Program "now" vs other "down" times

[JonathanW_rivals]

Some fans (I think in many cases, but not all, younger fans who did not experience some of the other droughts during UK basketball history) cite the UK program is at the worst point in it's history. I'm not going to go all the way back to the point shaving scandal that shut us down for a season 75 years ago, or even the entire 60's decade where other than the infamous 66 team that lost in the finals, we won 3 (yes ONLY 3) NCAA games that were not consolation games in that entire 10 year period (60-69). So just looking at the Kentucky seasons after expansion to 48 teams, looking at 3+ year droughts. Here is what we had:

79-82:
Missed tournament
L in 2nd game (equiv of S16)
L in 1st game
L in 1st game

87-91:
L in 1st round
L in S16
missed tournament
probation, not eligible, but would've missed tournament
probation, not eligible

06-09:
L in 2nd round
L in 2nd round
L in 1st round
missed tournament

20-23:
tournament canceled, but we were likely looking at a 2 seed, and were playing well but did have the Hagans drama
missed tournament (worst UK team at least since 80's, maybe in almost 100 years)
L in 1st round (worst UK tourney loss ever)
L in 2nd round

How did we recover those prior times?

83-86:
L in E8 in OT (Dream Game)
L in F4 (3 for 33, not a title but another F4 and return to prominence)
L in S16
L in E8 (not get 4th win vs same team)

92-98 (our 2nd most successful period ever):
L in E8 in OT (all-time classic game, instant return to prominence)
L in F4 in OT
L in 2nd round
L in E8
Championship
L in Final
Championship

10-15:
L in E8 (immediate return to prominence)
L in F4
Championship
nit
L in Final
L in F4

?-?:
TBD, but no doubt that we can return to prominence quickly once again



As an aside, I just noticed how many OT games have ended our season in the tournament. 83, 92, 93, 97, 05 (2 OT), 19, 22. We did win OT games in 73, 98, 99, 00. Still, that is 4-7 in OT tourney games. Our season ended in 7 out of 34 last NCAA-T in OT, that's over 20%!
Hall 1-1
Pitino 0-3 (star player fouled out in 2 of them)
Tubby 3-1
Cal 0-2

 

[know1]

Most of the rebounds came after a coaching change, though. Pitino's came after we got off probation.

 

[MdWIldcat55]

That's some good context.

I think the reason some of us who are older are more patient with Calipari is that we lived through the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Kentucky won one championship between the late 1950s and 1995. For some of us that spanned the period from early boyhood until we were adults with families and careers.

For people born in 1959, the Cats only went to four Final Fours during their whole life until they were in their 30s - one at age 7, one at age 16, one at age 19, and one at age 25, then a dry spell until age 34. And, again, only one of those ended in a championship in 1978.

It didn't destroy the legacy, or cause mass defections of the fan base or erode the idea that Kentucky was Elite among Elites.

Kentucky went to more Final Fours between 2011 and 2015 than between 1967 and 1992. That's pretty remarkable, especially for those of us for whom those years marked the passage from boyhood to middle age.

Winning it all and going to Final Fours will happen again, perhaps as soon as next year. That's what being a true fan of the Big Blue Means: Believe.

 

[track42]

Cal's wife just weighed in.

 

[anon1751545683]

We are 1 season removed from earning a 2 seed.

We have the best recruiting class ever coming in.

This is far from the down times I’ve seen.

 

[STL_Cat]

Yeah, like someone else noted -- most of these down times were in periods of crisis (probation eras) or just following coaching changes. You would think we would be on solid ground considering we have had no changes and the guy that is in charge of the program currently has been in place for 14 years, and according to some is the best we have ever had?

If we are now comparing current Kentucky basketball to "other down eras", that's not exactly a glowing endorsement of the man in charge, is it?

 

[STL_Cat]

We are 1 season removed from earning a 2 seed.

We have the best recruiting class ever coming in.

This is far from the down times I’ve seen.

Man, y'all have REALLY overhyped this class that is coming in next year. Like by a lot.

 

[CatFanOverseas]

Context helps with optimism for better seasons going forward. I think for some (myself included), it's the appearance of disinterest from those in control of the program. I look forward to the return to prominence. I'm just not confident it will be under Calipari. Here's hoping I'm proven wrong

 

[STL_Cat]

I guess the question is -- if you are actually trying to put this in context -- is how many times did the guy who was in charge during these down eras become the same one to pull them out of the down eras and rebound?

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Yeah, like someone else noted -- most of these down times were in periods of crisis (probation eras) or just following coaching changes. You would think we would be on solid ground considering we have had no changes and the guy that is in charge of the program currently has been in place for 14 years, and according to some is the best we have ever had?

If we are now comparing current Kentucky basketball to "other down eras", that's not exactly a glowing endorsement of the man in charge, is it?

I'm guessing @MdWIldcat55, @JonathanW , @Sejonesy and a few others would keep Cal as long as he wanted to be here, even if he stayed ten more years and never cracked another Sweet Sixteen. If I'm wrong, fellas, feel free to chime in. As far as I know, you guys have never gone on record on what would be the final straw that broke it for you.

They support the UK coach no matter what, and are always willing to sing their "at least we're not Indiana" anthem to provide mental comfort when reality gets too close to home.

 

[MegaBlue05]

The 80s were a rough time.

Outside of 1984, we were anywhere from vastly underachieving to mediocre to cheating.

Louisville and IU went to multiple final fours and won multiple championships each.

 

[STL_Cat]

I'm guessing @MdWIldcat55, @JonathanW , @Sejonesy and a few others would keep Cal as long as he wanted to be here, even if he stayed ten more years and never cracked another Sweet Sixteen. If I'm wrong, fellas, feel free to chime in. As far as I know, you guys have never gone on record on what would be the final straw that broke it for you.

They support the UK coach no matter what, and are always willing to use their "at least we're not Indiana" card for their own perspective massage chair to feel better about the program.

It's crazy, really, that we have gotten to the point where we are trying to make ourselves feel better about where we are by comparing where we are to other "down eras in Kentucky history?" I mean for real.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

It's crazy, really, that we have gotten to the point where we are trying to make ourselves feel better about where we are by comparing where we are to other "down eras in Kentucky history?" I mean for real.

Like you noted, most of the down points came during transitions, or right before transitions.

There's a reason we went through two head coaches in 12 years before Cal came here, and why we went through Hall so quickly and why Pitino had to replace Sutton.

Smith, BCG, Sutton, and Hall couldn't hack it here. The down periods directly resulted in finding replacements for all of them.

Cal's been here 14 years, and the program feels as unstable as it did in the worst years of BCG, Smith, and Hall.

 

[WeWant9]

UK will bounce back, but I really don’t see it happening under Cal’s watch.

I would love to be wrong, and see him actually go out on top. But there’s nothing pointing to that in my eyes after the last few seasons.

 

[TheDude73]

I'm guessing @MdWIldcat55, @JonathanW , @Sejonesy and a few others would keep Cal as long as he wanted to be here, even if he stayed ten more years and never cracked another Sweet Sixteen. If I'm wrong, fellas, feel free to chime in. As far as I know, you guys have never gone on record on what would be the final straw that broke it for you.

They support the UK coach no matter what, and are always willing to sing their "at least we're not Indiana" anthem to provide mental comfort when reality gets too close to home.

In all fairness, you were banned for what, 6 months? When you're banned, can you read posts but not respond (sorry, I've never had that experience).

And if that's how people cope with stressful situations, I'm not sure why it matters. Some people deal with it by denial and seeking out positive themes/data, while others scream, yell, pound fists and point to the other side of the coin. Human nature.

We all need to realize that no matter how much we hate or support Cal, no matter how much data we massage and present, and no matter how much both sides try to anchor their opinions into concrete, Cal's tenure at UK is totally out of our hands. At best, he'll be gone at the end of next season, but hopefully does something worth a damn on his way out the door. At worst, he sticks around beyond 2024 and really causes a chasm in the fanbase.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

In all fairness, you were banned for what, 6 months? When you're banned, can you read posts but not respond (sorry, I've never had that experience).

And if that's how people cope with stressful situations, I'm not sure why it matters. Some people deal with it by denial and seeking out positive themes/data, while others scream, yell, pound fists and point to the other side of the coin. Human nature.

We all need to realize that no matter how much we hate or support Cal, no matter how much data we massage and present, and no matter how much both sides try to anchor their opinions into concrete, Cal's tenure at UK is totally out of our hands. At best, he'll be gone at the end of next season, but hopefully does something worth a damn on his way out the door. At worst, he sticks around beyond 2024 and really causes a chasm in the fanbase.

I was never banned.

Where did you come up with that, @TheDude73 ?

I made it clear I was taking a break from the board last year.

 

[TheDude73]

I was never banned.

Where did you come up with that, @TheDude73 ?

I made it clear I was taking a break from the board last year.

Whoops, sorry. Confused you with SosaUK something or another.

 

[STL_Cat]

Like you noted, most of the down points came during transitions, or right before transitions.

There's a reason we went through two head coaches in 12 years before Cal came here, and why we went through Hall so quickly and why Pitino had to replace Sutton.

Smith, BCG, Sutton, and Hall couldn't hack it here. The down periods directly resulted in finding replacements for all of them.

Cal's been here 14 years, and the program feels as unstable as it did in the worst years of BCG, Smith, and Hall.

Correct. If some of these guys think that comparing a guy who is deep into the heart of the middle of his tenure with these other eras is supposed to give hope for the recovery to happen on his watch, I don't think this thread is going to have the desired effect. We came out of these down periods as the result of a coaching change, not with the guy who was in charge when the down era occurred pulling us out.

 

[CatFanOverseas]

Cal's tenure at UK is totally out of our hands. At best, he'll be gone at the end of next season, but hopefully does something worth a damn on his way out the door. At worst, he sticks around beyond 2024 and really causes a chasm in the fanbase.

The unfortunate facts of the case. All we can do is wait.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

This thread is really the last defense for the deflectors. When all else fails, point the historic title or Final Four gaps in our program's history and ignore the reality that those gaps had multiple coaches forced out precisely due the same gaps that @JonathanW and his friends want us to accept as normative.

 

[bluedog79]

What other fan base on any other message board goes through this much trouble to look up all those stats?

I'll wait for a answer.

 

[STL_Cat]

What other fan base on any other message board goes through this much trouble to look up all those stats?

I'll wait for an answer.

Kansas fans with the Ted Owens era come to mind.

 

[bluedog79]

Kansas fans with the Ted Owens era come to mind.

Lolol.....who? Lmao what the hell is a ted Owens

 

[STL_Cat]

Lolol.....who? Lmao what the hell is a ted Owens

The guy that coached Kansas for a while when they weren’t very good.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

We are 1 season removed from earning a 2 seed.

We have the best recruiting class ever coming in.

This is far from the down times I’ve seen.

Highest ranked, but not best recruiting class, because overall it’s a weak class.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

This thread is really the last defense for the deflectors. When all else fails, point the historic title or Final Four gaps in our program's history and ignore the reality that those gaps had multiple coaches forced out precisely due the same gaps that @JonathanW and his friends want us to accept as normative.

Are you really that dumb?
The point of this thread was not to defend Cal. It was to say UK basketball is bigger than Cal or any one coach, AND WE WILL RETURN TO OUR GLORY (probably after a coaching change). That we’ve been down before and recovered, mostly after a coaching change, and will again.

You are a freakin idiot!

 

[STL_Cat]

Are you really that dumb?
The point of this thread was not to defend Cal. It was to say UK basketball is bigger than Cal or any one coach, AND WE WILL RETURN TO OUR GLORY (probably after a coaching change). That we’ve been down before and recovered, mostly after a coaching change, and will again.

I can appreciate you talking that angle. I doubt that’s the direction @MdWIldcat55 will go, though.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Are you really that dumb?
The point of this thread was not to defend Cal. It was to say UK basketball is bigger than Cal or any one coach, AND WE WILL RETURN TO OUR GLORY (probably after a coaching change). That we’ve been down before and recovered, mostly after a coaching change, and will again.

You are a freakin idiot!

You didn't state any of that in your OP.

Be more clear next time. When one takes your full body of work (you're clearly a Cal fan) and puts it together with your OP, it's easy to infer that you were deflecting.

Be more clear next time. That doesn't make me a "freakin idiot"; it just means your original intent was imprecise.

 

[UKWildcats1987]

Love seeing the stats op.

Agree with everyone its time for a change.

 

[Wildcat Sheli]

92-98 (our 2nd most successful period ever):
L in E8 in OT (all-time classic game, instant return to prominence)
L in F4 in OT
L in 2nd round
L in E8
Championship
L in Final
Championship
…
As an aside, I just noticed how many OT games have ended our season in the tournament.
Pitino 0-3 (star player fouled out in 2 of them)

3 of those 5 losses (1992 OT vs Duke, 1995 vs UNC, 1997 OT vs Arizona)—2 of which went to OT— had Tim Higgins on the whistle! (No relation to another ref who also officiated 2005, 2011, 2015 & 2017 tournament heartbreakers)

 

[ruppcat]

The 80s were a rough time.

Outside of 1984, we were anywhere from vastly underachieving to mediocre to cheating.

Louisville and IU went to multiple final fours and won multiple championships each.

That's true. Outside of the F4 in 84 and the E8 in 86, UK's post season chances were pretty bad.

 

[BigRedMachineBigBlueNation]

I guess the question is -- if you are actually trying to put this in context -- is how many times did the guy who was in charge during these down eras become the same one to pull them out of the down eras and rebound?

I’ll answer, none.
Hall pulled us out of the late Rupp era
Pitino pulled us out of the Sutton/Probation era
Cal pulled us out of the late Tubby/BCG era

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

You didn't state any of that in your OP.

Be more clear next time. When one takes your full body of work (you're clearly a Cal fan) and puts it together with your OP, it's easy to infer that you were deflecting.

Be more clear next time. That doesn't make me a "freakin idiot"; it just means your original intent was imprecise.

And you are still a freakin idiot, an illiterate one. I was quite clear.

My full body of work does not say I am a Cal fan. But your's does say you are stupid as ****.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Some fans (I think in many cases, but not all, younger fans who did not experience some of the other droughts during UK basketball history) cite the UK program is at the worst point in it's history. I'm not going to go all the way back to the point shaving scandal that shut us down for a season 75 years ago, or even the entire 60's decade where other than the infamous 66 team that lost in the finals, we won 3 (yes ONLY 3) NCAA games that were not consolation games in that entire 10 year period (60-69). So just looking at the Kentucky seasons after expansion to 48 teams, looking at 3+ year droughts. Here is what we had:

79-82:
Missed tournament
L in 2nd game (equiv of S16)
L in 1st game
L in 1st game

87-91:
L in 1st round
L in S16
missed tournament
probation, not eligible, but would've missed tournament
probation, not eligible

06-09:
L in 2nd round
L in 2nd round
L in 1st round
missed tournament

20-23:
tournament canceled, but we were likely looking at a 2 seed, and were playing well but did have the Hagans drama
missed tournament (worst UK team at least since 80's, maybe in almost 100 years)
L in 1st round (worst UK tourney loss ever)
L in 2nd round

How did we recover those prior times?

83-86:
L in E8 in OT (Dream Game)
L in F4 (3 for 33, not a title but another F4 and return to prominence)
L in S16
L in E8 (not get 4th win vs same team)

92-98 (our 2nd most successful period ever):
L in E8 in OT (all-time classic game, instant return to prominence)
L in F4 in OT
L in 2nd round
L in E8
Championship
L in Final
Championship

10-15:
L in E8 (immediate return to prominence)
L in F4
Championship
nit
L in Final
L in F4

?-?:
TBD, but no doubt that we can return to prominence quickly once again



As an aside, I just noticed how many OT games have ended our season in the tournament. 83, 92, 93, 97, 05 (2 OT), 19, 22. We did win OT games in 73, 98, 99, 00. Still, that is 4-7 in OT tourney games. Our season ended in 7 out of 34 last NCAA-T in OT, that's over 20%!
Hall 1-1
Pitino 0-3 (star player fouled out in 2 of them)
Tubby 3-1
Cal 0-2

79-82 on the heels of a title and a Kentucky boy at the helm well that buys you some time and joe b was good.

87-91 was brought on by ncaa take down of the program. We brought in Pitino to fix the mess

06-09 2 coaching changes

20-23 any coach with a losing season at Kentucky should immediately go to the hotseat. It’s only happened twice in 100 years and cal has the only losing season not brought on by ncaa penalties. It’s been 10 years since a title unlike joe B in 79 .and unlike Joe B cal is not a Kentucky product. This down time for uk bb is unprecedented because nothing is being done to change or improve the situation. It’s status quo with the fanbase more apathetic each year.

 

[RunninRichie]

Man, y'all have REALLY overhyped this class that is coming in next year. Like by a lot.

I'll never get excited about a class or incoming recruit again. After Sharpe and 9-16.

 

[Ash Williams]

We are 1 season removed from earning a 2 seed.

We have the best recruiting class ever coming in.

This is far from the down times I’ve seen.

LOL

 

[G-PIP]

I'll never get excited about a class or incoming recruit again. After Sharpe and 9-16.

I could get excited about recruiting classes if UK’s coach (whoever it is) would do these 3 things:

• Recruit and retain multiple year players to develop into good upperclassmen and solid role players.
• Go hard after and reel in a few of the best transfers.
• Have fair competition so that the players that have the biggest impact on winning games play.

Do those three things and I won’t care how many OADs the coach brings in. But I suspect it will be far fewer than are currently being rolled over annually – which would be telling if true - and UK will be better because of it.

 

[Trinity45]

That's some good context.

I think the reason some of us who are older are more patient with Calipari is that we lived through the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Kentucky won one championship between the late 1950s and 1995. For some of us that spanned the period from early boyhood until we were adults with families and careers.

For people born in 1959, the Cats only went to four Final Fours during their whole life until they were in their 30s - one at age 7, one at age 16, one at age 19, and one at age 25, then a dry spell until age 34. And, again, only one of those ended in a championship in 1978.

It didn't destroy the legacy, or cause mass defections of the fan base or erode the idea that Kentucky was Elite among Elites.

Kentucky went to more Final Fours between 2011 and 2015 than between 1967 and 1992. That's pretty remarkable, especially for those of us for whom those years marked the passage from boyhood to middle age.

Winning it all and going to Final Fours will happen again, perhaps as soon as next year. That's what being a true fan of the Big Blue Means: Believe.

We may have only won one championship during those periods, it was harder to make the tournament back then but we still put a better product on the floor than what Cal has put on the floor since 2015.