Player Improvement year to year.

[zappaa]

Is it safe to say when all of us watched Geo, RHJ, Mathis, Caleb and Paul as contributing freshman.
ALL of us were super excited at the players they would evolve into after 3 years.
I know when I saw RHJ run the floor as a first year player, I thought he would be the best wing in the B1G one day.
Mathis right behind him.
Geo had the swag and intangibles.
PM a tough miserable guy to play against if used correctly
Is it an indictment of the coach these guys didn’t get obviously better every year?
Myles improved, credit where it’s due

 

[ScarletDog]

100% agree. I’ve said recently that it almost looks like this team takes 7 months vacation and then comes back thinking they got better. Skills don’t improve, bodies doesn’t improve, chemistry doesn’t improve, ability to just play the game doesn’t improve. And our schemes don’t improve. We should maybe start using that shiny new practice facility or lease the hoops portion to the gymnastics team.

 

[whofrewdatmataRU13]

I've been thinking the same thing, what is everyone doing in the off-season.

 

[#1 RUFan]

Agreed. Regressed so much in every way. Strength and conditioning is questionable. RHJ looks out of shape or physically sick, hopefully not the latter. No question they were a better team with Young, Johnson, and Mathis. The team looks out of shape and lackadaisical. No enthusiasm whatsoever. Lack of pure shooters is a major issue but more effort is needed. If the seniors don't want to put in the effort, sit them and develop the younger kids. This season is lost anyway if they don't turn it around.

 

[zappaa]

There’s nothing like games.
You can practice all day and you can’t recreate the energy, speed and urgency the actual games create.
You’ve all heard that a million times and it’s true….better known as having seasoned experience.
These guys should be much better players based on their contribution level when they were kids.
Something is amiss.
It’s also not fixable by simply saying “hit your shots” there’s a hell of a lot more to our demise than poor shooting

 

[Roy_Faulker]

There are no elite athletes on this team. JY is as was MM. That is what I see as the biggest issue. JJ looks like he has it but to me we have taken a step back in athleticism needed to compete in the BIG.

Those types of players are needed so guys like GB, RHjr, etc. can play within themselves and excel. Without them we are asking guys who move in slow motion to play in a way they are not capable of this league.

Without the athletes RU needs to change how they play to be smarter and watching the last few games it’s not happening.

 

[superfan01]

Perfectly fair to question the off-season work ethic. Seems like these guys didn't put in the same work other teams did. The hunger on this team is also non existent.
ohh well.

 

[ColonelRutgers]

Talk about work ethic or whatever but these guys cannot shoot. No amount of work is going to fix that. Maybe you can improve a little but just like a hitter in baseball I think being able to shoot is something you're born with. Being able to shoot can make up for a lot of sins. And when you're that inept shooting and find yourself in a hole every game, I'm sorry, everyone is human. That's deflating.

 

[Mr. Magoo1]

Perfectly fair to question the off-season work ethic. Seems like these guys didn't put in the same work other teams did. The hunger on this team is also non existent.
ohh well.

Agree. Also think they are very low-ceiling players to begin with. Lots of flaws and one-dimensional types

 

[AshCatchEm]

I honestly think some of those guys got worse. THAT is pathetic

 

[zappaa]

Agree. Also think they are very low-ceiling players to begin with. Lots of flaws and one-dimensional types

RHJ and Geo were anything but low-ceiling players as kids.
PM used correctly on the wing as an annoying player to play against does not have a low ceiling.
Neither does Cliff, Hyatt or Jones
Something is going on with development

 

[ScarletDog]

I said in another thread that I think some of this may have to do with Poke’s staff. He’s had a lot of churn and possibly his supporting cast is not doing its part. Obviously falls on Pikes shoulders, but if you don’t have a staff they will help guys develop you cannot achieve it. Need better personnel on the court and off.

 

[rudad02]

There are no elite athletes on this team. JY is as was MM. That is what I see as the biggest issue. JJ looks like he has it but to me we have taken a step back in athleticism needed to compete in the BIG.

Those types of players are needed so guys like GB, RHjr, etc. can play within themselves and excel. Without them we are asking guys who move in slow motion to play in a way they are not capable of this league.

Without the athletes RU needs to change how they play to be smarter and watching the last few games it’s not happening.

Good point.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

There is nothing wrong with the development.....the players you are asking to compete with better players, better athletes is not the issue.

It doesn't take much to see, similar to football, what a plus-plus athlete, skill-sets, leaping abilities looks like.....I didn't see these compliants 2 years ago or a year ago.

If a player is not athletic, not an elite player in comparison to the bulk of college basketball, why is that suddenly the players lack of development??

We can run Noah Vedral out there again as a QB for another 3 years for football, he is never going to be better, faster, stronger, quicker than Adrian Martinez, Sean Clifford or the Penn State Backup, the Ohio State QBs, the Michigan QBs, the Maryland QB, Tua's brother....there is a starting point and reality.....everybody works hard folks.....

Why would fans blindly think basketball athletes are different from football speed/athletic ability or skill-sets....??

Jacob Young is a Top 1% athlete period, doesn't matter what the sport is.....Mathis has plus athletic ability.....even if you retainee those two players, do they have the basketball team aspects, smarts, expanded skill sets to cover up all 5 positions on the court?? And even if they were here, they lack the other aspects that allow you to truly win (75% of college basketball starts upstairs and do you understand how to play the game OR players are just not coachable)......

Even with limited athletes, hard workers, overachiever types like Eugene, Myles, they're not Corey Sanders....

Recruiting has to deliver real players, real competitive bodies, who aren't afraid of contact, who don't look lost or timid....

If you are going to make "mistakes", in recruiting, you have to miss with athletic abilities (even if they can't "shoot").....miss and gamble on elite size/wingspan.....gamble on strength and toughness....the fan base whines about shooters, shooters who cannot do anything else, don't belong on a B1G floor or competition.

We have players (at least 5), who do not have a definitive strength in speed, size, athletic ability, arm length, physical skill sets....it becomes whether RU is in the development into that type of player in 2 years/3 years and hope they get to that level of athletic ability OR do you invest and truly compete for the players necessary at this level, so at most, the player takes half of a season or at most 1 season to be game ready.

 

[koleszar]

There’s nothing like games.
You can practice all day and you can’t recreate the energy, speed and urgency the actual games create.
You’ve all heard that a million times and it’s true….better known as having seasoned experience.
These guys should be much better players based on their contribution level when they were kids.

True but you can prepare for it. They look like they just rolled out of bed on a Saturday morning to play a pick up game at the local park. 5 years in a college strength and conditioning program, Harper looks like his regiment was to eat cheeseburgers and Geo looks like he still doesn't know where the weight room is. I'm not looking for Adonnis here, but there should be at least some physical transformation after 5 yrs.

 

[zappaa]

There is nothing wrong with the development.....the players you are asking to compete with better players, better athletes is not the issue.

It doesn't take much to see, similar to football, what a plus-plus athlete, skill-sets, leaping abilities looks like.....I didn't see these compliants 2 years ago or a year ago.

If a player is not athletic, not an elite player in comparison to the bulk of college basketball, why is that suddenly the players lack of development??

We can run Noah Vedral out there again as a QB for another 3 years for football, he is never going to be better, faster, stronger, quicker than Adrian Martinez, Sean Clifford or the Penn State Backup, the Ohio State QBs, the Michigan QBs, the Maryland QB, Tua's brother....there is a starting point and reality.....everybody works hard folks.....

Why would fans blindly think basketball athletes are different from football speed/athletic ability or skill-sets....??

Jacob Young is a Top 1% athlete period, doesn't matter what the sport is.....Mathis has plus athletic ability.....even if you retainee those two players, do they have the basketball team aspects, smarts, expanded skill sets to cover up all 5 positions on the court?? And even if they were here, they lack the other aspects that allow you to truly win (75% of college basketball starts upstairs and do you understand how to play the game OR players are If a player is not athletic, not an elite player in comparison to the bulk of college basketball, why is that suddenly the players lack of development??

We can run Noah Vedral out there again as a QB for another 3 years for football, he is never going to be better, faster, stronger, quicker than Adrian Martinez, Sean Clifford or the Penn State Backup, the Ohio State QBs, the Michigan QBs, the Maryland QB, Tua's brother....there is a starting point and reality.....everybody works hard folks.....

Why would fans blindly think basketball athletes are different from football speed/athletic ability or skill-sets....??

Jacob Young is a Top 1% athlete period, doesn't matter what the sport is.....Mathis has plus athletic ability.....even if you retainee those two players, do they have the basketball team aspects, smarts, expanded skill sets to cover up all 5 positions on the court?? And even if they were here, they lack the other aspects that allow you to truly win (75% of college basketball starts upstairs and do you understand how to play the game OR players are just not coachable)......

Even with limited athletes, hard workers, overachiever types like Eugene, Myles, they're not Corey Sanders....

Recruiting has to deliver real players, real competitive bodies, who aren't afraid of contact, who don't look lost or timid....

If you are going to make "mistakes", in recruiting, you have to miss with athletic abilities (even if they can't "shoot").....miss and gamble on elite size/wingspan.....gamble on strength and toughness....the fan base whines about shooters, shooters who cannot do anything else, don't belong on a B1G floor or competition.

We have players (at least 5), who do not have a definitive strength in speed, size, athletic ability, arm length, physical skill sets....it becomes whether RU is in the development into that type of player in 2 years/3 years and hope they get to that level of athletic ability OR do you invest and truly compete for the players necessary at this level, so at most, the player takes half of a season or at most 1 season to be game ready.

Mathis left because he was dropped from the starting line up and saw his minutes reduced.
A far cry from improving every year and becoming one of the better players in the league….like you and the rest of us thought he would.
I say that knowing he was limited by his funky ball rotation and basketball IQ.
Why did I think Harper was going to be the best wing in the league and why did I think Geo was going to be an incredible gamer and instinctual great player?

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

Mathis left because he was dropped from the starting line up and saw his minutes reduced.
A far cry from improving every year and becoming one of the better players in the league….like you and the rest of us thought he would.
I say that knowing he was limited by his funky ball rotation and basketball IQ.
Why did I think Harper was going to be the best wing in the league and why did I think Geo was going to be an incredible gamer and instinctual great player?

Mathis actually did improve, year to year, he had no rotation or a knuckleball shot and reformed his shot and rotation from year 1 to year 2.....his 3% did improve year to year....

However, Mathis was not a "combo guard" like Young.....Mathis did not or was not asked to handle the ball, dribble to initiate offense, he was right hand-dominate....he did not have a fluid FT form or shot...

Harper was not recruited at a higher level because he played in HS at a weight that was not a "wing or guard" he was bigger/heavier and asked to play inside at Bosco.....it was his fundamentals that were sound and intact....the actual discussion at the time of his arrival was (from some fans), on whether he should actually redshirt to get himself in the shape/condition that allowed him to compete.......but if you can rebound, make passes and are not afraid of contact, Harper obviously is better than what was in place or on the roster, in Issa Thiam.....Thiam was a capable shooter, but could you ask him to battle inside for rebounds etc??

There is nothing wrong with developing but the critics of RHJ, just need to stop expecting him to be 225 lbs....OR maybe that is not who he is as a player, at age 21, vs some others we will play at age 23, 23.5, 24 year olds......

Schools like Purdue, actually redshirt players.....there is all week to discuss how rarely that happens, but it takes a staff willing to sell that and get buy-in, once you have enough talent in place.....Harper is actually the unicorn at age 21 and a senior, vs some frosh or redshirt frosh at age 20, littered all over Power 5 programs.....

 

[zappaa]

Tez’s basketball IQ regressed, or never taught, one of the two

 

[The RUT]

Some of you aren’t going to like this, but this class gives me FIGG vibes.

 

[rume]

Tez’s basketball IQ regressed, or never taught, one of the two

May be a combination of both, but recruiting has been bad. Lack of shooters or athletic playmakers is glaring. There appears to be no cohesive offensive philosophy. Mostly pointless passing and isolation. Young covered up a lot of these shortcomings.

 

[RU84]

There is nothing wrong with the development.....the players you are asking to compete with better players, better athletes is not the issue.

It doesn't take much to see, similar to football, what a plus-plus athlete, skill-sets, leaping abilities looks like.....I didn't see these compliants 2 years ago or a year ago.

If a player is not athletic, not an elite player in comparison to the bulk of college basketball, why is that suddenly the players lack of development??

We can run Noah Vedral out there again as a QB for another 3 years for football, he is never going to be better, faster, stronger, quicker than Adrian Martinez, Sean Clifford or the Penn State Backup, the Ohio State QBs, the Michigan QBs, the Maryland QB, Tua's brother....there is a starting point and reality.....everybody works hard folks.....

Why would fans blindly think basketball athletes are different from football speed/athletic ability or skill-sets....??

Jacob Young is a Top 1% athlete period, doesn't matter what the sport is.....Mathis has plus athletic ability.....even if you retainee those two players, do they have the basketball team aspects, smarts, expanded skill sets to cover up all 5 positions on the court?? And even if they were here, they lack the other aspects that allow you to truly win (75% of college basketball starts upstairs and do you understand how to play the game OR players are just not coachable)......

Even with limited athletes, hard workers, overachiever types like Eugene, Myles, they're not Corey Sanders....

Recruiting has to deliver real players, real competitive bodies, who aren't afraid of contact, who don't look lost or timid....

If you are going to make "mistakes", in recruiting, you have to miss with athletic abilities (even if they can't "shoot").....miss and gamble on elite size/wingspan.....gamble on strength and toughness....the fan base whines about shooters, shooters who cannot do anything else, don't belong on a B1G floor or competition.

We have players (at least 5), who do not have a definitive strength in speed, size, athletic ability, arm length, physical skill sets....it becomes whether RU is in the development into that type of player in 2 years/3 years and hope they get to that level of athletic ability OR do you invest and truly compete for the players necessary at this level, so at most, the player takes half of a season or at most 1 season to be game ready.

So the problem is recruiting.

 

[Goku]

I’m sorry. But if I had the skills and natural ability of some of these guys I would be in the gym all the time working on improving my craft. How Montez never thought to add a little jumper in the lane to his slashing game is beyond me. Why Ron never worked on his body and became a slimmer and more chiseled athlete is disappointing. Their games just stagnated

 

[RUJMM78]

Perfectly fair to question the off-season work ethic. Seems like these guys didn't put in the same work other teams did. The hunger on this team is also non existent.
ohh well.

That can't be true because of the comments from the media and coaches that players spent endless hours at the practice facility during the off season.

 

[RU Husky]

I honestly think some of those guys got worse. THAT is pathetic

Yup and the regression is exponential. They bear no resemblance to the players who first took the court. Slower, less energetic, less athletic and their shooting is even more erratic. Also looks like they couldn't give a sh*t. Very sad.

 

[Caliknight]

The lax coach has a mantra. Not just a year older. A year better. Our rev sports could use that motto.

 

[kcg88]

Our coaching staff is 4 former PGs. Not surprised Cliff hasn't gotten much better.

 

[Roy_Faulker]

There is nothing wrong with the development.....the players you are asking to compete with better players, better athletes is not the issue.

It doesn't take much to see, similar to football, what a plus-plus athlete, skill-sets, leaping abilities looks like.....I didn't see these compliants 2 years ago or a year ago.

If a player is not athletic, not an elite player in comparison to the bulk of college basketball, why is that suddenly the players lack of development??

We can run Noah Vedral out there again as a QB for another 3 years for football, he is never going to be better, faster, stronger, quicker than Adrian Martinez, Sean Clifford or the Penn State Backup, the Ohio State QBs, the Michigan QBs, the Maryland QB, Tua's brother....there is a starting point and reality.....everybody works hard folks.....

Why would fans blindly think basketball athletes are different from football speed/athletic ability or skill-sets....??

Jacob Young is a Top 1% athlete period, doesn't matter what the sport is.....Mathis has plus athletic ability.....even if you retainee those two players, do they have the basketball team aspects, smarts, expanded skill sets to cover up all 5 positions on the court?? And even if they were here, they lack the other aspects that allow you to truly win (75% of college basketball starts upstairs and do you understand how to play the game OR players are just not coachable)......

Even with limited athletes, hard workers, overachiever types like Eugene, Myles, they're not Corey Sanders....

Recruiting has to deliver real players, real competitive bodies, who aren't afraid of contact, who don't look lost or timid....

If you are going to make "mistakes", in recruiting, you have to miss with athletic abilities (even if they can't "shoot").....miss and gamble on elite size/wingspan.....gamble on strength and toughness....the fan base whines about shooters, shooters who cannot do anything else, don't belong on a B1G floor or competition.

We have players (at least 5), who do not have a definitive strength in speed, size, athletic ability, arm length, physical skill sets....it becomes whether RU is in the development into that type of player in 2 years/3 years and hope they get to that level of athletic ability OR do you invest and truly compete for the players necessary at this level, so at most, the player takes half of a season or at most 1 season to be game ready.

So I’m a little confused by your post - I feel like on one hand your saying we have athletes that just aren’t as good as the athletes they are competing against…and on the other your saying we don’t have good enough athletes to keep up with our opposition which has superior athletes…

 

[goru7]

Our coaching staff is 4 former PGs. Not surprised Cliff hasn't gotten much better.

No doubt missing Jay Young who coached our big men

 

[bethlehemfan]

Jacob young improved. Eugene improved tremendously. Cory improved. Harper has improved. McConnell has improved. Various amounts granted. Some guys have had injuries. Some guys maybe don’t work hard enough. Our recruiting ratings are below mid level and somehow we finished in the middle of the pack. That doesn’t happen without coaching up unless you think the rankings were wrong and we’ve brought in these great players that are just languishing. I don’t see a logical flow here.

 

[zappaa]

Jacob young improved. Eugene improved tremendously. Cory improved. Harper has improved. McConnell has improved. Various amounts granted. Some guys have had injuries. Some guys maybe don’t work hard enough. Our recruiting ratings are below mid level and somehow we finished in the middle of the pack. That doesn’t happen without coaching up unless you think the rankings were wrong and we’ve brought in these great players that are just languishing. I don’t see a logical flow here.

Not what I see

 

[superfan01]

I’m sorry. But if I had the skills and natural ability of some of these guys I would be in the gym all the time working on improving my craft. How Montez never thought to add a little jumper in the lane to his slashing game is beyond me. Why Ron never worked on his body and became a slimmer and more chiseled athlete is disappointing. Their games just stagnated

I don't understand Harper. Obviously I don't know what he does in off-season but his physique is not changed at all. If anything he looks out of shape. I don't get it.
The team looks like they took a few months off this summer. Did a few light workouts and then showed up for fall semester

 

[kcg88]

Jacob young improved. Eugene improved tremendously. Cory improved. Harper has improved. McConnell has improved. Various amounts granted. Some guys have had injuries. Some guys maybe don’t work hard enough. Our recruiting ratings are below mid level and somehow we finished in the middle of the pack. That doesn’t happen without coaching up unless you think the rankings were wrong and we’ve brought in these great players that are just languishing. I don’t see a logical flow here.

Young: improved from junior to senior but don't forget he redshirted and was awful for most of his junior year.

Eugene: definitely improved

Sanders: Not really? He was the same player, Eddie was just that bad at coaching.

Harper: he improved but has seemingly gotten worse now.

McConnell: no. His freshman year in the big ten was his best season.

Geo: Improved his two point percentage but his 3P% got worse and worse. Wash.

 

[RUsojo]

Is it safe to say when all of us watched Geo, RHJ, Mathis, Caleb and Paul as contributing freshman.
ALL of us were super excited at the players they would evolve into after 3 years.
I know when I saw RHJ run the floor as a first year player, I thought he would be the best wing in the B1G one day.
Mathis right behind him.
Geo had the swag and intangibles.
PM a tough miserable guy to play against if used correctly
Is it an indictment of the coach these guys didn’t get obviously better every year?
Myles improved, credit where it’s due

“Geo hasn’t improved since Corey left” - “And it’s pretty crazy to realize at 30+’minutes a night for four seasons he’s no better than he was as a freshman.”

 

[bethlehemfan]

Young: improved from junior to senior but don't forget he redshirted and was awful for most of his junior year.

Eugene: definitely improved

Sanders: Not really? He was the same player, Eddie was just that bad at coaching.

Harper: he improved but has seemingly gotten worse now.

McConnell: no. His freshman year in the big ten was his best season.

Geo: Improved his two point percentage but his 3P% got worse and worse. Wash.

We mostly agree. A lot of improvement. Young improved a lot particularly from his Texas days. McConnell has improved in every facet except his shooting which will likely even out. I don’t measure improvement solely by shooting. Harper is not worse and his assists and rebounds are up. Some of what people see as regression is also a function of how other teams play you as well. Harper rightfully so draws a lot of attention. In any event hard to say there is not development when low ranked classes end up being top 40 teams. Just not logical. There’s a lot of turnover this year. Much younger guys having to step in. Geo hurt.

 

[bethlehemfan]

“Geo hasn’t improved since Corey left” - “And it’s pretty crazy to realize at 30+’minutes a night for four seasons he’s no better than he was as a freshman.”

Geo has been a main focus of defenses versus when he was a freshman he was not. He’s also suffered from injuries.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Everyone looking for answers. The primary reason is pretty simple.

The leaders of the team are in their 4th and 5th year. That is a long time. They had a bad offseason. (Not NIL) They don’t bust it like a Rutgers Basketball player is supposed to. We have a culture problem that needs to be fixed.

 

[Perricone7]

This board is collectively losing its mind lol. Eugene O is like the prototype for player development lol (and Rutgers played a huge role in that). Jacob young had the greatest in season improvement I’ve ever seen. Harper went from a freshman with potential to fringe all conference. Myles Johnson improved. Cliff has also improved, but this board hyped him some much the expectations were unreasonable.

 

[RUInsanityToo]

This board is collectively losing its mind lol. Eugene O is like the prototype for player development lol (and Rutgers played a huge role in that). Jacob young had the greatest in season improvement I’ve ever seen. Harper went from a freshman with potential to fringe all conference. Myles Johnson improved. Cliff has also improved, but this board hyped him some much the expectations were unreasonable.

The feeding frenzy is getting pretty entertaining. According to the masses, Pike can't recruit, can't develop, can't coach, is too positive in the media and can't control a bad culture problem. Not to worry though......they'll turn their pitchforks to Pat Hobbs as soon as they realize Pike wont be fired this season or offseason.

 

[zappaa]

The feeding frenzy is getting pretty entertaining. According to the masses, Pike can't recruit, can't develop, can't coach, is too positive in the media and can't control a bad culture problem. Not to worry though......they'll turn their pitchforks to Pat Hobbs as soon as they realize Pike wont be fired this season or offseason.

Not enough good players will do that.
He was hardly simply positive with the media, he was completely over the top

 

[DHajekRC84]

This board is collectively losing its mind lol. Eugene O is like the prototype for player development lol (and Rutgers played a huge role in that). Jacob young had the greatest in season improvement I’ve ever seen. Harper went from a freshman with potential to fringe all conference. Myles Johnson improved. Cliff has also improved, but this board hyped him some much the expectations were unreasonable.

You absolutely nailed the list. Problem is there are another 20-25 players on the court during the last 5 years. Too be fair. The players have to own it too. Have zero insight to their individual commitment and work efforts.
We need a big man coach to help.