POLL: Rupp Name Change

[JPScott]

FWIW, I was searching for the exact date of Thomas Payne Sr. death and ran across the following article by Dick Fenlon published in the Louisville Courier Journal talking about how he thought Payne was poorly cast for the role of pioneer at UK.

Link to article: Louisville Courier Journal September 4, 1971

It's interesting to me that Fenlon references 'a belief common' among black people in Louisville concerning the idea that Rupp chose Payne because he thought he'd be a failure, which Fenlon considers ridiculous.

This is the EXACT discussion we're having 50 years later. Little has changed. It's depressing frankly.

 

[alwaysblue]

I know you mean this a a joke and understand. What gets me is how these same athletes and others who talk all this change never mention the Democratic Party and its roots to the KKK.
If there is to be this big change in America where everything found to offensive to some, then looking into abolishing the Democratic Party for its sins of backing the KKK years ago.
I recommend everyone buy the DVD by Larry Elder, a Black man who is a really good radio host that he made called "Uncle Tom".
Watch this from an educated Black man who knows history. Wish Coach Cal would play this to the team and then ask them to comment on real facts about racism.

Since when does a player with one year under his belt thinks he should have any say just because they give him a microphone. He’s a basketball player who thinks what he says is important.Not

 

[CB3UK]

Why doesnt anyone ever talk about the 1963 Loyola squad that won the NCAAT? Why is it the 1966 Kentucky loss thats heralded as the breakthrough? They beat Duke in the Final Four and Cincinnati in the title game, who at the time, was playing to be the first ever school to win the NCAAT 3 yrs in a row.

Seems like that might be a bigger deal than beating us who hadnt won it since '58.

 

[UK2287]

Where’s the Keion Brooks answer?

“I don’t know enough but yeah, let’s change it”

Change it because coach Cal says it’s ok.

 

[runt65]

All I know is when I was at the State Tournament in 1967 and I was luck enough to walk down to the end of the court at half time to get Coach Rupp's Autograph, he was watching Allen County and the great Jim McDaniel play. I know he was recruiting Jim. That was 1967. I don't think he was racist at all. But the SEC was and it was hard to get the great players to come to UK.

Coach Rupp was there when I was a student at UK, at no time did I hear or see anything racist about him. It was just the opposite with him, he scheduled teams with Black Players when other SEC teams wouldn't. I remember going to the NCAA tourney because some teams wouldn't go because other teams in the tourney had Black Players. He had Black Players on his team when he first started coaching in HS.

 

[dcw62]

As the great"M*A*S*H* Character Sherman Potter would say "HORSE HOCKEY"...That's how I feel about a name change.

 

[jimmybuffet123]

Can we add an option to cut Brooks?

I blame uk for not better preparing him.

 

[ZaytovenCat]

What would the worst poster on the board do then? Not sure if you saw but a whole thread got turned into that talking point just the other day

Sure didn’t. Care to link it for me. Would love to see it.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Unfortunately I think you're coming into this topic with only a partial understanding of the facts. When the University President was pushing him to recruit black players, Rupp was ALREADY recruiting black players. The contention was over recruiting token players, something that Rupp refused to do. But Rupp was indeed recruiting bona-fide black players every year at that time, and in fact UK was the first school in the SEC to recruit a black player (Wes Unseld in 1964).

I've mentioned this before but I think people who read about the argument between Rupp and President Oswald not only don't realize this is about tokenism, but they end up giving Oswald entirely too much credit for UK's efforts at the time. First of all, the work of getting UK prepared and pubicly open to integration in their athletic programs was due to Frank Dickey. By the time Oswald arrived on campus, all the preparatory work was done, it was just a matter of getting a recruit to accept a scholarship offer. Oswald claims he made some recruiting trips early in his administration (for example he claims he went to see Unseld as well as Rupp) but that didn't last long. Rupp also mentions in his tape that he was asking Oswald to loosen the academic requirements in order to help get black players accepted by the school, but Oswald didn't provide any help in that regard.

Also, you claim that Oswald was pushing because "UK was the last school do so". Again if you're talking recruiting, that's absolutely wrong and the opposite of the truth, as UK was the 1st SEC school to recruit a black player. If you mean to sign a black player, that's also wrong. At the time Oswald resigned from UK (March 1968), the only black player in the SEC at the time was Perry Wallace at Vanderbilt. Rupp had actually sign Felix Thruston of Owensboro in 1967 which would have made UK the 2nd team in the SEC with a black player, but Thruston was lost to another school.

If you're interested in this topic, I have a webpage which goes into great detail at:

Adolph Rupp: Fact and Fiction

There's also the Dick Gabriel Video which also has some very good information and interviews from people who were there.

Adolph Rupp - Myth, Legend & Fact

Thanks for a well written, educated and informative post...I will certainly go to your webpage...

Again thanks for the info....Appreciated.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Not "could be". It's easy to look up. Rupp "recruited" black players long before he ever signed one. That is an absolute fact, it's well known that he recruited Beard and Unseld. As far as stepping foot on the court in uniform, Tom Payne played a year before Collis Temple at LSU.

Its probably my fault, but I think I/We are confusing recruitng with signing/playing. Its irrelevaant now, as JP pointed out that I did misunderstand the interview, and the exchamges between Rupp and UK presidents...

 

[IUfanBorden]

You know nothing about Rupp but you should know that IU had one of the most abusive basketball coaches in college basketball history and the IU administration enabled his actions for decades.

Why is it so hard to simply talk basketball?

 

[ruppcat]

Why doesnt anyone ever talk about the 1963 Loyola squad that won the NCAAT? Why is it the 1966 Kentucky loss thats heralded as the breakthrough? They beat Duke in the Final Four and Cincinnati in the title game, who at the time, was playing to be the first ever school to win the NCAAT 3 yrs in a row.

Seems like that might be a bigger deal than beating us who hadnt won it since '58.

Because we're Kentucky and they're not.

When you're the Big Cat everyone comes for you.

 

[Wall Knight Teague]

Too late. The naming rights were sold in January and are locked up through the year 2033. So there's no more money to be made by that route for the foreseeable future.

The actual official name of the place now is Rupp Arena at Central Bank Center. If they change the name, they'll likely just drop the Rupp part and call it Central Bank Center or Central Bank Arena.

That would be my family's final day of business with central bank.

That would be a suicidal business move on their part. This ain't San Francisco.

 

[docholiday51]

Why doesnt anyone ever talk about the 1963 Loyola squad that won the NCAAT? Why is it the 1966 Kentucky loss thats heralded as the breakthrough? They beat Duke in the Final Four and Cincinnati in the title game, who at the time, was playing to be the first ever school to win the NCAAT 3 yrs in a row.

Seems like that might be a bigger deal than beating us who hadnt won it since '58.

Because it holds no value in stirring up controversy

 

[thebluestripes]

For those that voted for a name change, could you please let me know who you are, so I can put you on ignore and never see your worthless opinions again.
Thanks in advance

 

[CB3UK]

so my Rupp arena post got deleted. Hmmmm. Not sure why. But hey. This is the cancel culture we live in

Gotta toe the liberal line, especially on here, because recruiting children to win games is more important than upholding morality, integrity, and lawfullness.

 

[kl40504_rivals]

Why is it so hard to simply talk basketball?

I thought your head coach Bobby Knight was IU basketball.

 

[TankedCat]

This may have been posted on here and I didn't see it. A UNC fan sent it to me

"
Brooks, who is a member of the SEC’s Racial Equality and Social Justice Council, is set to enter his second year with the program this year.

And as more and more athletes are speaking out about societal issues, Brooks isn’t going to stay quiet.

“I think people have a difficult time separating the athlete from the sport that they play,” Brooks said, via ESPN. “Just because I go and play basketball … that does not mean I don’t have morals and values and opinions and views on certain things. We have strong views on topics just like the fans do … They just want us to go out there, entertain them for an hour or two and shut up. But that’s not going to work. That’s not how this is.”

--------------------

you may long for the days where you could just play basketball......

the goto move for Cal is to have another statement of support for Brooks, where he has to delve into the perspective of young athlete of color in todays trying times, etc ., etc in the hopes he continues to be able to walk the narrowing middle ground.

Rex has to get his .02 cents in to hurt recruiting as well

 

[Rembrandt90]

I don't begrudge Keion Brooks his right to an opinion. Good for him. But he is a young person, saying what the media wants young people to say. He is a basketball player, and a good one. But let's not pretend he knows what he is talking about when it comes to Adolph Rupp.

Coach Rupp was a man of his times. He was one of the best basketball coaches of all time, maybe the best. Coach Rupp also integrated UK basketball. Was he perfect? No. Who is perfect? People in the 1960s and 1970s could not possibly have predicted societal norms 50-60 years later.

Nobody is calling for the renaming of Bryant-Denny Stadium, Jordan-Hare Stadium, Ben Hill Griffin Stadium, Williams-Brice Stadium, Neyland Stadium, or Thompson-Boling Arena. None of those men were any less guilty than Rupp of living and serving during different times, under a different set of social norms.

Coach Rupp's accomplishments in developing young men, teaching them discipline, and expanding their earning potential are worthy of the honors afforded to him at the time. None of us can predict what society will look like 50 years from now. The cancel culture has gone way too far.

Aside from protecting his players, Cal should recuse himself from this public discussion due to the obvious conflict of interest, not to mention professional courtesy and common sense.

 

[so_obvious]

Probably an unpopular take: Let's put the naming rights out to bid. Then take that additional revenue it generates and put it towards the facilities to attract recruits.

What if whoever won the naming rights named it.....

RUPP ARENA.

Would be the ultimate win.

 

[so_obvious]

I don't begrudge Keion Brooks his right to an opinion. Good for him. But he is a young person, saying what the media wants young people to say. He is a basketball player, and a good one. But let's not pretend he knows what he is talking about when it comes to Adolph Rupp.

Coach Rupp was a man of his times. He was one of the best basketball coaches of all time, maybe the best. Coach Rupp also integrated UK basketball. Was he perfect? No. Who is perfect? People in the 1960s and 1970s could not possibly have predicted societal norms 50-60 years later.

Nobody is calling for the renaming of Bryant-Denny Stadium, Jordan-Hare Stadium, Ben Hill Griffin Stadium, Williams-Brice Stadium, Neyland Stadium, or Thompson-Boling Arena. None of those men were any less guilty than Rupp of living and serving during different times, under a different set of social norms.

Coach Rupp's accomplishments in developing young men, teaching them discipline, and expanding their earning potential are worthy of the honors afforded to him at the time. None of us can predict what society will look like 50 years from now. The cancel culture has gone way too far.

Aside from protecting his players, Cal should recuse himself from this public discussion due to the obvious conflict of interest, not to mention professional courtesy and common sense.

As usual, very well said. Could not agree more.

 

[tallkat70]

My Dad, who was a UK grad, worked with Tom Payne one summer at a dining hall on Ft. Knox. He said he kept to himself and was pretty much a "no sir/yes sir" kind of guy with the people running things there, kind of like you'd expect the son of a master sergeant to be.

 

[UKRuppster]

On the ESPN Classic site an article about Rupp discussed concerning his time as a high school basketball coach. Rupp had an integrated high school team. Rupp also selected a black player for his Olympic team. The following excerpt is from the article:

“Rupp drew criticism late in his career for failing to recruit African-Americans and only one black ever played for him, 7-foot Tom Payne. Though Rupp talked of recruiting blacks during the 1960s, Kentucky was one of the last major basketball schools to integrate its program. Many branded him a racist, though others thought he was merely reflecting his environment.

“On the positive side for Rupp, he started a black player in his first year of coaching high school basketball in Illinois and selected the first African-American player (Don Harksdale) for a U.S Olympic basketball team.

Had Kentucky lost to Duke in the 1966 semi-final game, Duke could be villianized for having an all white team play Texas Western. The good thing is that UK did beat Duke that year.

From my own research and knowledge on Rupp, I'm with those who feel like Rupp was reflecting his environment. If he were a racist, I can't imagine why he'd have started black players as a high school coach or gone to the great lengths he did with Don Barksdale. It wouldn't make any sense to me, especially not in those days. There wouldn't have been any positive PR for Rupp to gain by being a phony and pretending like he was advocating for blacks. With Don Barksadle and the Olympic team, that was just after Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in baseball. And everyone knows how tough Jackie Robinson had it during his rookie season.

 

[Levibooty]

I do like Cal's approach. Like him, I'm willing to listen because I do not know everything but from what I know now, the story of Rupp's racism is more a product of a cheap shot artist by the name of Feinstein rather than actual evidence. There seems to be more evidence Rupp was not a racist from people of both races. I can understand young black men not knowing what they were getting into at the time of their recruitment back then and believe Houston Hogg's own words about his recruitment bear that out. It is pertinent I think to remember Kentucky, the most northern school in the SEC, was not always looked upon with favor in the deep south. Going to Bama or Miss. back then as a black athlete integrating sports carried a lot of risk. My God Black churches were being bombed! The times were so tense and things were changing so rapidly I think it unfair to assume what was in Rupp's heart which is what I believe is happening with those who brand Rupp a racist even though they never knew the man.

 

[LowCountryCat]

Why is it so hard to simply talk basketball?

Ha ha ha ha look who suddenly wants to change the subject

 

[The_Answer1313_rivals]

I do like Cal's approach. Like him, I'm willing to listen because I do not know everything but from what I know now, the story of Rupp's racism is more a product of a cheap shot artist by the name of Feinstein rather than actual evidence. There seems to be more evidence Rupp was not a racist from people of both races. I can understand young black men not knowing what they were getting into at the time of their recruitment back then and believe Houston Hogg's own words about his recruitment bear that out. It is pertinent I think to remember Kentucky, the most northern school in the SEC, was not always looked upon with favor in the deep south. Going to Bama or Miss. back then as a black athlete integrating sports carried a lot of risk. My God Black churches were being bombed! The times were so tense and things were changing so rapidly I think it unfair to assume what was in Rupp's heart which is what I believe is happening with those who brand Rupp a racist even though they never knew the man.

I think Cal handled it perfectly IMO.

That's how I would have done it too. Listen to everyone and then give an opinion.

I think that's why people got so upset with Brooks in that he admitted to not knowing much about the situation, yet proceeded to give his opinion anyways.

Tho i wonder what would have happened if he said u know what I researched it and I feel like the name should be changed. It seems like we are in a time where people get mad at others just for giving an opinion that differs from others.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Thanks for a well written, educated and informative post...I will certainly go to your webpage...

Again thanks for the info....Appreciated.

I told you the same thing and you arrogantly argued. Go back to your own board.

 

[Tapemaster8]

I listened to his interview....It didn't sound as if he was trying to get UK to allow him.....More so that they(UK) President was giving him a direct "order" to do so. Its why I think Rupp balked on doing so...After all, he built the program. Who was someone to tell him how to run the program HE built?

Either way....whichever story(doc,or the interview), its irrelevant. None of us knew the man. So IMO, it reckless to comment on who he was(as a person). At the end of the day, his racism, or being non-racist, is mostly built on opinions....Personally, I wish folks would just leave it alone...

The only thing Rupp balked at was recruiting Black players just to get Black players. Rupp wanted the best players and a lot of the Black players were some of the best players, but he has trouble getting them to come. Butch Beard, Wes Unseld, Jim Mc Daniels to name a few. He recruited them all and they went elsewhere.

Joe B. changed that view and recruited players that would come off the bench as well as start. Once that was done it was much easier to recruit the best, both black and white. Coach Rupp didn't want to have Black players in non starting roles, because he felt that would make people think he was being prejudiced against the Black kids. I in now way believe that Coach Rupp was prejudiced against anything but losing!

 

[mktmaker]

Only a moronic Marxist would support a name change.. Would be ridiculously stupid to cave.

I am completely against a change to the Rupp Arena name.

And I know a lot about Coach Rupp.



But I think it is inappropriate for you to call someone who disagrees with you "a moronic Marxist."

 

[mktmaker]

The only thing Rupp balked at was recruiting Black players just to get Black players. Rupp wanted the best players and a lot of the Black players were some of the best players, but he has trouble getting them to come. Butch Beard, Wes Unseld, Jim Mc Daniels to name a few. He recruited them all and they went elsewhere.

Joe B. changed that view and recruited players that would come off the bench as well as start. Once that was done it was much easier to recruit the best, both black and white. Coach Rupp didn't want to have Black players in non starting roles, because he felt that would make people think he was being prejudiced against the Black kids. I in now way believe that Coach Rupp was prejudiced against anything but losing!

UK had virtually no chance to land Jim McDaniels. He grew up in Scottsville (25 miles from Bowling Green).

Following is what he said about his visit to Lexington:

“I never felt that warm and fuzzy feeling up there and I did not want to be the first African-American to go up there,” McDaniels said. “I grew up around the red towel and Diddle and I just knew one day if I ever got good enough to play ball I’d want to go to Western Kentucky and be a Hilltopper. It was already in my DNA.”

He was committed to WKU, and almost immediately began recruiting others. (Jerry Dunn and Rex Bailey from Glasgow, Clarence Glover from Caverna, Jim Rose from Hazard.) All but Rose were within 35 miles from Bowling Green.

He also tried to recruit Jerome Perry from Louisville Manual.

We tried hard, but failed, to get Jim Rose (from Hazard).


Aside from the obvious Wes Unseld and then Butch Beard, the player we should have tried to land was Clem Haskins from Taylor County. Clem graduated from high school in 1963 (a year before Unseld).

But rather Clem signed with UofL. After a while he became homesick and transferred to WKU where he became an all-American.

Then he had a solid 9-year NBA career.

 

[CatsIndy2010]

There is too much good (titles won) to think that the arena needs to change its name.

Until a coach can surpass the amount of titles won by Rupp, I say let it stay the same.

Regardless, Life is not fair. And you got to remember that. If life were fair, every coach would have their last name as part of the arena name. Thats fair.

 

[KYCAT78]

88% against. 5% for.

If we were still a democracy, that would be the end of this. In this twisted place, this merely proves to the almighty woke that we are 88% racists because we don’t bow before them.

It is what the cancel culture wants and only applies to their enemies. Kamala Harris family descendants were slave owners but you never hear about that. Yet they want to condemn the Founding Fathers for owning slaves. I grew up in 50s and 60s and in the Democratic South most white people were racist or they just kept quiet. The past helps us learn and move forward but you cannot change history by tearing down monuments

 

[BoulderCat_rivals187983]

I voted no not because of “evidence” or lack thereof, but because renaming things, or tearing monuments down doesn’t and can’t change the past. All we can change is the future.

 

[liveblue92]

paying them $200K

Touche

 

[natchezrule]

Where is the I don’t give a **** option?

As long as you are entertained. Please let Rome burn.

Ps any English teachers stay away

 

[mrhotdice]

Part of me wonders if the movie Glory Road rekindled these fires a bit. I'm not definitely saying that's the case, but that movie portrayed Coach Rupp as being resentful of the blacks on the Texas Western team (or very close to it).

wake up. It’s 2020. I could give a **** if Rupp recruited Blacks, if he resented getting beat by Texas Western, or how he felt about Black players. He is the man who made and put the University of Kentucky on the map. Wonder if Bear Bryant was a racist because it was years before he had a black player. Anyone who buys into this bs is an idiot.

 

[jockstrap_mcgee]

The rationale behind the request is not “Adolph Rupp was racist and the name needs to change.” There have been dozens of pages now refuting that argument, which is not being made.

To me, the rationale behind the request is more of a criticism of the era than of Rupp himself. It is ab issue that of the 8 titles we won, 5 of them came in an era where the vast majority of the members of our program, and the reason for our continued success, would not be allowed to compete. That’s problematic to say the least.

Personally, I think they should change the name to include ALL our basketball heritage.

 

[LowCountryCat]

The rationale behind the request is not “Adolph Rupp was racist and the name needs to change.” There have been dozens of pages now refuting that argument, which is not being made.

To me, the rationale behind the request is more of a criticism of the era than of Rupp himself. It is ab issue that of the 8 titles we won, 5 of them came in an era where the vast majority of the members of our program, and the reason for our continued success, would not be allowed to compete. That’s problematic to say the least.

Personally, I think they should change the name to include ALL our basketball heritage.

You are seriously uninformed. I highly recommend you read Jon Scott's page about Rupp.

Hint: You can literally google Jon Scott Adolph Rupp.

 

[kl40504_rivals]

The rationale behind the request is not “Adolph Rupp was racist and the name needs to change.” There have been dozens of pages now refuting that argument, which is not being made.

To me, the rationale behind the request is more of a criticism of the era than of Rupp himself. It is ab issue that of the 8 titles we won, 5 of them came in an era where the vast majority of the members of our program, and the reason for our continued success, would not be allowed to compete. That’s problematic to say the least.

Personally, I think they should change the name to include ALL our basketball heritage.

Based on your statement every name on anything in that era should be changed. Wow. What a great idea. Maybe we should change the name of the state of Kentucky and all other states in that era. Nothing would be safe.

 

[BlueVelvetFog]

And of course you had the dynamic between Rupp and Bobby Joe Hill during the UK/Texas Western game at the end.