Question for the air raid haters

[Uncle Ruckus]

Someone asked this on t&l today
Vancleave sucks, right? Like historically bad. Like would still suck *** in the PAC-12. I think everyone can agree on that.
People who don’t think the air raid will work in the sec often say it’s the speed and talent on defense for the reason that it won’t work.
So, if Vandy is just hot, awful garbage, and arguably worse than an average P12 defense, which Mike Leach eventually had no problem throwing all over, wouldn’t that lend you to think that it IS a talent and execution issue? If Mike Leach is at Washington State in 2020 don’t you think he would destroyed Vandy? I don’t know if he is going to work out or not. But I really want him to be the guy. He does so many of the things that we’ve always begged for in a head coach that if he starts winning I think we will all fall back in love with him and the air raid

 

[Grove Sh*tter]

I just think you have to have SOME balance. If he's a student of The Art of War, he knows to be where your enemy does not expect you to be. It seems he ignores that principle.

 

[L4Dawg]

Good defenses will shut down one dimensional offenses. You at least have to have some threat of a run to at least them to pay some sort of lip service to defending it. The problem right now is we have BAD defenses shutting down a one dimensional offense.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

It seriously seems like this drop 8 zone is just killing him. He will need a huge influx of talent. The DLs in the SEC are what seem to be the difference in other leagues though. If we can’t pass block 3-4 guys we are Croomtastic.

DLs have always been the way to shut down pass happy spread offenses. Now they’ve all evolved where the DLs can run, which makes it even harder on Leach.

 

[Mobile Bay]

17ing Christ people. At least give the man one full year. No spring, no summer, and a brand new team.

Back the 17 off the ledge.

Or admit in 2007 if you were the AD at Alabama you would have fired Nick Saban after that one year so we can see how 17 stupid you are,

 

[missouridawg]

I’m an air raid hater and while I do think Vandy having success may poke some holes in the argument, I felt pretty strongly when we hired Leach that it’s not just the fact that he’s going up against better athletes here, he’s also going up against better coaches almost every week too.

The fact that Washington shut him down 8 years in a row doing the same thing kind of proves this theory out a little bit. Why didn’t everyone, even the Oregon’s and UsCs who had competent coaching, replicate what Washington did? No clue. But the SeC hasn’t had any problem at all copying what Dave Odom did to us in week 2.

I hope I’m wrong, but I just think you can’t be one dimensional in this league at all.

 

[Cooterpoot]

Look, it's a little of both. We suck at WR and have a first year/FR QB. Our OL has three new starters & injuries/Covid.
But SEC defensive coordinators are the best in the country. They aren't foolish enough to get out of the three man front knowing we can't run it. And one dimensional teams aren't winning in this league. Leach refused to run the ball for three qtrs vs Vandy after running the first qtr. His play calling is sucking too.

 

[philduckworth]

No one in college football is running the pure Air Raid except for Leach. Every coach that has studied under him has adapted his offense to be mult-dimensional. Let me repeat, every coach had adapted except for Joe Lee Leach.

 

[WrapItDog]

Leach will run the ball if he has the O line and RB to do it. Watch 2008 Tx Tech vs #1 Texas on youtube. The Tx Tech O line was one of the best in the country. Texas had Mac Brown and Muschamp as D coordinator both considered pretty good coaches as a HC and DC. Tech ran the ball 28 times and 50+ passes. The Air Raid was hitting on all cylinders no matter what Texas did. Rush 3 rush 5 Leach had a plan.

Were going to suck until Leach gets the O line and WRs to run his system like he developed at Tech. Will it happen TDB

 

[Maroon Eagle]

I’m not a hater but I’ve said implementation will be much slower than expected.

Look at how Texas Tech and Washington State did during the first season with Leach in charge.

Think of 2020 as extended spring practice.

 

[BulldogBillyCrash]

17ing Christ people. At least give the man one full year. No spring, no summer, and a brand new team.

Back the 17 off the ledge.

Or admit in 2007 if you were the AD at Alabama you would have fired Nick Saban after that one year so we can see how 17 stupid you are,

You’re a special kind of stupid aren’t you or you know nothing about college football?

2007 Nick Saban Alabama team beat a ranked Arkansas and Tennessee...ULM and us was a bad loss but they never lost a game by more than 7 and I assume they looked competitive throughout the games and ended up 7-6

So tell me how in the 17ing hell you attempted to compare 2007 Saban to 2020 Anemic Lxxch

 

[philduckworth]

Leach may be too stubborn, too old or too rich to change or even care. But if he had an ounce of humility he would study and adapt to the Lincoln Riley offense.

Riley still has Air Raid principles that he got from Leach. So Leach could stay true to his Air Raid. But Riley has added tempo, and has embraced OU's tradition of running the ball and being physical up front. He brought a counter-trey running scheme to complement the Air Raid principles. Add a mobile QB to the mix and it is nearly unstoppable.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

Leach may be too stubborn, too old or too rich to change or even care. But if he had an ounce of humility he would study and adapt to the Lincoln Riley offense.

Riley still has Air Raid principles that he got from Leach. So Leach could stay true to his Air Raid. But Riley has added tempo, and has embraced OU's tradition of running the ball and being physical up front. He brought a counter-trey running scheme to complement the Air Raid principles. Add a mobile QB to the mix and it is nearly unstoppable.

Or Kevin Sumlin’s version. We know that works in the SEC. Add some Leach discipline and there you go.

Why again are we not recruiting Ty Keyes.

All a moot point though. You see what he did with Shrader.

 

[pmack65]

A couple of points regarding that game. First Leach had Ruffin McNeal as the OC, don't know if he did or didn't call the plays but Leach doesn't have an OC here. Also during that game Texas played a 4-3 defense , although they would drop the LBS into a zone coverage at times, never played a whole game with an 8 man zone. Also that was 12 years ago, this is a different time and conference. Don't know this for a fact but never heard of anyone playing an 8 man zone back then .

 

[Cooterpoot]

17ing Christ people. At least give the man one full year. No spring, no summer, and a brand new team.

Back the 17 off the ledge.

Or admit in 2007 if you were the AD at Alabama you would have fired Nick Saban after that one year so we can see how 17 stupid you are,

Call Finebaum and cry? **

 

[philduckworth]

A couple of points regarding that game. First Leach had Ruffin McNeal as the OC, don't know if he did or didn't call the plays but Leach doesn't have an OC here. Also during that game Texas played a 4-3 defense , although they would drop the LBS into a zone coverage at times, never played a whole game with an 8 man zone. Also that was 12 years ago, this is a different time and conference. Don't know this for a fact but never heard of anyone playing an 8 man zone back then .

12 years might as well be 50 years in college football. Leach was ahead of the times or at least different. Not so much now. Well I guess he's still different. It's just Leach and the academies that are one dimensional.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Leach is just in it for the payday now.

 

[Kojak.sixpack]

Dropping 8

I’m an air raid hater and while I do think Vandy having success may poke some holes in the argument, I felt pretty strongly when we hired Leach that it’s not just the fact that he’s going up against better athletes here, he’s also going up against better coaches almost every week too.

The fact that Washington shut him down 8 years in a row doing the same thing kind of proves this theory out a little bit. Why didn’t everyone, even the Oregon’s and UsCs who had competent coaching, replicate what Washington did? No clue. But the SeC hasn’t had any problem at all copying what Dave Odom did to us in week 2.

I hope I’m wrong, but I just think you can’t be one dimensional in this league at all.

The fact that leech’s offense has put defenses in the position to drop 8 and rush 3 gives me a lot of hope. People talk about the speed in the sec and how we can’t beat it but I watch a lot of nfl and teams always EAT when a defense drops 8. We need offensive players that are picked for this system. When our talent level gets anywhere close to the defenses talent level we will be in good shape.

 

[QuaoarsKing]

A couple of points regarding that game. First Leach had Ruffin McNeal as the OC, don't know if he did or didn't call the plays but Leach doesn't have an OC here. Also during that game Texas played a 4-3 defense , although they would drop the LBS into a zone coverage at times, never played a whole game with an 8 man zone. Also that was 12 years ago, this is a different time and conference. Don't know this for a fact but never heard of anyone playing an 8 man zone back then .

Ruffin McNeill was his defensive coordinator, not offensive.

 

[msugolf]

Leach will run the ball if he has the O line and RB to do it. Watch 2008 Tx Tech vs #1 Texas on youtube. The Tx Tech O line was one of the best in the country. Texas had Mac Brown and Muschamp as D coordinator both considered pretty good coaches as a HC and DC. Tech ran the ball 28 times and 50+ passes. The Air Raid was hitting on all cylinders no matter what Texas did. Rush 3 rush 5 Leach had a plan.

Were going to suck until Leach gets the O line and WRs to run his system like he developed at Tech. Will it happen TDB

We're basically going to have to be a top 10-15 recruiter on the offensive side of the ball to make it work. And that also means getting most of those recruits out of state as MS doesn't produce a lot of high profile offensive guys familiar with pass heavy schemes.

IMO, its going to be extremely tough for him to get those players

 

[Dubs.sixpack]

Congrats to Dave Odom on his successful transition to Arkansas DC***

View attachment 18716

But the SeC hasn’t had any problem at all copying what Dave Odom did to us in week 2.

 

[Dubs.sixpack]

Leach is just in it for the payday now.

My unpopular opinion is that Leach doesn't care much about the payday and genuinely wants to win here. He's gotten his money before Starkville. He wanted to coach in the SEC and finally got his chance.

 

[pmack65]

Your correct, my mistake, thanks

 

[Russ Wheeler]

You’re a special kind of stupid aren’t you or you know nothing about college football?

2007 Nick Saban Alabama team beat a ranked Arkansas and Tennessee...ULM and us was a bad loss but they never lost a game by more than 7 and I assume they looked competitive throughout the games and ended up 7-6

So tell me how in the 17ing hell you attempted to compare 2007 Saban to 2020 Anemic Lxxch

It's actually a very legit comparison, but it doesn't paint the picture Mobile Bay wants it to pain.

Both coaches were upper 50s, had been at 2 other P5 schools, with similar results, and their first years were both rocky. The difference is Saban is a fundamentals coach, while Leach is a system coach, which takes longer to implement (that explains why they looked so much better in year 1 than we do now, though we had the talent to be better than we are at current). Another thing is that Saban was a better fit for the fanbase and program at Alabama, than Leach is at MSU. The biggest difference though, and maybe a product of the aforementioned fit, is that Saban moved the needle big time in the recruiting class after his first season - from Top 15 to Top 3.

If Leach could get us from Top 25 level to Top 15 level, I would start to feel better.

 

[missouridawg]

Congrats to Dave Odom on his successful transition to Arkansas DC***

View attachment 18716

Ha. Not even going to edit my post.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

We're basically going to have to be a top 10-15 recruiter on the offensive side of the ball to make it work. And that also means getting most of those recruits out of state as MS doesn't produce a lot of high profile offensive guys familiar with pass heavy schemes.

IMO, its going to be extremely tough for him to get those players

^^ what he said

 

[PartTimeGenius]

That's what I see. If it's impossible to shred an 8 man zone or some form of prevent, how do NFL teams do it so consistently?

 

[campshelbydog842003]

I just think you have to have SOME balance. If he's a student of The Art of War, he knows to be where your enemy does not expect you to be. It seems he ignores that principle.

His idea of balance is giving every eligible receiver/back equal amount of touches instead of giving one player (RB) 50 % of the touches and then splitting up the remaining touches with wide receivers

 

[was21]

True. He stated that in his book.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

My unpopular opinion is that Leach doesn't care much about the payday and genuinely wants to win here. He's gotten his money before Starkville. He wanted to coach in the SEC and finally got his chance.

This is correct. Anybody who was in coaching just for money would bail the minute they had plenty. Nobody would put up with the number of hours of work, constant pressure from fans and the challenges with leading a bunch of young men unless they were passionate about coaching. Leach could've easily retired years ago.

 

[johnson86-1]

Leach may be too stubborn, too old or too rich to change or even care. But if he had an ounce of humility he would study and adapt to the Lincoln Riley offense.

Riley still has Air Raid principles that he got from Leach. So Leach could stay true to his Air Raid. But Riley has added tempo, and has embraced OU's tradition of running the ball and being physical up front. He brought a counter-trey running scheme to complement the Air Raid principles. Add a mobile QB to the mix and it is nearly unstoppable.

I don't think it's a lack of humility to not copy Lincoln Riley's offense 6 games in after a 17ed up off season.

I'm concerned about how bad our offense has been and I am thinking Leach is going to have to make some adjustments to his offense for the SEC. That said, what we've done so far, while worse, isn't that different than what happened at TTU and WSU, so I'm not sure it's really a character flaw that Leach hasn't changed his approach yet. He's had rough starts before and the system started to work after getting reps and new players in. I don't think it's crazy that Leach thinks the same thing will happen here or think that the only explanation is stubborness or not caring.

I do wish he would incorporate some running concepts from other air raid based offenses because we clearly need something to help against a 3-8 this year and that might give us more and better reps for his preferred plays because he will see some things besides the 3-8.

 

[o_Hot Rock]

The problem with our fan base is they don’t believe the air raid will work because they don’t think it’s balanced. The air raid is more balanced than any offense State has ever ran. The balance comes from it attacking different parts of field instead of run vs pass.

The problem is the execution level has to be so extremely high in order for it to work. A terrible coach can teach handing the ball off to have limited success of beating teams weaker than you.

We have too many coaches that do not believe in it because they could never do it themselves.

 

[manofsteel]

As soon as Leach forces the defense to defend ALL of the field, the offense will work. The problem is that he doesnt make teams defend the entire field. He has to run the ball. He has to force the defense to play the run and commit bodies to the front 7. When that happens, the deep ball opens up and the defense is stretched too thin. You will win.

Will it happen? Highly doubtful.

 

[ServiceDogg]

Or Kevin Sumlin’s version. We know that works in the SEC. Add some Leach discipline and there you go.

Why again are we not recruiting Ty Keyes.

All a moot point though. You see what he did with Shrader.

Phil Longo is another successful coach/offensive coordinator who said Mike Leach has been the greatest influence on his career.
Longo seemed to get criticized a good bit by fans, but his offenses were very good and looks to still be working at UNC.
One huge difference is a physical, downhill run component.

Longo - “I’m just a very firm believer that the best odds in the house are taking what the defense gives you,” he said. “There are games we run the ball 70 times to win it and games where we throw 70 times to win it. I’m perfectly willing to do either but that’s never decided going into the game. That’s going to be decided by what the defense is taking away."
https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/o...-describes-his-variation-of-air-raid-offense/