If we have 6 classes of 64, that means you got a top seed playing a two-win team in the opener. That's bad enough in the regular season.
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Playoff un-expansion
- Thread starter Travelin Fan
- Start date
Given the population disparity, the southern half of the state produces a reasonable number of state champions. In recent years both East St. Louis and Rochester have won four state championships. Belleville Althoff, Decatur St. Teresa and Arcola have each won one championship. That is a total of 11 championships.
Then, if one includes teams that are slightly in the northern half of the state geographically speaking but played in a southern bracket, you can add another five championships. This would include titles won by Peoria, Sacred Heart-Griffin, Williamsville, Monticello and Camp Point Central. Heck, even Joliet Catholic won a 5A title playing in the southern bracket. That is a total of 17 state championships won by teams coming out of a southern bracket.
Then, if one includes teams that are slightly in the northern half of the state geographically speaking but played in a southern bracket, you can add another five championships. This would include titles won by Peoria, Sacred Heart-Griffin, Williamsville, Monticello and Camp Point Central. Heck, even Joliet Catholic won a 5A title playing in the southern bracket. That is a total of 17 state championships won by teams coming out of a southern bracket.
Part of that is because the southern part of the state is guaranteed a spot in the title game in classes 1A-6A. For all of the titles you mentioned you have to ask yourself if they would still have 17 championships if the brackets were seeded 1-32.
Thats as silly assumption. The same could be asked of the North. Rochester beats KMac multiple times during the playoffs and yet Mac appears in the North from season to season. SHG meets up with Morris on 3 occasions in the playoffs and yet Morris is usually in the North. Coal City has a bad habit of getting a clock put on them when they were in the South. While the record over the past 10 seasons is 43-17 in favor of the North in title games 1A-6A, your argument could be used to show the North doesnt have that record if their bracket must play a South path to the title. 3 schools alone have won 9 of those titles and gone 9-6 during that period. The odds are slim a North team plows thru the 4A or 6A bracket on the regular. Most of us in the Southern bracket would prefer a Northern schedule in which we get an easy CPS 1st round game.
Agree. I was just responding to the message about titles from the south.
And most people in the North would prefer the southern path and avoid the suburban teams.
Not necessarily, there are going to be play-in games similar to basketball. The winners of those games will play the higher seeds. Sure, a 2-win team may win the play-in game, but there are no guarantees.
Peoria Notre Dame, SHG, Rochester, & ESL would dominate any of the CPS schools in any class which dominate the Northern bracket list of opponents. Maroa (2A) and Williamsville (3A) would likely beat any CPS school up to 6A any class as well. Though I am not nearly as confident. The reality is this... there are very few surprises year in and year out as to who will be in the quarters and semis. Every year it's how will Loyola, ESL, MC, LWE, JCA, Rochester, Lena, Byron, Wilmington, Glenbard fare? And every season it is no surprise when we see them playing deep into November. The difference being the number of publics vs private schools tends to be disproportionate to the North. This is not an argument for separate playoffs. That's a stupid idea. Seeding 1-32 is the only truly fair way to go in all classes. And this board knows well that we are two public school fans here who rather enjoy watching our successful programs beat private schools during the regular season and in the playoffs annually. Personally, I'd love to see a Rochelle, Dixon, Sterling, Marengo, Geneseo, Marmion, Woodstock, Hillcrest, Streator, or Harvard (all suburban regulars). But I cannot profess the same confidence the North would have against Breese, Centralia, Carterville, Highland, SHG, Cahokia, Mt. Zion, & PND. Sometimes Herrin when their line is decent.
Update- I just ran the probabilities of Maroa (2A) vs the CPS schools from which the North beats up on in early rounds. Maroa goes 72-5 when matched against ANY CPS school regardless of class. The losses coming against, Kenwood (7A), Whitney Young (8A), King & Simeon (6A), and Morgan Park (5A). None of those losses are by more than 1 score. Rochester goes 76-1, with a 4 point loss to Morgan Park as their only blemish. I think the South would love the 1st and 2nd round matchups the North gets every season. It's kind of like how the SEC plays any slew of directional schools or satellite campuses during their preseason, with a sprinkle of a Ferris State or Grand Valley State here and there.
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I like how you classify the north based on what would amount to 1 potential first round game against a CPS team. Mind you there was only 2 CPS schools in the bracket in 4A last year.
In years past Morris has typically been a north/south bubble team, depending on which class they fall into, last year they were 4A north, but 2 years ago they were 5A south. When playing in the south they beat Triad by 30 in round 1 and Highland by 16 in round 2. 5A north that year had Naz, Franny, Prairie Ridge, and Sycamore. Yes, it's nice to draw a CPS team in round 1, but top to bottom the north more times than not has the tougher round to the championship game.
Fact check me on whether those are regulars in the playoffs
Of the past 10 seasons, the teams I named were in the playoffs:
Rochelle- 9
Dixon- 9
Sterling- 10
Marengo- 8
Geneseo- 7
Marmion- 6
Woodstock North- 6
Hilllcrest- 9
Streator- 1 YOU GOT ME1
Harvard- their name was in my head due to their success prior to 2014.
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I bolded the part that is a stretch. I am not speaking about if those schools are playoff regulars. But you know this.
I stated a 2A school would dominate if they had the early round games the North has. The premise was 1A-6A is "an automatic bid to the title game for the South" as you stated.
But then again, there is a 4A school down in the South which has a 9-1 record in title games against the North since 2010. And only 2 of those 9 wins were within 1 score. It's a nonsensical point. Now, if you made the assertion the semifinal matchups were tougher, I could see some truth. I'll dive in and see. But the statement of it being an automatic bid is absurd as it lacks in truth.
It is also fluid in the 5A landscape year to year with success factor. 5A went from an absolute bloodbath up north to a much different landscape when two schools got bumped to 6A. Same happed in 4A with Providence and Francis getting bumped but those where because of multiplier waiver not success factor.
The northern brackets have the best and the worst of the extremes. The best are the teams from the Chicago Catholic League (CCL). The worst are the teams from the Chicago Public League (CPL). In recent years the CCL is playing football at an entirely different level than the rest of the state. The 16 teams that play in the best four divisions of the CCL have won 19 state championships over the last five seasons. Inasmuch as they do not compete for the 2A and 1A championships, that means they have won 19 of the 30 championships for which they did compete. That is a success rate of 63% (by only 16 teams). Any serious championship contender will want to avoid those teams in the playoffs for as long as possible, which means they would prefer playing in a southern bracket when possible.
Of the remaining 11 championships, 7 were won by a northern team and 4 were won by a southern team. So, after excluding the CCL teams, the southern teams seem to be winning a reasonable number of championships (though still fewer than the northern teams).
The same thing is true for classes 1A and 2A. Of the available 10 championships, 7 were won by northern teams and 3 by southern teams.
The far southern portion of the state has not done too well of late. The last time a team from that part of the state won a football title, it was a 3A championship won by Harrisburg in 2000 (26 years ago). That was the last year in which six class levels were used. Over the last five seasons two teams from that part of the state did at least make it to a championship game. Mount Carmel (the city) made it to the 3A championship game in 2023 and Nashville made it to the 2A championship game in 2021. Neither team faired very well in their title game appearance.
In the end, I suppose it is a matter of personal preference as to whether or not a person likes the use of northern and southern brackets. I recognize I am in the distinct minority, but I enjoy the regional flavor it brings to the championship games. And, because all the title games are televised, I get to see teams that I otherwise would not have an opportunity to see.
Of the remaining 11 championships, 7 were won by a northern team and 4 were won by a southern team. So, after excluding the CCL teams, the southern teams seem to be winning a reasonable number of championships (though still fewer than the northern teams).
The same thing is true for classes 1A and 2A. Of the available 10 championships, 7 were won by northern teams and 3 by southern teams.
The far southern portion of the state has not done too well of late. The last time a team from that part of the state won a football title, it was a 3A championship won by Harrisburg in 2000 (26 years ago). That was the last year in which six class levels were used. Over the last five seasons two teams from that part of the state did at least make it to a championship game. Mount Carmel (the city) made it to the 3A championship game in 2023 and Nashville made it to the 2A championship game in 2021. Neither team faired very well in their title game appearance.
In the end, I suppose it is a matter of personal preference as to whether or not a person likes the use of northern and southern brackets. I recognize I am in the distinct minority, but I enjoy the regional flavor it brings to the championship games. And, because all the title games are televised, I get to see teams that I otherwise would not have an opportunity to see.
This is a large debate for an easy solution.
6 classes @ 32 teams each.
Anyone who wants more teams, does not like to travel, wants their kids to get more game film or whatever your issue is can opt to the NIT Tournament (secondary playoff system).
Problem Solved.
6 classes @ 32 teams each.
Anyone who wants more teams, does not like to travel, wants their kids to get more game film or whatever your issue is can opt to the NIT Tournament (secondary playoff system).
Problem Solved.
But what problem? What problem did expanding the playoffs create? Outside of the fact that some feel it waters down the regular season and makes 5 wins feel less important or it rewards mediocrity, etc. What new problem did we create?
Why do we care what a 2A school would do against a CPS school? Yes, those are typically easy wins but top to bottom the north is typically more difficult. As I said previously there was only 2 CPS teams in 4A last year.
We know Rochester is Rochester and no one is disputing that. The question is whether Rochester or any other southern school would have the same success if the classes were seeded 1-32. Would Rochester have 9 titles if they regularly had to go through some combination of Montini, JCA, Morris, Geneseo, Sycamore, or St. Francis before even reaching the title game?
None of those are south or outside the metro east though... that was my point... The days of DuQuoin, Marion, Mt. Carmel the Snake Pit Town, Harrisburg, Effingham, Mt. Vernon, and on and on being relevant to the rest of the state in football are gone.
Idk, but most years during the original dynasty for Rochester the brackets didn't include any of those programs and when they did, they weren't making it to state to play Rochester, so who knows. You could be right, but we've seen Rockets go 5A, win it, and they've beaten a CCL, and they've had to go thru SHG in the South, and they're 9-1 against the north in title games... pretty good sample size to say they'd "probably" still have plenty of titles in 4A... just my opinion though.
Since the dynasty began, all games for Rochester in playoffs, I'll leave off 2009, which I would personally call the true start to the dynasty. That team was real good, but Metamora was gooder that time...
2010 (And so it begins... "if only we hadn't fumbled" -QND probably, And just like that, Metamora became Nevamora, 1 seed, Title #1)
Freeburg 49-7
Effingham 53-2
QND 23-21
Metamora 50-17
Alleman 24-7
North QF's - Mendota, Sandwich, Richmond-Burton, Alleman
2011 (The " Game... 5 seed, Title #2)
QND 56-35
Manteno 42-28
Bishop McNamara 55-21
Charleston 41-13
Richmond-Burton 42-39
North QF's - Richmond-Burton, Evergreen Park, Stillman Valley, Sandwich
2012 (Ain't no stopping us now... Luther Vandross IYKYK, 2 seed, Title #3)
Mahomet-Seymour 43-0
Charleston 42-14
PND 46-21
Harrisburg 49-22
Alleman 43-18
North QF's - Chicago Brooks, Evergreen Park, Alleman, Coal City
2013 (The South's Catholics ain't no match... 2 seed, Title #4)
Taylorville 42-7
Breese Mater Dei 50-21
Althoff 50-21
Alleman 46-21
Geneseo 16-8
North QF's - Phillips, Geneseo, Harvard, Rockford Lutheran
2014 (Phillips 66 Gas and some matches... 3 seed, Title #5)
Mt. Zion 65-35
QND 35-14
BCC 56-21
Herrin 28-9
The Chicago Mon-Star's Phillips 49-28
North QF's - Rockford Lutheran, Phillips, Coal City, Manteno
2015 (And to Earth, we fell... 4 seed, Lost in Quarterfinals)
Alton Marquette 52-7
Murphysboro 47-20
Althoff 42-46
Phillips spanked Althoff 51-7 for the title
North QF's - Phillips, Geneseo, Marengo, Rockford Lutheran
2016 (A return to our Dynastic roots... 5 seed, Title #6)
Bethalto Civic Memorial 52-7
Mt. Zion 63-21
Althoff 48-47
Canton 49-21
Johnsburg 38-14
North QF's - Herscher, Phillips, Johnsburg, Genoa-Kingston
2017 ("I gotta drain the weasel man. Morris Chestnut lookin' boy... 1 seed, Title #7)
Fairbury Prairie Central 42-6
Althoff 41-23
Herrin 56-14
Highland 31-14
Morris 24-21
North QF's - Rochelle, Morris, Chicago Raby, Dixon
2018 (No scientific explanation... 4 seed, Lost in Semi's)
Breese Central 53-27
Pontiac 47-28
Taylorville 64-26
Bishop McNamara 42-52
North QF's - IC Catholic, Marengo, Coal City, Richmond-Burton
2019 ("The gang goes to 5A and beats a CCL" ope, scuse me, 2 seed, Title #8)
LaSalle-Peru 68-26
Highland 42-7
SHG 49-35
Mascoutah 56-34
Chicago St. Rita 42-28
North QF's - Coal City, St. Francis, Richmond-Burton, IC Catholic
2020 (Vid)
2021 (Back to 4A, The Academy is... not playing Rochester for a title, 1 seed, Lost in Semi's)
Cahokia 48-0
Paris 55-20
Freeburg 57-28
SHG 42-49
JCA spanky-doodles the Rats 56-27 for title.
North QF's - JCA, Genoa-Kingston, Richmond-Burton, Phillips
2022 (A Deja Vu is usually a glitch in the Matrix, 4 seed, Lost in Semi's)
Effingham 45-14
Breese Central 42-0
Carterville 41-28
SHG 42-56
The Rats beat the New Lenox Catholics 44-20 for the title
North QF's - Richmond-Burton, Prov, Rochelle, St. Francis
2023 (The return to glory... 1 seed, Title #9)
Lincoln 59-14
Coal City 45-3
Breese Central 49-13
Murphysboro 42-14
Burbank St. Laurence 59-38
North QF's - Sandwich, West Chi Wheaton, IC Catholic, St. Laurence
2024 (We don't talk about it... 4 seed, Lost on opening night)
PND 58-59
Chicago DePaul defeats Mt. Zion 40-6 for the title.
North QF's - DePaul, St. Laurence, Coal City, Dixon
2025 (Revenge, and a Double Chocolate Espresso Montini for the lady (cheering on The Rats)... 3 seed, Lost in Title - 1st time btw that happened)
Taylorville 56-7
Waterloo 55-21
SHG 41-35
Breese Central 43-42
Montini 33-47
North QF's - Montini, Coal City, Morris, Geneseo
Ahh, the memories...
