cost. So to judge what they are doing, we have to know their criteria which might be very different from ours as fans.

 

[Husker4real_rivals373787]

I think we will need to win at least 1 of the last 4 to make a bowl game. We’ll need to treat it like baseball expanding their rosters on 9/1. All hands on deck. Save the redshirt, but play everybody.

 

[John_J_Rambo]

I think we will need to win at least 1 of the last 4 to make a bowl game. We’ll need to treat it like baseball expanding their rosters on 9/1. All hands on deck. Save the redshirt, but play everybody.

checks out

 

[uberism1111]

I agree that player development needs to be a focal point of this program, but there also needs to be a way to effectively churn non-contributing players. It's one thing to redshirt a guy who can develop into a starter or a capable back-up, but it's another thing to carry a non-contributer for five years. Further, Nebraska needs as many opportunities as possible to discover difference makers. This means having scholarships available for large recruiting classes each year. Redshirting makes this challenging.

If they aren't significant contributors by their 3rd year they need to walk off that practice field and into the transfer portal. I see Frost as a guy that isn't afraid to show players the door that aren't accomplishing anything.

 

[uberism1111]

Is there data showing that most freshman redshirt? I’m sure the percentage will increase with the 4 game rule but I seem to remember something several years ago stating that there has been a trend toward less and less redshirting.

Most still redshirt and the 4 year role has helped coaches get a feel if someone is ready to be on that field or not. Some coaches, like the PSU head coach, doesn't want to play freshman. Saban will play freshman but they tend to be high 4-stars or 5-stars with body ready.

Michigan has been trying to play freshman and it hasn't done them any good.

While it was great to have Martinez starting as a true freshman, we never want to see that again during the Frost era. You want the depth - young guys learn the offense, get the reps. Older guys lead the team to wins.

 

[TheBeav815]

If they aren't significant contributors by their 3rd year they need to walk off that practice field and into the transfer portal. I see Frost as a guy that isn't afraid to show players the door that aren't accomplishing anything.

That's a bit broad-brushed but not totally off base. Just depends on your definition of "contributors."

In a perfect world, you'd like to see most of your two deep consisting of juniors and seniors who came to Lincoln on scholarship.

 

[RealTucoSalamanca]

I posted this in another thread, but after reading this thread, it appears that this is a better place for my thoughts.....

Here is my opinion. I hope by the time that Lynn, Banks and Anderson are in their 3rd year, that there are 3 guys younger than them that come in and beat them out. Then we can have 3 "old" dudes that are good enough to be backups and not just starting because they are RS Jr or RS Sr's.

I have written my opinion on RS many times. My best explanation was as a member of another site and I can't seem to locate how I wrote it. But it goes something like this.

Numbers are the key. You have to figure out a way to cycle out enough non contributing players in 4 years or less so that you can continue to recruit 25 players every year. If you redshirt every freshman, you will never get to that point. You will only be able recruit 18-21 players per year. So what happens is that you find yourself sitting with noncontributing players on your roster, with nothing but the hope that they will be productive as RS Jrs and RS Srs. My opinion is that is a silly way to manage a roster.

To me I would only redshirt walkons, and guys I took a flyer on.

My theory is this:

if a guy is a high 4 star or 5 star player, I am not redshirting because if he is as good as advertised, he won't be here all 5 years. If he is not as good as advertised, I want him to just use his 4 years and be gone so another scholarship opens up in 4 years rather than 5.

If a player is a mid- high 3 star to 4 star, I am not redshirting because, IF I do my job as a recruiter, I replace that same level player with at least that same level player every year. Also, if I do my job as a developmental coach, I can get the next player to be as good as the one before him.

If a guy is unranked to a mid 3 star, I would probably redshirt because I saw an undeveloped talent that I am not giving a scholarship to or a player that I can develop enough to provide depth when they are Jrs and Srs. But, again, if I am doing my job as a recruiter, the number of scholarships should be low.

Each year there are, on average, 40-44 players that see any significant playing time. Turning the roster over and doing my best to replace the departing player with a better player is my job as a coach.

If I am able to recruit 25 per year, I get 100 guys per 4 year cycle, If I redshirt a majority of every class, I only get to 68-80 over the same period, depending on attrition. The more players you can sign, the better chance you have of finding more difference makers.

Good discussion

 

[uberism1111]

I couldn't care less what a star rating is to determine if one redshirts. It's all about where they are when they arrive to campus. If they are ready and can produce then play. If not they need to redshirt.

Recruiting 100 players every 4 years is not hard at all. Average 5 attrition a year and you can hit 100.

 

[inWV]

I posted this in another thread, but after reading this thread, it appears that this is a better place for my thoughts.....

Here is my opinion. I hope by the time that Lynn, Banks and Anderson are in their 3rd year, that there are 3 guys younger than them that come in and beat them out. Then we can have 3 "old" dudes that are good enough to be backups and not just starting because they are RS Jr or RS Sr's.

I have written my opinion on RS many times. My best explanation was as a member of another site and I can't seem to locate how I wrote it. But it goes something like this.

Numbers are the key. You have to figure out a way to cycle out enough non contributing players in 4 years or less so that you can continue to recruit 25 players every year. If you redshirt every freshman, you will never get to that point. You will only be able recruit 18-21 players per year. So what happens is that you find yourself sitting with noncontributing players on your roster, with nothing but the hope that they will be productive as RS Jrs and RS Srs. My opinion is that is a silly way to manage a roster.

To me I would only redshirt walkons, and guys I took a flyer on.

My theory is this:

if a guy is a high 4 star or 5 star player, I am not redshirting because if he is as good as advertised, he won't be here all 5 years. If he is not as good as advertised, I want him to just use his 4 years and be gone so another scholarship opens up in 4 years rather than 5.

If a player is a mid- high 3 star to 4 star, I am not redshirting because, IF I do my job as a recruiter, I replace that same level player with at least that same level player every year. Also, if I do my job as a developmental coach, I can get the next player to be as good as the one before him.

If a guy is unranked to a mid 3 star, I would probably redshirt because I saw an undeveloped talent that I am not giving a scholarship to or a player that I can develop enough to provide depth when they are Jrs and Srs. But, again, if I am doing my job as a recruiter, the number of scholarships should be low.

Each year there are, on average, 40-44 players that see any significant playing time. Turning the roster over and doing my best to replace the departing player with a better player is my job as a coach.

If I am able to recruit 25 per year, I get 100 guys per 4 year cycle, If I redshirt a majority of every class, I only get to 68-80 over the same period, depending on attrition. The more players you can sign, the better chance you have of finding more difference makers.

Good discussion

Increasingly leaning in this direction. If a freshman is good enough to be on the depth chart, they should be informed that a RS is not a lock. Did Frost really need to play Cam Taylor last year? If there was a year that was a write off, it was last year. No, the kid was ready, he was needed and he played. And in general, and especially with skill talent, you don’t know if/when the season ending injury will hit. Coaches could work to save a red shirt for a kid who could play only to see them get injured the next year with no red shirt available. So play them when they are ready, or when they are needed in a next man up situation.

 

[RealTucoSalamanca]

I couldn't care less what a star rating is to determine if one redshirts. It's all about where they are when they arrive to campus. If they are ready and can produce then play. If not they need to redshirt.

Recruiting 100 players every 4 years is not hard at all. Average 5 attrition a year and you can hit 100.

Then you can keep your Raridon's and Pernell Jefferson's for 5 years instead of 4. I'll rotate guys out as often as possible.

 

[RealTucoSalamanca]

Increasingly leaning in this direction. If a freshman is good enough to be on the depth chart, they should be informed that a RS is not a lock. Did Frost really need to play Cam Taylor last year? If there was a year that was a write off, it was last year. No, the kid was ready, he was needed and he played. And in general, and especially with skill talent, you don’t know if/when the season ending injury will hit. Coaches could work to save a red shirt for a kid who could play only to see them get injured the next year with no red shirt available. So play them when they are ready, or when they are needed in a next man up situation.

Thank you, I forgot that was a huge part of my post on the old site. There are times when we use the redshirt as a freshman then as a RS soph the player goes down with an injury. Now he is sitting 2 of the 3 years, and you are hoping he can contribute in years 4 and 5.

Thank you for seeing what I am saying.

 

[inWV]

Then you can keep your Raridon's and Pernell Jefferson's for 5 years instead of 4. I'll rotate guys out as often as possible.

The default will always be to RS with hope for development. But you are right, some coaches recruit a kid then watch him play some preseason practices and know the kid is not gonna work out. Heard a story about Jim Calhoun watching a kid he just signed the spring before play preseason practices and he was overheard saying I hope the kid hasn’t unpacked his bags.

 

[uberism1111]

Then you can keep your Raridon's and Pernell Jefferson's for 5 years instead of 4. I'll rotate guys out as often as possible.

Raridon would not be on my team next year. Neither would bradly. Neither would McQuity.

 

[RealTucoSalamanca]

Raridon would not be on my team next year. Neither would bradly. Neither would McQuity.

Great, but they will be on the Nebraska roster. Just like Jefferson, Neal, Anderson etc are this year. That is 3 additional freshmen or JUCO guys that could be on the squad that aren't.

 

[uberism1111]

Thank you, I forgot that was a huge part of my post on the old site. There are times when we use the redshirt as a freshman then as a RS soph the player goes down with an injury. Now he is sitting 2 of the 3 years, and you are hoping he can contribute in years 4 and 5.

Thank you for seeing what I am saying.

Taylor was a mid 3 star composite recruit that arrived to campus with the ability to play. He still had to get developed. Now he is a future Big Ten player.

 

[RealTucoSalamanca]

Taylor was a mid 3 star composite recruit that arrived to campus with the ability to play. He still had to get developed. Now he is a future Big Ten player.

UHhhhhhhh he didn't redshirt

 

[inWV]

Thank you, I forgot that was a huge part of my post on the old site. There are times when we use the redshirt as a freshman then as a RS soph the player goes down with an injury. Now he is sitting 2 of the 3 years, and you are hoping he can contribute in years 4 and 5.

Thank you for seeing what I am saying.

This gaming out of Rahmir’s games to preserve his RS is nonsense. Is he actually Co-2 with Belt and Wyatt? The guy can seize the backup spot now and play for the rest of the year and the next three years, possibly quite a bit. His upside is higher and he will get better every series he plays. If the season isn’t matching up to what we hoped, why not take the opportunity to build depth by getting reps when it matters instead of avoiding it.

 

[uberism1111]

Great, but they will be on the Nebraska roster. Just like Jefferson, Neal, Anderson etc are this year. That is 3 additional freshmen or JUCO guys that could be on the squad that aren't.

No, they would be in this years (how are you signing over 3) class attrition. Leading you from 16 to 21ish. If they are not producing by their 3rd year they get recruited out by the current class of that year. That is how you flip the roster to 100 in 4 years.

 

[RealTucoSalamanca]

No, they would be in this years (how are you signing over 3) class attrition. Leading you from 16 to 21ish. If they are not producing by their 3rd year they get recruited out by the current class of that year. That is how you flip the roster to 100 in 4 years.

Neal, Jefferson and Anderson are all playing this year and are in their 5th year in the program. Just like what Raridon, McQuitty and Bradley will be next year.

 

[inWV]

No, they would be in this years (how are you signing over 3) class attrition. Leading you from 16 to 21ish. If they are not producing by their 3rd year they get recruited out by the current class of that year. That is how you flip the roster to 100 in 4 years.

Don’t know the exact specs on conference rules re scholarships, but pretty sure a kid who is within team rules has the scholarship for 5 or until they graduate.
Scholly freshman kids who look like busts up front should not have RS offers. Pretty strong hint to move on.

 

[inWV]

Neal, Jefferson and Anderson are all playing this year and are in their 5th year in the program. Just like what Raridon, McQuitty and Bradley will be next year.

Chunky R yes (same class as elder Farniok and Wilson), the other 2 will be RS Jrs.