Public & Private schools

[nenebskers]

Don't worry this isn't about recruiting! This is just for fun and debate. I find it interesting that Elgin and Pope John have cooped for a few years now while still remaining separate schools. What makes them unique from others is the public private aspect.

How would the following fair if together?

Wahoo and Wahoo Neumann in class B. Enrollment of 375.

West Point and GACC in C1
Enrollment of 252

Falls City and Sacred Heart in C1
Enrollment of 236

David City and Aquinas in B
Enrollment of 285 (barely missed C1 cutoff)

Hartington and Cedar Catholic in C1
Enrollment of 179

Humphrey/LHF and St Francis in C2
Enrollment of 129

O'Neil and St Mary's in C1
Enrollment of 216

I guess Humphrey and LHF are also a private/public already. Still wierd that LHF is with Humphrey public and not St Francis.

Some of these would stay in the same class of the higher school, some would move up. Wahoo could be very good in B in both football and basketball.

Also, how interesting would Elkhorn and Elkhorn South with an enrollment of 1514 in Class A be right now?

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Don't worry this isn't about recruiting! This is just for fun and debate. I find it interesting that Elgin and Pope John have cooped for a few years now while still remaining separate schools. What makes them unique from others is the public private aspect.

How would the following fair if together?

Wahoo and Wahoo Neumann in class B. Enrollment of 375.

West Point and GWCC in C1
Enrollment of 252

Falls City and Sacred Heart in C1
Enrollment of 236

David City and Aquinas in B
Enrollment of 285 (barely missed C1 cutoff)

Hartington and Cedar Catholic in C1
Enrollment of 179

Humphrey/LHF and St Francis in C2
Enrollment of 129

O'Neil and St Mary's in C1
Enrollment of 216

I guess Humphrey and LHF are also a private/public already. Still wierd that LHF is with Humphrey public and not St Francis.

Some of these would stay in the same class of the higher school, some would move up. Wahoo could be very good in B in both football and basketball.

Also, how interesting would Elkhorn and Elkhorn South with an enrollment of 1514 in Class A be right now?

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

What makes them unique from others is the public private aspect.
They have no other choice, its either that or close or not compete in anything. This is a very unique circumstance do to location

 

[retnuh07]

What makes them unique from others is the public private aspect.
They have no other choice, its either that or close or not compete in anything. This is a very unique circumstance do to location

Interesting post. My guess would be that some people in those communities have probably talked about the "what if" through the years. These A schools Columbus/Scotus/Lakeview plus the Fremont, Norfolk, Hastings, Grand Island, North Platte, and Kearney schools have probably talked about "what if" certain years they had been together. It makes for good conversation and speculation. You do see it somewhat in summer baseball and softball. For once it's nice to see a post about public and private schools that isn't about recruiting.

 

[hailvictors2]

A few of those proposed "mergers" would create juggernauts. Elkhorn went up to A for 2 years and rolled teams. They were in the semis one of the 2 years and lost to eventual state champion Millard South. Add Elk South to that and you have a class A powerhouse that will never go away.

The other one that stands out to me is the ONeill-St Mary proposal. That would unquestionably produce more wins because Oneill's class wouldn't change yet they would get the benefit of the athletes St Mary's traditionally has.

 

[Artfour3]

In regards to O'Neill and St. Mary's, I do believe that they used to co-op wrestling and with St. Mary's and it bumped them up to B. The last couple years they have been dominant in C and I believe a big reason is they cut St. Mary's out. They were only getting one or two contributors and it really was hurting them. If you want to wrestle in O'Neill, I think you have to go to Public.

 

[stoeljeins]

In regards to O'Neill and St. Mary's, I do believe that they used to co-op wrestling and with St. Mary's and it bumped them up to B. The last couple years they have been dominant in C and I believe a big reason is they cut St. Mary's out. They were only getting one or two contributors and it really was hurting them. If you want to wrestle in O'Neill, I think you have to go to Public.

You are correct on the wrestling, but St Mary's now has their own wrestling program in Class D and has had state qualifiers. Of course O'Neill was twice runner-up and a state champion since being in Class C. The two schools do co-op in golf, softball, cross country, and Legion Baseball, usually putting them right on the B/C line in softball and golf and B in baseball. @hailvictors2 is correct that a sports co-op across the board would leave them in C-1. Would be interesting in football this year as O'Neill is 5-0 and St. Mary's 4-0 to start the season - 1st time that has ever happened.

 

[hambenkbr]

As a business owner in one of these communities, I can definitely predict our property taxes to double or triple. If our private school closes, those children are added to the cost/per student to educate. Plus, in my opinion, having a choice of schools attracts young couples back to our community.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

As a business owner in one of these communities, I can definitely predict our property taxes to double or triple. If our private school closes, those children are added to the cost/per student to educate. Plus, in my opinion, having a choice of schools attracts young couples back to our community.

LOL Please

 

[Alum-Ni]

As a business owner in one of these communities, I can definitely predict our property taxes to double or triple. If our private school closes, those children are added to the cost/per student to educate. Plus, in my opinion, having a choice of schools attracts young couples back to our community.

Actually wouldn't the cost/student decrease? And the property taxes wouldn't double or triple, land owners already pay tax to the public school whether they have kids attending it or not.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Actually wouldn't the cost/student decrease? And the property taxes wouldn't double or triple, land owners already pay tax to the public school whether they have kids attending it or not.

Thats is correct, but most are not smart enough for simple math

 

[newsie101]

Thats is correct, but most are not smart enough for simple math

You do realize the public schools would have to hire extra teachers don't you?? The biggest cost in any school - public or private - is payroll. If Norfolk Catholic, Christ Lutheran and Lutheran High NE closed and all of their student went to Norfolk Public school system, Norfolk Public's enrollment would go from 4500 to well over 6000. There might - MIGHT - be enough room physically in the buildings for that many extra students. Doubtful though. It would take some juggling and scheduling to accommodate the extra students. But the public school system would have to hire 50-75 extra staff. I don't know what the average costs of a teacher is (salary + benefits), but even if it's 'only' $40,000 a year, that's at least $2,000,000 a year (is that simple enough math for you??) added to the budget. And trust me, that is a VERY conservative estimate.

Don't call me out. My kid is in the public school system. But even simple math isn't over my head.....

 

[coffeedrinker11]

It's a very complicated issue in particular for smaller districts. As of 2013 Nebraska spent $11,579 per pupil. Some other interesting Stats:

Spending per student is >50% higher than average in small (<250 students) districts

Average annual growth in per pupil spending 2004 to 2014 was 6.2% in small districts compared to 3.1% in large districts (>5,000 students)


School districts with <1,000 students have experienced declining enrollment in the past 10 years

About a 20% decline in enrollment in the smallest districts

This information is from a presentation -Funding K-12 Public Education in Nebraska" Presentation to the Revenue Committee and the Education Committee of the Nebraska Legislature Lincoln, given August of 2015.

So in a small district like O'Neal, Hartington, West Point when you have a private school the saving to local tax payers is considerable. This is magnified by the state funding aid formula which many feel penalizes the smaller districts.

The other piece that is not quantified is that because of the private school in the smaller districts public school the class size is smaller than it would be if those students in the private school were attending the public school. In education looking for improvements the one constant is that smaller class size means increased achievement.

A very complicated issue but in my opinion there are huge advantages in the smaller communities to having a private school in the communitie.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

You do realize the public schools would have to hire extra teachers don't you?? The biggest cost in any school - public or private - is payroll. If Norfolk Catholic, Christ Lutheran and Lutheran High NE closed and all of their student went to Norfolk Public school system, Norfolk Public's enrollment would go from 4500 to well over 6000. There might - MIGHT - be enough room physically in the buildings for that many extra students. Doubtful though. It would take some juggling and scheduling to accommodate the extra students. But the public school system would have to hire 50-75 extra staff. I don't know what the average costs of a teacher is (salary + benefits), but even if it's 'only' $40,000 a year, that's at least $2,000,000 a year (is that simple enough math for you??) added to the budget. And trust me, that is a VERY conservative estimate.

Don't call me out. My kid is in the public school system. But even simple math isn't over my head.....

BUT IT IS over your head

 

[Alum-Ni]

You do realize the public schools would have to hire extra teachers don't you?? The biggest cost in any school - public or private - is payroll. If Norfolk Catholic, Christ Lutheran and Lutheran High NE closed and all of their student went to Norfolk Public school system, Norfolk Public's enrollment would go from 4500 to well over 6000. There might - MIGHT - be enough room physically in the buildings for that many extra students. Doubtful though. It would take some juggling and scheduling to accommodate the extra students. But the public school system would have to hire 50-75 extra staff. I don't know what the average costs of a teacher is (salary + benefits), but even if it's 'only' $40,000 a year, that's at least $2,000,000 a year (is that simple enough math for you??) added to the budget. And trust me, that is a VERY conservative estimate.

Don't call me out. My kid is in the public school system. But even simple math isn't over my head.....

I understand that point. The smaller, more rural locations wouldn't have that much more additional overhead (say if St. Mary's joined O'Neill), but with the larger "consolidations", sure there would be an increase in personnel costs. There also likely would be an increase in some state aid, but not likely enough to offset the additional burden.

There really needs to be a way to shift the majority of the burden of school funding off of property owners. There are plenty of folks who utilize the public education system that do not own real property and thus do not make much (or any) of a contribution. I'm just not sure how you would fund public education.

 

[HighPlainsCoach]

Actually wouldn't the cost/student decrease? And the property taxes wouldn't double or triple, land owners already pay tax to the public school whether they have kids attending it or not.

Decrease? So your're going to hire additional teachers, build more facilities, more special services, more custodians, more transportation, etc...for LESS money???? Not only would the bottom line go up, way up, but quite possibly the cost per student rises. Not to mention bond issues, bus purchases, etc., etc., etc.

 

[bgclub_rivals293120]

A community the size of Norfolk would never have one high school so it's creating an unrealistic situation to make an argument on your side.

A community the size of O'Neill would have minimal additional costs. Yes, there would be additional costs, but you can't make an argument of how much of a burden it would be because you don't know the budget of the school. Now if O'Neill/West Point/ect was on a levy override, then yes there could be an issue, however, non of those communities are on a levy override. Realistically, with additional students (roughly 20 per class), the public school would actually get more state aid and the cost to operate the school would be less than what it would be with fewer students. Now if a school were to gain 100+ students per a class then there would be a problem, yet that would be incredibly unrealistic.

 

[HighPlainsCoach]

A community the size of Norfolk would never have one high school so it's creating an unrealistic situation to make an argument on your side.

A community the size of O'Neill would have minimal additional costs. Yes, there would be additional costs, but you can't make an argument of how much of a burden it would be because you don't know the budget of the school. Now if O'Neill/West Point/ect was on a levy override, then yes there could be an issue, however, non of those communities are on a levy override. Realistically, with additional students (roughly 20 per class), the public school would actually get more state aid and the cost to operate the school would be less than what it would be with fewer students. Now if a school were to gain 100+ students per a class then there would be a problem, yet that would be incredibly unrealistic.

Spoken by someone with little knowledge of school funding or staffing. The smaller the school, the LARGER the per student burden. It would mean, quite possibly doubling the number of core subject teachers due to an increase of students and probably raising the number of of co-curricular/support/custodial staff by somewhere between 25-50%. North Platte has one high school, so for Norfolk I don't think it's that far fetched. Grand Island has one high school, Kearney...etc. State Aid doesn't come close to financing a school district. To ignore the benefits that private schools provide by reducing the numbers of students without reducing income is ignorant at best.

 

[mcrock03]

Grand island has one high school?

 

[HighPlainsCoach]

Yes. Northwest, like "Hastings" Adams Central, is a collection of former class 1 (?) rural districts. They don't, as a rule even prefer "Grand Island" in their name. Different board, administration, etc. Completely different district. Sort of like Milliard is different than OPS.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

Yes. Northwest, like "Hastings" Adams Central, is a collection of former class 1 (?) rural districts. They don't, as a rule even prefer "Grand Island" in their name. Different board, administration, etc. Completely different district. Sort of like Milliard is different than OPS.

Spoken by someone with little knowledge of school funding or staffing. The smaller the school, the LARGER the per student burden. It would mean, quite possibly doubling the number of core subject teachers due to an increase of students and probably raising the number of of co-curricular/support/custodial staff by somewhere between 25-50%. North Platte has one high school, so for Norfolk I don't think it's that far fetched. Grand Island has one high school, Kearney...etc. State Aid doesn't come close to financing a school district. To ignore the benefits that private schools provide by reducing the numbers of students without reducing income is ignorant at best.

To ignore the benefits that Public Schools provide by reducing the numbers of students without reducing income is ignorant at best. Imagine the price per student if we had no public schools and Privates schools had to educate all, and services like special education, 504, sas and esl students.

 

[HighPlainsCoach]

To ignore the benefits that Public Schools provide by reducing the numbers of students without reducing income is ignorant at best. Imagine the price per student if we had no public schools and Privates schools had to educate all, and services like special education, 504, sas and esl students.[/QUOTE


That is quite possibly the most insensate post I've ever read. Even so, I'd LOVE to have property tax relief. And, I'm a public school person. So, let's do it. Make every parent responsible for their offspring's education.

 

[HighPlainsCoach]

To ignore the benefits that Public Schools provide by reducing the numbers of students without reducing income is ignorant at best. Imagine the price per student if we had no public schools and Privates schools had to educate all, and services like special education, 504, sas and esl students.

That is quite possibly the most insensate post I've ever read. Even so, I'd LOVE to have property tax relief. And, I'm a public school person. So, let's do it. Make every parent responsible for their offspring's education.

 

[highschoolfootballnut]

That is quite possibly the most insensate post I've ever read. Even so, I'd LOVE to have property tax relief. And, I'm a public school person. So, let's do it. Make every parent responsible for their offspring's education.

I would love to see that happen, It would be very interesting to the shift in the story line for Private schools BUT this is a America, the once land of great opportunity and now the land of entitlement

 

[RCCOB]

You do realize the public schools would have to hire extra teachers don't you?? The biggest cost in any school - public or private - is payroll. If Norfolk Catholic, Christ Lutheran and Lutheran High NE closed and all of their student went to Norfolk Public school system, Norfolk Public's enrollment would go from 4500 to well over 6000. There might - MIGHT - be enough room physically in the buildings for that many extra students. Doubtful though. It would take some juggling and scheduling to accommodate the extra students. But the public school system would have to hire 50-75 extra staff. I don't know what the average costs of a teacher is (salary + benefits), but even if it's 'only' $40,000 a year, that's at least $2,000,000 a year (is that simple enough math for you??) added to the budget. And trust me, that is a VERY conservative estimate.

Don't call me out. My kid is in the public school system. But even simple math isn't over my head.....

Are you talking k-12 enrollment here???

 

[RCCOB]

Spoken by someone with little knowledge of school funding or staffing. The smaller the school, the LARGER the per student burden. It would mean, quite possibly doubling the number of core subject teachers due to an increase of students and probably raising the number of of co-curricular/support/custodial staff by somewhere between 25-50%. North Platte has one high school, so for Norfolk I don't think it's that far fetched. Grand Island has one high school, Kearney...etc. State Aid doesn't come close to financing a school district. To ignore the benefits that private schools provide by reducing the numbers of students without reducing income is ignorant at best.

Definitely not true in O'Neill's case. Just spoke to someone who graduated from there. Used to have close to 100 kids per grade with smaller facilities. They have around 60 per grade right now. He said absolutely nothing would have to change to absorb St. Mary's

 

[Southernblood]

Why did everyone have to make this about taxes and school size feasibility? The case study being a coop so just discuss the schools as coops that don't combine as a consolidation complicating things.

 

[retnuh07]

Thank you. The original post was just for fun and debate but it seems like people always have to turn it in to something else when the words public and private are mentioned. I was looking forward to people discussing something such as how many A football titles the community of Norfolk might have won if the three schools were all together or how about all the great C-1 basketball teams that the schools in Wahoo have had, and could they have knocked off South Sioux City or Scottsbluff? I don't think the original post was started to say the schools should combine. It was just meant to initiate what could have been a fun discussion. So much for that.

 

[HighPlainsCoach]

Sorry to participate in the threadjacking!

 

[Big Red Thoughts]

Sorry to participate in the threadjacking!

why is HighPlainsCoach always angry??

 

[HighPlainsCoach]

why is HighPlainsCoach always angry??

It's a challenge.